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  • #46
    Originally posted by apod View Post
    Is that a different name for the BCDT TAM or are they two different beasts?
    BATLS - battlefield advanced trauma life support and would be alot more detailed than the above TAM

    Members of the medical school attended this course a number of years ago as Observers
    I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Liachta Cultaca View Post
      BATLS - battlefield advanced trauma life support and would be alot more detailed than the above TAM

      Members of the medical school attended this course a number of years ago as Observers
      LC.Thanks for the clarification.
      Now if they could go as observers how come we haven't sent people on the course?Or have we?And if we did how come the knowledge isnt filtering down to those who would need it most?
      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by apod View Post
        LC.Thanks for the clarification.
        Now if they could go as observers how come we haven't sent people on the course?Or have we?And if we did how come the knowledge isnt filtering down to those who would need it most?
        apod, from experience mate - any 'observer' i have ever encountered on a course has actually completed the full course.

        the term 'observer' is generally only used to get people past the red tape and on the course and once they turn up they are very much part of the course and will be fully integrated by the instructors.

        i would be fairly confident that any members of the Irish DF who did attend as 'observers' actually successfully completed the course.

        would be good if we did more of this though - joint training.
        RGJ

        ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

        The Rifles

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        • #49
          Originally posted by apod View Post
          LC.Thanks for the clarification.
          Now if they could go as observers how come we haven't sent people on the course?Or have we?
          On medical courses, there are a lot of medico-legal issues around peoples qualifications and registration, (especially if they are not registered in the country where the course is being run). Some of the practical procedures taught may be outside the remit of the trade of the observer, or the continuing practical experience to maintain competence may not be available.

          I know from having been an observer on a civvy Advanced Trauma Life Support course that a lot of the procedures that were used on these courses were not actually taught in great depth, it was more the situations where they would be used and the processes behind deciding when to use them.

          But saying that someone has passed the course is saying they are competent to do everything on the course, which if someone is from outside the jurisdiction has got a lot of issues.

          Originally posted by apod View Post
          And if we did how come the knowledge isnt filtering down to those who would need it most?
          Setting up these courses and getting them recognised and accredited is very time-consuming, selecting and training suitable people as trainers, getting a syllabus agreed, having a suitable pool of people to provide oversight and peer review of the content, just to mention a few points. I won't even start on the hoops that have to be jumped through for an employer to provide legal indemnity for employees who follow the procedures taught, in case of a claim if anything goes wrong.

          The content requires constant review as well, when I was an Advanced Life Support instructor there was constant updating and changing of the syllabus, we rarely had two courses in a row with no changes - and that was just relatively simple algorithms to treat a fairly definite condition (cardiac arrest).

          I have no idea what the Irish Army position is, just pointing out it's a bit more complicated than at first glance.
          Last edited by Flamingo; 5 May 2011, 23:43.
          'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
          'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
          Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
          He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
          http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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          • #50
            Current US IFAK contains, to the best of my knowledge;

            Combat Application Tourniquet
            Nasopharangeal Airway
            Quikclot or other haemostatic agent
            Rolls of gauze
            Elastic bandage
            Roll of tape
            Gloves
            Pill pack - antibiotics and ibuprofen.
            Paramedic shears


            This alllows self/buddy aid for bleeding and airway until the team medic can take over.
            Last edited by concussion; 7 May 2011, 12:32.
            "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

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            • #51
              Originally posted by concussion View Post
              Current US IFAK contains, to the best of my knowledge;

              Combat Application Tourniquet
              Nasopharangeal Airway
              Quikclot or other haemostatic agent
              Rolls of gauze
              Elastic bandage
              Roll of tape
              Gloves
              Pill pack - antibiotics and ibuprofen.
              Paramedic shears


              This alllows self/buddy aid for bleeding and airway until the team medic can take over.
              Issued?
              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

              Comment


              • #52
                Yes, personal issue. The US have also embraced the concept of the 'Combat Lifesaver' who is a non-medical soldier trained in care under fire, tactical combat care and evacuation. Where feasible, ie where it would impact on their primary duty as, eg, a rifleman , they provide enough trauma care (airway maintenance, treatment of catstropic bleeding, pneumo/hemothorax, IV's) to the casualty until a medic can take over.

                Attached Files
                "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

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                • #53
                  Prior to our deployment at least 80% of the soldiers were certified in Combat Lifesaver. The training is good but like everything it requires constant reinforcement. What helps too is that there is an extra Combat lifesavers medical bag that is also carried - this supplements everything carried by the medics. It has proven itself in Operational environments - when one of our units hit an IED it was the medic who needed to be treated - he was able to direct the people treating him (which helped) before passing out. Their actions saved his life.
                  There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ARNGScout View Post
                    Prior to our deployment at least 80% of the soldiers were certified in Combat Lifesaver. The training is good but like everything it requires constant reinforcement. What helps too is that there is an extra Combat lifesavers medical bag that is also carried - this supplements everything carried by the medics. It has proven itself in Operational environments - when one of our units hit an IED it was the medic who needed to be treated - he was able to direct the people treating him (which helped) before passing out. Their actions saved his life.
                    Now THAT medic is NAILS !!!
                    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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                    • #55
                      Now THAT medic is NAILS !!!
                      Yes he is, considering it was a double amputation (legs), and the disorientation of the blast itself, it is amazing he managed to stay composed and keep his head straight to be able to direct them. I certainly couldn't have done that - I think I would have lost the plot totally. The remainder of the crew were critical also with severe wounds - the nine line listed them as litter urgent (we had an hour tops to get them back in and to the hospital) but they were all treated at the scene by their fellow soldiers who had all done the Combat lifesaver course.
                      There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                        Talking with Df paramedics very recently on the subject of iv's, intubation etc and they said under phecc they're not allowed do it anymore. Cue very puzzled looks all round
                        If the Army is training medics under Phecc, you are right there are a lot of things that they won't be able to do that will surprise people. Not sure about Iv's but a paramedic should be able to add an airway no problem. One thing that is a no no under phecc is tourniquets under any level of qualification. As Rhodes said before, the way massive bleeds and amputations are dealt with is with pressure and dressings, lots of them if need be. I have heard though that the Army hasn't fully signed up to Phecc so maybe thats how they are going to get around it. In a battlefield situation if a tourniquet is needed, a tourniquet is needed and thats it.

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                        • #57
                          Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics can use a tourniquet, only an advanced paramedic can give an IV



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                          • #58
                            i presume individual soldiers can also use tourniquets and are trained accordingly?
                            RGJ

                            ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                            The Rifles

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics can use a tourniquet, only an advanced paramedic can give an IV



                              http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Clini...s%20matrix.pdf

                              Not true.......see http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Clini...s%20Matrix.pdf
                              I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics can use a tourniquet, only an advanced paramedic can give an IV



                                http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Clini...s%20matrix.pdf
                                That must have been updated over the last while then. I remember talking to a paramedic a couple of years ago and he said that tourniquets were not allowed to be used but I could have gotten it wrong. It was also before phecc had properly came into play so things were still being decided on. It still leaves open the possibility that if your average soldier is only going to be trained to EFR level, that he/she will still not be able to apply a tourniquet and will have to wait on a paramedic unless some agreements or exceptions can worked out.

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