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  • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
    ???
    The EPV never went to tender. There was RPV (Request for proposals) which outlined a basic requirement. Proposals were accepted, reviewed, then in the midst of a recession priority was given to replacing the 3 P21 type OPV. The EPV plans were shelved. We did well to manage that, given the extreme financial stress the country was under. We were in 2008 looking at 2 OPV with an option for a third, and 1 EPV with an option for a 2nd. Since 2010 we have seen delivery of both initially ordered OPVs, the option for a third exercised, and a fourth opv due for delivery later this summer.
    I am sure that the Proposals received back in 2008 have well expired, almost 10 years on, and the requirement has moved on too.
    Your right I stand corrected

    I meant there wasn’t huge guidance as to what capabilities the NS wanted


    It could have ended up in 1 proposal carrying a single MOWAG and another carrying 20

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    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      Your right I stand corrected

      I meant there wasn’t huge guidance as to what capabilities the NS wanted


      It could have ended up in 1 proposal carrying a single MOWAG and another carrying 20
      To be honest is there much point in looking at what was looked for in 2008? Then out of EEZ operations were an ambition, now we've had 3 years of Med operations and were looking at Piracy ops before that, were any of those operations, or the instability (and weapons) of the areas considered then?

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      • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
        This, this, a thousand times this.

        A 20k AOR would spend six months of the year on EU ops in the Med or off the Horn of Africa, 3 months of the year on humanitarian and drugs interdiction work in the Carribbean, a month doing work up drills with the rest of the NS and Army, and then spend 2 months in the paint and body shop - there would simply be no time for chasing Haddock thieves...
        Problem is something like that is not just a lump of steel in the water, its a huge infrastructure and support mechanism thats not there. We don't have a history of huge capital spends on single items and then deploying them away from home for large portions of the year. the political mindset is not there to even attempt to sell it to the tax payer.

        Its not even an aspiration at this point just a mindset.

        Eithne will go sooner than we think and there needs to be a build in place to replace her. If that build is an existing OPV class thats fine, if its something a step up with a flight deck even better, but rest assured its not going to be what we thought it might be 10 years ago.
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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        • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
          Why do I think your AOR idea is a dumb one?
          I don't think you have done your research here, apart from maybe owning the latest issue of Janes'.

          NONE of the irish naval flotilla are equipped to refuel from an AOR. Not one, and the location of the refuelling point (under the RHIB davits) make this an impossibility.
          Can you see it just behind the stairway? No
          L.É. Samuel Beckett by Pádraig Barrett, on Flickr
          So by all means get your grey tanker for use overseas, but know for the rest of the time it will be doing nothing when at home for the other 9 months of the year. While the NS do train in RAS, the only items transferred by stay are parts or post.
          Keep in mind also that an AOR requires a crew experienced in the handling, storage and transfer of hazardous liquid cargo. This is why most navies have these type of ship operated by experienced civilian crews.
          Are we sure about refueling point? I am wondering what are the deck stand pipes under the red firebox level with the Bridge area on the p 60's. The RHIB area is heavily congested with the boat and liferafts. Our ships, except CPV's, have long range, an oiler per se is not yet critical, however the EPV/MRV could have a give away capacity in their fuel store and water to keep at least one ship on station. It could be done in port or outfit accordingly to RAS at sea. The Canadian AOR Asterix is a temporary acquisition while a new vessel is being considered. They are the fourth owners and must have been acquired for change or very little money.

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          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            Are we sure about refueling point? I am wondering what are the deck stand pipes under the red firebox level with the Bridge area on the p 60's. The RHIB area is heavily congested with the boat and liferafts. Our ships, except CPV's, have long range, an oiler per se is not yet critical, however the EPV/MRV could have a give away capacity in their fuel store and water to keep at least one ship on station. It could be done in port or outfit accordingly to RAS at sea. The Canadian AOR Asterix is a temporary acquisition while a new vessel is being considered. They are the fourth owners and must have been acquired for change or very little money.
            According to wiki $20 m for vessel purchase..... $300 m for conversion

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            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
              According to wiki $20 m for vessel purchase..... $300 m for conversion
              $300m for conversion on top of the $20m for the original vessel and they still lifted parts from HMCS Protecteer. Yep the Cannuck way of doing things and the pork barrel motto of - we don't care as long as we build it here.

              When they could of gone to Hyundai and got brand new Polar Class like the HMNZS Aotearoa for nearly the same money ($350m) or a standard 18000t AOR from them or DSME for about $180m.

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              • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                Lets just look at the "bare bones" Type 31, even with a very limited spec it's going to be at least £250 million with questions about it's purpose and capabilities, for the money we are talking about we can't even afford that, so what exactly are we looking at? €150 million gets you something like the Spanish BAM, or maybe a Holland class but they are just OPV's, capable ones and more future proof but still extremely limited for anything outside of EEZ operations.

                The reason I suggested an AOR a long time ago was for the reasons ropebag posted, the EU navies do have gaps in the logistics chain and given our self imposed limitations something like an AOR could fly even if it's spending all it's time doing multinational operations, while being an actual capability that would be of value to the rest of the EU.
                It is also an issue of how Ireland wants to position itself. IMO a lot of value can be gained by providing support fucntions, rather than fighting ones. And it would fly better in interior politics. Also create plenty of goodwill in Europe. The Irish showing up with a big tank of fuel and plenty of Guinness
                Last edited by Graylion; 24 March 2018, 15:53.

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                • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                  $300m for conversion on top of the $20m for the original vessel and they still lifted parts from HMCS Protecteer. Yep the Cannuck way of doing things and the pork barrel motto of - we don't care as long as we build it here.

                  When they could of gone to Hyundai and got brand new Polar Class like the HMNZS Aotearoa for nearly the same money ($350m) or a standard 18000t AOR from them or DSME for about $180m.
                  The Norwedian AOR with massive hospital - better than RFA Argus actually - is 300M$. That's what I'd be after. The Berlins for the Canucks are 1.1 G$ each. I dunno why. Italy is buying a LHD for that kind of money.

                  BTW where'd we tie up a 180m AOR?
                  Last edited by Graylion; 24 March 2018, 15:49.

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                  • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                    ...BTW where'd we tie up a 180m AOR?
                    Naples and Djibouti.

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                    • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                      Naples and Djibouti.
                      Based on home drydocking we have to keep beam at 21 meters or less or around the dimensions of HMDS Absalon

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                      • There is only one place you can tie up an AOR if you want it to be any use, that's a fuel Jetty.
                        Rathmullan it is then.

                        Joking aside, there are specific regulations regarding where and how a tanker can load cargo, and where it can lay-by when not in use. In summary it will be well away from all other shipping unless empty and inerted.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                        • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                          There is only one place you can tie up an AOR if you want it to be any use, that's a fuel Jetty.
                          Rathmullan it is then.

                          Joking aside, there are specific regulations regarding where and how a tanker can load cargo, and where it can lay-by when not in use. In summary it will be well away from all other shipping unless empty and inerted.
                          Tie up permanently at Whitegate (although though it comes in as MDO)???

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                          • Berth 2 in whitegate is quite confined (and very busy). Berth 1 is for crude delivery mostly.
                            MDO?
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                              Berth 2 in whitegate is quite confined (and very busy). Berth 1 is for crude delivery mostly.
                              MDO?
                              Marine Diesel Oil

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                              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                                The Norwedian AOR with massive hospital - better than RFA Argus actually - is 300M$. That's what I'd be after. The Berlins for the Canucks are 1.1 G$ each. I dunno why. Italy is buying a LHD for that kind of money.

                                BTW where'd we tie up a 180m AOR?
                                And the South Koreans are building the second and third Dokto LHD for half what the Italians are including the CMS from the Daegu Class frigates.

                                Unless the INS wants to buy Frigates and completely change its maritime Conops what use is an AOR?

                                As we know an enhanced patrol vessel with sealift capabilities design exists - the Absalon Class. Get a licence to build one at a Korean super yard like DSME or HHI or if that is not possible get them to knock a concept clone off using a COTS radar, sensor and weapons fitout similar to the Becketts to keep it under Eur200m.

                                The HNoMS Maud beyond the current ward and surgical theatre space does not actually have a permanent 48-bed hospital. The officers lounge, non-crew lounge, and visitors cabins can be converted into standard and Critical Care wards using stowed equipment.

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