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Future Common Helicopter Fleet AC/CG/NS/Ambulance/Garda

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  • #31
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Back in the 2001 White paper, there was a plan to have 3 types of Heli in the Defence Forces.
    LUH (Light Utility Helicopter) for Pilot training, liason, and other tasks as required. Replacing the job then being done by Gazelle. Also being able to train pilots for GASU, who then used the Twin Squirrel.
    UH (Utility Helicopter) for troop transport, VIP transport, air ambulance etc. Replacing the job once done by Alouette III and Dauphin
    MLH (Medium Lift Helicopter) for troop transport and SAR, back when we did that. Replacing the job once done by the Puma we had for a wet weekend, and the S61 we had for a similarly short moment in time.
    See post 53

    Thing is, the Armee de l'Air, Marine Nationale and ALAT will take an originally unsuitable aircraft, and get the manufacturers to tweak it to fit their purpose properly, because of the volume of aircraft they will procure. We do not have that luxury.
    which is why we need to buy suitable aircraft off the shelf .... unfortunately we order civvy aircraft to our own specs and the result is .... issues and costs

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    • #32
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      See post 53

      which is why we need to buy suitable aircraft off the shelf .... unfortunately we order civvy aircraft to our own specs and the result is .... issues and costs
      There is no post 53
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        There is no post 53

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        • #34
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          If we were to look the NH90 we’d need our heads examining

          Major issues in Australia, Finland, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand and Sweden.

          Part of that is possibly a lot of localisation (eg different specs, local manufacturing etc)
          The RNZAF NH90's are fine, though I accept others have had problems when they have tried to bespoke them for their own needs rather than take one off the main production line. Cleared by an Auditor General Report. The only issue was the big leap of a learning curve and time to IOC from a 60's Huey to a modern fairly large helo, though it did take time for the OEM support to ramp up from the manufacturers end - something the US are very much better organised at doing. Only real problem now was that 10 were requested by Defence to meet tasking tempo's and they got 8 off a miserly GOTD and the auto-folding rotors were not acquired to save money which has limited some deployment. The Maritime TTH variant should do well as there is a need for a 10-15 tonne helo for amphibious support. The biggest issue is that they are expensive.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Anzac View Post
            The RNZAF NH90's are fine, though I accept others have had problems when they have tried to bespoke them for their own needs rather than take one off the main production line. Cleared by an Auditor General Report. The only issue was the big leap of a learning curve and time to IOC from a 60's Huey to a modern fairly large helo, though it did take time for the OEM support to ramp up from the manufacturers end - something the US are very much better organised at doing. Only real problem now was that 10 were requested by Defence to meet tasking tempo's and they got 8 off a miserly GOTD and the auto-folding rotors were not acquired to save money which has limited some deployment. The Maritime TTH variant should do well as there is a need for a 10-15 tonne helo for amphibious support. The biggest issue is that they are expensive.
            That’s good in that case (I was basing that on the need for retrofitting helicopters after delivery in order to meet the delivery specs and their grounding in 2017)

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DeV View Post
              That’s good in that case (I was basing that on the need for retrofitting helicopters after delivery in order to meet the delivery specs and their grounding in 2017)
              The truth Dev is that the fleet were never grounded following the engine cutout incident at Marlborough. The "grounding" was a media invention to sensationalise the incident. The NH90's were briefly given a temporary stand down until an inspection was made as as per incident procedure and warranty, then soon cleared for limited flight ops that excluded higher load weights and over water flights as a precautionary measure until fully cleared by the ACC. Aircraft fixed at landing site via an engine swap in the field and flown home.

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              • #37
                Getting back to a the idea of a Future Common Helicopter Fleet for the AC/CG/NS/Ambulance/Garda in my view the roles and capabilities required are so widely different it would make this difficult. For example the tactical manoeuver of a platoon sized infantry requires at least a rotary capability with 9-10 fully laden troops (plus aircrew) which predicates a medium utility helicopter (thus 3 MUH to manoever the platoon in a single wave), noting that it will have to have both armoured and electronic self-protection amongst other things to be able to live in a UNSC Chp VII environment. These are not plug and play things but are expensive upgrades that have to be built into the airframe.

                On the other hand this would be over-kill for the Air Policing role and the Medevac role, noting both the huge cost disparity of a milspec platform to a civilian workhorse in both acquisition terms and cost per flying hour. Flight training again is another issue as a medium utility helicopter has up to 5 times the cpfh of a LUH.

                There are such a wide range of requirements to solve that if a rationalised solution for Irish state supported rotary operations was sought for all players possibly at best two platforms, a LUH and MUH, could manage this, but there will still be compromises.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                  Getting back to a the idea of a Future Common Helicopter Fleet for the AC/CG/NS/Ambulance/Garda in my view the roles and capabilities required are so widely different it would make this difficult. For example the tactical manoeuver of a platoon sized infantry requires at least a rotary capability with 9-10 fully laden troops (plus aircrew) which predicates a medium utility helicopter (thus 3 MUH to manoever the platoon in a single wave), noting that it will have to have both armoured and electronic self-protection amongst other things to be able to live in a UNSC Chp VII environment. These are not plug and play things but are expensive upgrades that have to be built into the airframe.

                  On the other hand this would be over-kill for the Air Policing role and the Medevac role, noting both the huge cost disparity of a milspec platform to a civilian workhorse in both acquisition terms and cost per flying hour. Flight training again is another issue as a medium utility helicopter has up to 5 times the cpfh of a LUH.

                  There are such a wide range of requirements to solve that if a rationalised solution for Irish state supported rotary operations was sought for all players possibly at best two platforms, a LUH and MUH, could manage this, but there will still be compromises.
                  This is then the NH90/A109 pairing, a classical Hi/Lo mixed fleet.
                  One size rarely fits all.

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