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  • Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
    Seems fairly adaptable Dev ......We could always stretch a P60. [ATTACH]8137[/ATTACH]
    You could but with high risk as it hasn't been done before (bearing in mind the NBG ISTAR TF ex in Sweden required around 530 lane metres and 20xTEU.

    LPD4000 has 290 lane metres internally (and 400 lane metres on the flight deck). So it would be ballpark what is required IMHO.

    Put it this way:
    P61
    Length 90m
    Displacement 1900t

    LPD8000
    Length 133m
    Displacement 8300t

    Your talking about increasing the length by nearly 50% and increasing the displacement by >430%

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    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      You could but with high risk as it hasn't been done before..
      i think high risk is a lovely way of putting it - trying to turn a P60 into a vessel that could carry a full Mech Inf Coys's worth of gear is like trying to turn an F1 car into a Ford Transit.

      the capability you're talking about is a vessel with about half the load carry of one of RFA's Bay Class LSD(A)'s - a ship that size is never, ever in a million years going to also be able to handle like a sports car, which within Irish doctrine its going to have to do as a Patrol vessel, regardless of what other descriptive terms its given.

      we need to seperate the ideas behind these two potential classes of ships - the EPV is a larger, crunchier PV that can go to more dangerous places, that can operate with other EU naval forces in a near-war environment (think of the evacuations from Libya in 2011) and that can operate with helicopters.

      the MRV is a large, probably rather simpler vessel that is about moving A to B and then supporting A while its there - so it takes its Mech Inf Group to its chosen location, offloads it, and acts as hospital, HQ, Aviation Support point and if neccesary, getaway vehicle. it needs cranes, a GBFO flight deck, a RORO capability, and - IMV - a CIWS capability (of some type..) to deal with terrorist attacks with ATGW.

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      • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
        i think high risk is a lovely way of putting it - trying to turn a P60 into a vessel that could carry a full Mech Inf Coys's worth of gear is like trying to turn an F1 car into a Ford Transit.

        the capability you're talking about is a vessel with about half the load carry of one of RFA's Bay Class LSD(A)'s - a ship that size is never, ever in a million years going to also be able to handle like a sports car, which within Irish doctrine its going to have to do as a Patrol vessel, regardless of what other descriptive terms its given.

        we need to seperate the ideas behind these two potential classes of ships - the EPV is a larger, crunchier PV that can go to more dangerous places, that can operate with other EU naval forces in a near-war environment (think of the evacuations from Libya in 2011) and that can operate with helicopters.

        the MRV is a large, probably rather simpler vessel that is about moving A to B and then supporting A while its there - so it takes its Mech Inf Group to its chosen location, offloads it, and acts as hospital, HQ, Aviation Support point and if neccesary, getaway vehicle. it needs cranes, a GBFO flight deck, a RORO capability, and - IMV - a CIWS capability (of some type..) to deal with terrorist attacks with ATGW.
        Yes and no.

        The EPV RFP was to be a larger more capable PV (but didn't specify what new capabilities it would have (weapons, what it would/could carry, etc). However, from what I heard the concept was for a blue/green ship (a vessel larger than a OPV/LPV (but probably with similar armament to the OPVs/LPVs) capable of carrying army equipment to overseas missions etc). It was also to have a flight deck.

        We don't know yet what the concept of the MRV will be except that it will go overseas, with the ability to operate with helos and carry freight.

        I've suggested (I haven't seen it anywhere official AFAIK (it was minded at by the NS that they wanted big)) that to be meaningful and usefully, that freight capability must be a Mech Inf Coy/EUBG Irish contingent (can vary but around coy strength). But the WP doesn't specify how much freight.

        I also suggested (supported by the EPV RFP), that the NS has certain constraints (including crew size, beam, draft and €€€€€) that any vessel must stay within.

        In an ideal world, we'd be talking a huge vessel (that we'd have to build a new Naval Base for), with big crew (that the NS couldn't man), able to protect itself (that we can't afford) and that could carry an Inf Bn Gp (see huge vessel and able to protect itself).

        I also suggested (again supported by the EPV RFP and arguable WP) that the MRV will spend the bulk of its time at sea being another (larger) PV doing fishery protection etc.

        There is no perfect off the shelf design that meets the requirements. I haven't factored in cost too much when looking around as could just take a red marker to the SSMs, SAMs, CIWS, etc. But it needs some self defence capability. In an EU/PfP scenario it would likely be operating with other vessels (but not necessarily when UN). It could possibly be deploying an expeditionary early entry force (eg NBG ISTAR TF or a Chad type op). But it is unlikely that it will have to fight/force its way into port or offshore.

        There appear to be vessels out there that aren't a million miles from the size of the EPV. There are designs that are lean manned. It doesn't necessarily have to be able to carry the troops (but it would be of benefit IMHO (thinking about it the RFP ruled that out)).

        There are vessels out there that have the speed, endurance etc that have the PV and MRV bit matching up. But these don't necessarily tick the other boxes.

        For me the issue possibly is the freight capacity - to me it doesn't make sense to spend probably €100m on a new vessel with a freight capacity, when it will not be big enough to carry the freight you need it to. That isn't good VFM (you'll still be chartering civvy vessels). But do the vessels on the market have the space? Do we bring too much? Could we leave some behind and fly it in?

        For me preference with be:
        RoRo (with some LoLo on deck (crane(s) required)
        Similar armament to OPVs (probably some more 20 and 12.7mm)
        TBH LoLo space may be more valuable that excessive (under-utilised flight deck space (maybe room for max 2 medium lift helos). It would be nice but not essential.
        It also isn't essential that it would act as a HQ (chances are we wouldn't be providing it) or acting as a hospital ship (we are more likely to be able to act as a Corps HQ that be able to man a field hospital). Something like an onboard C3 container and hospital beds for maybe 10 would suffice
        Last edited by DeV; 13 January 2016, 18:29.

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        • I've been told before when I suggested the Damen LPD on boards.ie that at 25 meters wide they couldn't fit in Haulbowline...

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          • To use your analogy, we are probably looking for something like a Nissan Pathfinder crewcab

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            • Originally posted by Boreas View Post
              I've been told before when I suggested the Damen LPD on boards.ie that at 25 meters wide they couldn't fit in Haulbowline...
              Which is quite possibly why the EPV RFP said 16-20 metres

              The Damen LPDs are 24.8-27.2 metres depending on the model (I've suggested the LPD8000). It's draft is also too deep, it is too slow and too short ranged, there many also be endurance issues. But if the NS was to base the MRV on it, potentionally they could ask for a smaller flight deck and reduce the number of troops carried by 200 (or to zero).

              Compare the specs with the Crossover XO131L - it's ok for length, beam, speed, troops, helos (but there's no info on cargo, draft etc)

              However, there is no off the shelf design that meets all the requirements. Therefore modification of an existing design(s) is required
              Last edited by DeV; 13 January 2016, 19:24.

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              • IMO as an absolute minimum - if we're to rule out CIWS etc. on cost grounds and on the basis that it will always be operating as part of a larger better equipped group - for self protection the EPV/MRV will still require, in addition to standard OPV fit: air search radar, Link-11/22, SRBOC.

                But if we're to decide that not even that level of protection is a requirement e.g. that deployments will never be any more problematic than they currently are, then I don't really see the point in the EPV/MRV. Stick to the current way of doing things and hire in civilian vessels when necessary. Concentrate on getting vessels that are optimised for the main role of the NS, that sounds like VFM to me.

                If the DF/State would like to have guaranteed access to a civilian RO/RO LO/LO vessel, perhaps a public/private deal could be done. Vessel could pay for itself doing commercial work most of the time, as a bonus it could be part of the training for maritime college/NS personnel. If there's a deployment needed, it goes back to work for the DF.

                If however the DF envisions a NS role in more dangerous environments...
                Last edited by pym; 13 January 2016, 19:27.

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                • Originally posted by pym View Post
                  ...deployments will never be any more problematic than they currently are, then I don't really see the point in the EPV/MRV...
                  agree entirely. if the requirement is a civilian sealift capability that mirrors the Rosslare ferry in both mode and operation, i see no point whatsoever in buying it, painting it grey and sticking a wedge of MG's on it. hire it in when you need it, don't pay for it when you don't.

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                  • Originally posted by Boreas View Post
                    I've been told before when I suggested the Damen LPD on boards.ie that at 25 meters wide they couldn't fit in Haulbowline...
                    Plans for Haulbowline include a large berth outside the basin, to accommodate these larger vessels.
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                    • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                      Plans for Haulbowline include a large berth outside the basin, to accommodate these larger vessels.
                      What about the Graving Dock in Cobh? 25m is much too large to fit into it, so which Graving Dock would the NS use instead?

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                      • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                        What about the Graving Dock in Cobh? 25m is much too large to fit into it, so which Graving Dock would the NS use instead?
                        Cork Dockyard's open width is 21.3m (breadth 22.5m).

                        Dublin Graving Dock is 24.5m wide (and isn't its future uncertain?)

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                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          Cork Dockyard's open width is 21.3m (breadth 22.5m).

                          Dublin Graving Dock is 24.5m wide (and isn't its future uncertain?)
                          So the Damen's would be too large and some of them to big for Dublin (and I can imagine the extra costs for the NS having to use it). Is that what was driving the sub 20m width spec?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pym View Post
                            IMO as an absolute minimum - if we're to rule out CIWS etc. on cost grounds and on the basis that it will always be operating as part of a larger better equipped group - for self protection the EPV/MRV will still require, in addition to standard OPV fit: air search radar, Link-11/22, SRBOC.

                            But if we're to decide that not even that level of protection is a requirement e.g. that deployments will never be any more problematic than they currently are, then I don't really see the point in the EPV/MRV. Stick to the current way of doing things and hire in civilian vessels when necessary. Concentrate on getting vessels that are optimised for the main role of the NS, that sounds like VFM to me.

                            If the DF/State would like to have guaranteed access to a civilian RO/RO LO/LO vessel, perhaps a public/private deal could be done. Vessel could pay for itself doing commercial work most of the time, as a bonus it could be part of the training for maritime college/NS personnel. If there's a deployment needed, it goes back to work for the DF.

                            If however the DF envisions a NS role in more dangerous environments...
                            I'm not disagreeing with you but at the same time I would suggest that the NS is extremely unlikely to be conducting a San Carlos type opposed landing at any time (no political will, no public will, no reason). Any DF deployment is into a relatively permissive environment and always with the consent of that country's government. The most likely threat is asymmetric (terrorist/rebel with RPG, ATGW, etc). Of course I absolutely agree it may not be the only threat.

                            If going for a CIWS, something like Phalanx is the obvious chose, widely used, more of less self contained (can be bolted on once there is somewhere suitable and power and water are available. However, the asymmetric threats (eg RPGs and ATGW (depending on range they are fired from) may not be able to be engaged in time to prevent a hit (as the radar and gun won't have sufficient detection and reaction time). In this case your better off engaging the firer. Also bear in mind, the NS got its hand slapped as the 76mm's (think they were about €2m each) weren't budgeted for - a Phalanx is around €3.5m each (your going to need at least 2 for the vessel).

                            You could do a PPP or buy a vessel and paint it grey but.... the whole point it is multi-role and will be out in the Atlantic doing fishery protection in some of the worse seas in the world (that could be another reason for the bigger vessel).

                            It is multi-role & flexible.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                              So the Damen's would be too large and some of them to big for Dublin (and I can imagine the extra costs for the NS having to use it). Is that what was driving the sub 20m width spec?
                              Possibly, I don't know I didn't write the RFP

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                              • DeV, I'm not envisaging San Carlos either - it's a fact that non-state actors have been getting their hands on increasingly sophisticated and capable weapons e.g. the C-802.
                                That's leaving aside the myriad of other potential attack vectors.

                                CIWS is not a catch-all nor a cheap solution - as I stated, there are other aids like air search radar, tactical data link & passive countermeasures, like chaff/IR/smoke, which would just about offer baseline situational awareness and protection for a vessel which aside from being the largest in the fleet, would as you envisage it, carry equipment and personnel the DF could never begin to replace.

                                Multi-role sounds wonderful, but there's something a bit off about a vessel capable of carrying a full Mech Inf Coy spending 95% of its operational life patrolling the North Atlantic. But if perchance it's ever to carry that Mech Inf Coy somewhere hot and sunny, it will do so protected by a weapons & sensor fit designed for policing Irish waters.

                                I don't see how such a creature could be regarded value for money.

                                By way of contrast - the Danes have the Absalon Class, capable of lifting a Coy and it's equipped with a defensive suite from another planet, relative to anything in the NS.

                                But they also do this:


                                One is a true multi role military vessel, the other is a RoRo ferry.
                                Last edited by pym; 13 January 2016, 23:34.

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