Court Martial & punishment in the DF

[apod]

Limerick yes.Clonmel no.No Connect live displays for them either.I wonder why???

[Goldie fish]

Limerick yes.Clonmel no.No Connect live displays for them either.I wonder why???

tick tock perhaps.

[Truck Driver]

SBde AR PNCO course students have had to do it for all their training weekends in Barracks.

Then the BTC need to get their fingers out and organise work parties. Students on a course should not be employed in kitchens etc. They are there to partake in a course of instruction only.

As Kermit says, they are on a course of training, should not be so employed unless
they are on Unit Interior Economy, for example...

I hope you're not referring to me - I was a recruit at the time and had a lovely afternoon on Ben Head listening in on a 77 set and watching the world go by

Don't read into it, Concussion, what I said is what I actually meant...

Defence Act 1954, Sec 120.

Ta Smithy, saw that above, thanks...

It shouldn't take a Sgt to sort it out, I've seen a Lt wearing his dinner down his back as a direct result of giving out to one of the Ptes who had been detailed to serve at the Officers Mess function. The Pte's answer to his CS when being questioned, "well I'm only trained as a soldier, not a waiter, and if the Lt wants wave his arms around and play the big shot in front of his date, accidents will happen", noting more was said, and needless to say he doesn't get caught for functions anymore

Like tha man's style....

Waiters in any environment have the option of polishing the cutlery with their bell end or adding some saliva sauce to the meal. The most sophisticated waiters revenge I've ever heard off in the DF was one of the waiters in Collins Cork and a certain barrack commander. Said officer had serious delusions of grandeur and as barrack commander insisted on 'quails eggs' for TGIF in the mess - hence why the messing rate for officers in Cork was the highest in the country!

Although all mess members had to share the cost of the quails eggs he wasn't keen on sharing them and would strategically position himself at the door to the bar when the food was on the way so he could intercept the platter and scoff them all himself.

Anyway, the mess staff thought this was unfair too. The took one of the platters that the eggs were being served on and baked it in the oven at top temperature. The waiter came in the door with half a dozen wet tea towels between his hand and the platter. As predicted the barrack commander grabbed the platter, screamed in pain in front of all and sundry and proceeded to shower the bar with quails eggs including the GOC. Said officer wasn't the only one who had to go to the RAP. Apparently some of the officers nearly ruptured their intestines laughing.

Allegedly, (although you'd believe it from a Corkie) the waiter is supposed to have kept a straight face and said "Careful Sir, that platter is a little hot" as the barrack commander was grimacing in pain.

Classic !!!

Need to move the likes of these to a "DF Tales" thread of some sort, to preserve for future
readers...

Limerick yes.Clonmel no.No Connect live displays for them either.I wonder why???

tick tock perhaps.

MMMMMM ! Either the remaining S Bde manned posts are gonna get a lot more cramped, or
the rumours of 9 PDF Inf Bns becoming 6 might be more than a rumour... :-0

[WES]

Idle gossip about barrack closures, reservists complaining about having to clean up after themselves, people griping about being detailed for things that are "not my job".

All very interesting I'm sure.

Now, about that court martial. Who thinks that the Comdt will be reinstated (if that's the correct terminology in this case). Personally I think he'll win on appeal because let's face it, in the big scheme of things, military justice and discipline not withstanding, there are far greater issues that our little country has to deal with at present. I don't think that a bench of judges are going to be too bothered with this case. It is trivial and if the Lt Col in question could not deal with someone calling him a prick then I suggest he has reached his level of incompetence and I sincerely hope the judges will treat the appeal accordingly.

Now for all you people complaining about being detailed for waiting. The collective noun for waiters is an Absence of Waiters. If you don't like waiting, there's an option.

[Jessup]

There would the same cohort of judges dealing with the weighty topic surrounding the height of the hedges next door to Van Morrisson's house in Dalkey. Admittedly, this case doesn't reach the dizzy heights of the JAG tv show but maintenance of good order and discipline in the Defence Forces is a lot more worthwhile than many cases reviewed by judges?

[WES]

Yes, Jessup. I agree but my point is how did it get this far? He didn't strike him or point a weapon at him, he verbally abused him. Deal with it in-house and don't hang our dirty laundry out in public.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all,
For my 2d worth, I think he'll be "invited" to go with no loss of pension or status, a big cheque to ease his pain and a promise not to write about it until the participants are dead.I think the guy is clearly unhappy at being in the DF at all, since he appears to be a serial redresser/vexatious litigant/annoyer of senior staff,etc. I think that once he's outside, the prospect of frittering away his pension/wages/stamp collection in short order in the High Court will cool his jets
regards
GttC

[Jessup]

Yes, Jessup. I agree but my point is how did it get this far? He didn't strike him or point a weapon at him, he verbally abuse him. Deal with it in-house and don't hang our dirty laundry out in public.

Another member here made a very good point that there is no 'low intensity' way of dealing with an issue like this in the current A7 structure. My experience of 'in-house' discipline in the DF is not a good one, so in the absence of a proper alternative perhaps this was the only option?

Is there a point about tolerating 'small things' that goes on to foster a culture where this type of procedure is only acceptable if a Comdt does assault or point a weapon at a superior? Zero tolerance? I'm thinking of discipline in secondary schools as an analogy. The wheels starting falling off there when students couldn't be disciplined for small things........like maybe calling your teacher a prick?

[DeV]

Yes, Jessup. I agree but my point is how did it get this far? He didn't strike him or point a weapon at him, he verbally abuse him. Deal with it in-house and don't hang our dirty laundry out in public.

Another member here made a very good point that there is no 'low intensity' way of dealing with an issue like this in the current A7 structure. My experience of 'in-house' discipline in the DF is not a good one, so in the absence of a proper alternative perhaps this was the only option?

Is there a point about tolerating 'small things' that goes on to foster a culture where this type of procedure is only acceptable if a Comdt does assault or point a weapon at a superior? Zero tolerance? I'm thinking of discipline in secondary schools as an analogy. The wheels starting falling off there when students couldn't be disciplined for small things........like maybe calling your teacher a prick?

It has been dealt with inhouse! A court marshal is a internal DF procedure.

There is very little "in-house discipline" (I presume this means no formal charge) in the DF since A7.

In a similar context (ie office interview) would a section, platoon or company commander not take similar action if a private did it?

[WES]

It has been dealt with inhouse! A court marshal is a internal DF procedure

Sure it has. That's why it's in all the papers. The civvies are having a field day.

There is very little "in-house discipline" (I presume this means no formal charge) in the DF since A7

Is this what happens? Is this in your experience of the workings of the PDF or is this something than you think happens?

In a similar context (ie office interview) would a section, platoon or company commander not take similar action if a private did it?

In my experience? Not always, and for a number of reasons. Not everything goes according to the manual or the DFR as a lot of people on this board seem to think.

[Truck Driver]

....so in the absence of a proper alternative perhaps this was the only option?

Reduction in Rank was another possible punishment as a result of being convicted under
Section 133, if I' m not mistaken

The subsequent loss of pay would hurt as much as the reduction in seniority, IMHO

Especially in the current economic climate

[WES]

A court marshal is a internal DF procedure.

Court Martial.

[hedgehog]

I feel embarrassed quoting myself-

In relation to the recent "Prick Gate" incident

I



Now you look at that from the point of view of a civy- they would no doubt see it

like Clifford (and me) as a criminal waste of money- in that 1 guy called his boss a prick

and was caught- and remember this took 18 months to get to trial.

The Defence Forces by allowing such a piddling trifle get aired in the public arena

must have been using the same PR advisors as the IDF.

From this weeks letters in this weeks Sunday Tribune

and I know its only the opinion of one man- but think of tip of the ice berg

and then think of all the great work every lad who ever donned the uniform has done

the great work in the PR battle undertaken by Pat O Connor- the Lads heading down the

Panama canal- the lads just back from Kosovo and Chad etc

Maintenance of 10,000 soldiers a waste of money
From John Cooney
A number of recent events have reflected very poorly on the Defence Forces, particularly on the army. The most recent was the ludicrous 'little prick' case, where a spat between two senior and apparently mature officers resulted in a court martial and the dismissal of the more 'junior' officer. This despite the fact that he was highly experienced and had an excellent service record. Secondly we had the equally ludicrous situation where army personnel were not allowed to cut the grass in the Curragh on health and safety grounds!




Some time ago we had the resignation of 'Major General' Willie O'Dea for shooting himself in both feet with both barrels, metaphorically speaking, of course. Currently there are rumblings about army officers buying illegal arms. We all remember the army deafness claims; the poor old taxpayer is probably still paying for that fiasco.




Surely in these constrained economic times, and in the light of the above which are probably only the tip of the iceberg, it is both necessary and appropriate to review and debate the raison d'être of the Defence Forces in general and particularly the army.




In a nutshell, do we need an army of in excess of 10,000 personnel with one officer for every 10 soldiers?




Do we need a separate Department of Defence, an expensive minister and a rake of public servants?




Do we need a massive defence budget to buy expensive armaments, which we will probably never really need?




What is the point in having over 10,000 highly-trained and intelligent personnel almost permanently confined to barracks?




In over 60 years, I don't recall a single occasion when we had to call on the army to defend ourselves from foreign invasion or to intervene in any internal issues of note, apart from an odd bus strike.




I would suggest that a serious review should take place immediately with a view to reducing the army to 1,000 crack troops that can be quickly mobilised if and when necessary. This reduction could be done through natural wastage and voluntary redundancy over a five- to 10-year period.




In light of the increasing drugs problem, I would also suggest that those highly trained officers and personnel who decide to leave could be quickly retrained and subsumed into An Garda Síochána in some form. Their role could be to focus on and swamp the illegal drugs trade making it impossible for dealers to operate. Resources should be also redirected to the navy and air corps, again specifically to stop the continual ingress of drugs through our coastline.




John Cooney,

[Captain Edmund Blackadder]

In over 60 years, I don't recall a single occasion when we had to call on the army to defend ourselves from foreign invasion or to intervene in any internal issues of note, apart from an odd bus strike.

Is he actually serious?

[Jessup]

"Prick Gate" will have bugger all influence on the next White Paper and neither will the editorial policy of the Sunday Tribune which publishes a letter like this and not others that don't suit their agenda. Remember, that great Irish icon Gay Byrne ran a telephone poll on his radio show during the height of the hearing claims about getting rid of the DF altogether.

Similarly, the very positive piece on the DF in Chad in Baz's Extreme Worlds will not be the saviour of the DF either. It's just part of the ebb and flow in the constant PR battle in every Government Department.

For sure, you have to consider PR but you can't allow it to dictate good order and discipline. EG If this investigation about DF Officers purchasing arms in South Africa for groups in the Seychelles (as fanciful as it sounds) is true then should the officers get a free pass to avoid the bad PR and letters from the Joe Duffy appreciation society to the editor? It would cause far more PR damage than "Prick Gate" so what does the DF do then?