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  • Originally posted by Jack Booted Man View Post
    I suppose Dev you are heading into a classic mission creep issue there, UNDOF is to monitor a ceasefire and police a de militarised zone between Syria and Israel. I reckon that adding the rebel factor ( there are over 1,000 such groups ) would be a step too far and further complicate a terminally ill mission.

    As for the militants motives, they were global news for a couple of days to highlight their existence and aims. they also could probably do with less UN types around, make their ops a lot simpler if they only had one team operating in their AO .... This kidnapping is pushing UNDOF closer to the edge which is ultimately of benefit to the rebels....
    I'm suggesting that the Government possibly want that

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jack Booted Man View Post
      I suppose Dev you are heading into a classic mission creep issue there, UNDOF is to monitor a ceasefire and police a de militarised zone between Syria and Israel. I reckon that adding the rebel factor ( there are over 1,000 such groups ) would be a step too far and further complicate a terminally ill mission.

      As for the militants motives, they were global news for a couple of days to highlight their existence and aims. they also could probably do with less UN types around, make their ops a lot simpler if they only had one team operating in their AO .... This kidnapping is pushing UNDOF closer to the edge which is ultimately of benefit to the rebels....
      Nail on head. The government seems to be asking the right questions, and making the right statements for once. It was heartening to see a Defence Forces matter take headline news yesterday on Six one and the 9 o clock.
      UNDOF is not UNIFIL. The UNDOF mandate is very limited in allowing UNDOF troops to engage with those who see fit to attack them.
      The United Nations Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) was established by Security Council resolution 350 (1974) PDF Document of 31 May 1974 to:
      Maintain the ceasefire between Israel and Syria;
      Supervise the disengagement of Israeli and Syrian forces; and
      Supervise the areas of separation and limitation, as provided in the May 1974 Agreement on Disengagement.
      By Israel and Syria, the mandate means just that. The armed forces of those states, not some knob jockey from Essex with his Pakistani cousins each with an AK 47 and a Shemagh bought locally, intent on forcing their misguided brand of islamo fascism on the world. If UNDOF engages these individuals it goes outside the mandate, and the minions at UNHQ will not support them when the tables turn. (See UNPROFOR in Srebrenica as a past example).
      So the government is saying to the UN- will you let our troops protect themselves against all aggressors in the UNDOF AO, and will you provide them with the necessary tools to do so. Keep in mind that the Irish contingent out there is the heaviest armed force in UNDOF. So without going into OPSEC country, we all know what is NOT available to UN troops coming under attack there.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • due to UNDOF restrictions - no heavy weaponry or decent AT
        "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
        "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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        • www.twitter.com/mickthehack

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          • If the opposition have mortars/RPGs/Dshkas, then the Irish need to tool up to at least equivalent level. Ignore the Israelis, who are the real opponents of the UN having any kind of heavy weapon and bring it in in the diplomatic bag if you have to.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
              If the opposition have mortars/RPGs/Dshkas, then the Irish need to tool up to at least equivalent level. Ignore the Israelis, who are the real opponents of the UN having any kind of heavy weapon and bring it in in the diplomatic bag if you have to.
              i've no idea if the Israeli thing is true, but supposing it is its the Israeli's who effectively allow UNDOF to function - casualties etc.. go out via Israel, and Israel has in the last week provided UNDOF with both ISTAR and direct fire support. offending them might be somewhat self-defeating...

              either UNDOF has its mandate widened, is significantly up-gunned and continues to have the support of Israel and Syria or its finished.

              Comment


              • They could do with cage armour at the very least...
                I knew a simple soldier boy.....
                Who grinned at life in empty joy,
                Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
                And whistled early with the lark.

                In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
                With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
                He put a bullet through his brain.
                And no one spoke of him again.

                You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
                Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
                Sneak home and pray you'll never know
                The hell where youth and laughter go.

                Comment


                • Thanks for uploading the video Mick - it's a wake up call that the public needs.

                  Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                  either UNDOF has its mandate widened, is significantly up-gunned and continues to have the support of Israel and Syria or its finished.
                  Agree that it's finished without Israeli & Assad support - the question is, what does widening the mandate mean, given that the threat to the UN is from the rebel factions - who are a common enemy to both Israel & Assad.

                  What's achieved by being there?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Buck View Post
                    They could do with cage armour at the very least...
                    certainly, but the best defence is not to have someone shoot at you in the first place - and the best way to achieve that is if the guy thinking about doing the shooting knows he'll disappear in a greasy pink cloud within seconds of pulling the trigger.

                    up-armouring the force will do nothing for dismounted patrols or blokes in camps being mortared - constantly manned artillery with counter-battery radars and robust ROE's however will.

                    not having the wagons painted bright white would probably help as well...

                    http://http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/...250ml-12067547

                    B&Q do deliveries.
                    Last edited by ropebag; 3 September 2014, 13:04.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                      certainly, but the best defence is not to have someone shoot at you in the first place - and the best way to achieve that is if the guy thinking about doing the shooting knows he'll disappear in a greasy pink cloud within seconds of pulling the trigger.

                      up-armouring the force will do nothing for dismounted patrols or blokes in camps being mortared - constantly manned artillery with counter-battery radars and robust ROE's however will.

                      not having the wagons painted bright white would probably help as well...

                      http://http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/...250ml-12067547

                      B&Q do deliveries.
                      To be honest, (in my opinion) I think they haven't gone for the cage armour because it could be seen as "too warry". Likewise with the camo paint. The paint isn't a massive issue - I think it's not the worst idea that they're very easily identifiable as UN vehicles - at the very least (and this is an extreme long shot), it may make the Israelis and Syrian Army think twice about firing. If either of those lads see camo armoured vehicles tooling around on hilltops near by, they might easily mistake them for rebels, they wouldn't have that excuse when they're UN white (not that that's stopped Israel before).

                      And as for the fella shooting at you - I think that's a dead argument. We're talking about bucks that think that strapping a suicide vest to a ten year old and sending them to the nearest market is just gravy. Likewise, these are chaps that think that blowing themselves up or taking 12.7mm therapy is the best way to die. If they can fire off an RPG at a Mowag and die in the process, they're over the moon, our lads aren't.
                      I knew a simple soldier boy.....
                      Who grinned at life in empty joy,
                      Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
                      And whistled early with the lark.

                      In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
                      With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
                      He put a bullet through his brain.
                      And no one spoke of him again.

                      You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
                      Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
                      Sneak home and pray you'll never know
                      The hell where youth and laughter go.

                      Comment


                      • I agree with a stronger ROE and counter batteries though.
                        I knew a simple soldier boy.....
                        Who grinned at life in empty joy,
                        Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
                        And whistled early with the lark.

                        In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
                        With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
                        He put a bullet through his brain.
                        And no one spoke of him again.

                        You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
                        Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
                        Sneak home and pray you'll never know
                        The hell where youth and laughter go.

                        Comment


                        • You couldn't make this up - this fella is in charge of Irish soldiers out there:



                          http://www.timesofisrael.com/filipino-force-defied-un-commander-in-golan-crisis/
                          Last edited by Mick O'Toole; 3 September 2014, 14:37.
                          www.twitter.com/mickthehack

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mick O'Toole View Post
                            You couldn't make this up - this fella is in charge of Irish soldiers out there:



                            http://www.timesofisrael.com/filipino-force-defied-un-commander-in-golan-crisis/
                            the UN gets two types of senior officer on secondment - the type the donor country wants to show off, and the type the donor country wants to keep away from anything important.

                            i wonder which bracket our freind falls into...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mick O'Toole View Post
                              You couldn't make this up - this fella is in charge of Irish soldiers out there:



                              http://www.timesofisrael.com/filipino-force-defied-un-commander-in-golan-crisis/
                              It would be interesting to know who ordered the FMR out to rescue the first batch of Filipino troops, I believe the COS there is a Filipino Colonel, while the Mission Commander is Maj Gen Singh Singha.

                              Comment


                              • The Israelis have vetoed heavy weapons before, on the basis that they might be used against them and their pals. Fortunately, some of the UNIFIL contingents ignored that and brought in the likes of TOW missiles and decent mortars...also, I'm not overly gone on bigging up the Mowags, which are essentially lightly-armed large white boxes and it might be no harm to add slat armour to them. Personally, I'd be a little more reassured if there was a 30mm Mowag there.

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