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Cessna Replacement - The Options

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  • Originally posted by pym View Post


    The idea of a fleet of four long range aircraft of the Swordfish class that are able to work against sub threats and to drop something more devastating than a dinghy.... sign me up.

    But I'll repeat myself again - that kind of quantum leap in capability is, in my opinion, only likely to come if the EU waves a big bloody pointy stick at us.

    "Oh you want your low corporate tax rate? Oh and what are you contributing to EU Defence? Oh.. well, something will have to give... to begin with, I notice you have a lot of ocean..."
    PESCO (Permanent Structured Cooperation) is going to happen and the pressure will come on from the other European Capitals to spread the load of the required strategic weight that the PESCO negotiations are after. Ireland will have to be seen to be doing something even though it may wish to hold on to the "shop front" of neutrality and not offer a formal commitment through PESCO into participation.

    At least with Swordfish Ireland could point their big stick to a maritime capability set that would be the most capable in the Post Brexit EU and say in return to pressure from other capitals - what do you mean we are not doing enough - we are guarding your left flank here contributing to freedom of navigation across the Atlantic to North America, patrolling this now larger EEZ and SAR zone?

    It maybe indeed be a cost neutral option to maintain neutrality because Juncker and Tusk will find a way a way to make you pay for it. Imagine a compulsory defence surcharge on all (Post Brexit) EU27 members based on the size and wealth of ones domestic economy. If Ireland makes up 2% of the EU Economy and they want 5.5B Euros p.a to fund PESCO each year then you'd be up for 110 million a year on a pro-rata basis. You'd might as well spend the money on ones own Defence Force rather than funding something you'd have no control over.

    From a non irish citizens perspective, Ireland as a wealthy western liberal democracy that relies on interdependence in diplomacy, trade and security between other nations and EU partners, does have a responsibility towards the collective common good of those interests even if you are not entering into a formal defence relationship.
    Last edited by Anzac; 18 September 2017, 11:57.

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    • Originally posted by pym View Post
      And running costs are a fine reason if the plan is to leave them at home.
      Or to put it another way it is easier and cheaper to deploy

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      • Originally posted by Anzac View Post

        From a non irish citizens perspective, Ireland as a wealthy western liberal democracy that relies on interdependence in diplomacy, trade and security between other nations and EU partners, does have a responsibility towards the collective common good of those interests even if you are not entering into a formal defence relationship.
        Indeed! If only the Irish public got that.

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        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
          Or to put it another way it is easier and cheaper to deploy
          Oh Dev...

          No operational commander is going to accept the PC-12 and the logistics train that goes with it because it's a) not far off useless, and b) so vulnerable (single engine, no DAS) that it gives him nothing but a headache.

          So, you are correct in one way - they are cheaper to deploy because no one will have them, so they won't deploy...

          The Irish government, not - apparently - being fools, know this and deliberately picked the PC-12 to rid them of any danger of having to do anything expensive or controversial with it.

          Turf cutting and 'fact finding' missions to Switzerland...

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          • The real reason why we need properly equipped naval service and an air corps which has access to multiple high performance maritime patrol platforms.
            http://www.askaboutireland.ie/readin...an-environmen/
            "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
            "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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            • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              Turf cutting and 'fact finding' missions to Switzerland...
              I must protest your flagrant leaking of the updated white paper.

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              • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                Oh Dev...

                No operational commander is going to accept the PC-12 and the logistics train that goes with it because it's a) not far off useless, and b) so vulnerable (single engine, no DAS) that it gives him nothing but a headache.
                you missed my point, a single engine means it that it has less of a logistical tail compared to twin engine (less labour and spares intensive) and it means that potentially any AC pilot can fly it (once type rated), i.e. They don't have to have a multi engine rating first. Say we had said multi-engine - it would have ended up with the a/c being used as a multi-engine trainer being smaller than the CASA and Learjet.

                I don't think you realise just how hard up the DF is for cash, being less labour intensive (when both pilots and tech are in short supply and looking at overseas), being less fuel intensive (when cash is in short supply and looking at overseas), being cheaper to buy (when cash is in short supply), being less spares intensive (when cash is in short supply and when looking at overseas), these are al positives.

                A PC12 Spectre will be a generational leap in capability from the Cessnas.

                Who says it won't have DAS? It is allowed for in the tender!
                Last edited by DeV; 18 September 2017, 12:23.

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                • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                  Who says it won't have DAS? It is allowed for in the tender!
                  but not in the budget. the same could be said for the ISTAR gear... you aren't buying an ISTAR/support aircraft, you're buying a single engined airframe and a pair of binoculars.

                  its not cheaper to deploy them overseas than a multi-engine - either in support of other DF assets or as a contribution on their own - because they are utterly unsuitable, and bog-all use, for any kind of overseas deployment and the force generation componant will just chin the 'offer' of them off.

                  yet again the IG - with the willing conivence of the AC - concentrate resouces on 'on-island' tasks and assets that are commercially compatable and run like hell from anything that might be useful to anyone outside the Linkdin bubble...

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                  • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                    but not in the budget. the same could be said for the ISTAR gear... you aren't buying an ISTAR/support aircraft, you're buying a single engined airframe and a pair of binoculars.

                    its not cheaper to deploy them overseas than a multi-engine - either in support of other DF assets or as a contribution on their own - because they are utterly unsuitable, and bog-all use, for any kind of overseas deployment and the force generation componant will just chin the 'offer' of them off.

                    yet again the IG - with the willing conivence of the AC - concentrate resouces on 'on-island' tasks and assets that are commercially compatable and run like hell from anything that might be useful to anyone outside the Linkdin bubble...
                    Remains to be seen if the budget is there and the cost of a DAS suite offered and its capabilities, not forgetting that this will be a pressured a/c. But bear in mind the kind of AOs that the DF generally operate in.

                    Go and read the tender documents!!!! at the very least must have it will have a gyro stabilised EO/IR turret with automatic video tracking with colour low light CCTV, colour HD Camera, thermal imager and laser range finder. A generation jump from a current Cessna with binos.

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                    • DeV, simple enough question - do you see the PC-12 being deployed to provide ISR support in say an environment like Chad?

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                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        ... A generation jump from a current Cessna with binos.
                        with the greatest respect Dev, that you think this generational (two?) jump from Cessna to this PC-12 abortion makes it an effective, valued ISTAR asset in modern assymetrical conflict just highlights quite how far the DF is behind the rest of the world.

                        sorry, but this is a Robinson R44 while everyone else is flying F/A-18E's and F-35's...

                        single engined aircaft with no DAS prowling 20 miles off the Libyan coast? single engined aircraft with no DAS pootling over the UNFIL OAR? Mali? Chad?

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                        • My understanding is that the Cessna replacement is primarily for homeland security taskings and not for overseas deployment in support of UNSC Chp VI or VII missions.

                          Has the general thrust of the replacement policy changed since this article and the RFI ....

                          In a piece posted on 2nd February, we noted that the Department of Justice and Equality had secured an additional €1.8 million in capital funding, for the replacement and upgrade of equipment on the Defender aircraft, which entered service in 1997. We also noted the comments of the Minister for Just


                          In a homeland security environment the PC-12 is a perfectly acceptable solution.

                          If it is a discussion about a real world ISTAR solution in a contested UNSC Chp VII context then it is probably best to add more zero's when talking about the kind of cash involved and the required platform.

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                          • Do we actually need the PC-9s? I don't see them doing anything useful really. Basic flight training can be done in something smaller (Diamond 20?). Then graduate to twins on DA-42 MPP, which also fills the light ISTAR slot. And then a few Swordfish on the Saab 2000 or the Q-400 platform. Add a PC-24 for VIPs and there's your fixed win fleet. Evetually add a few GlobalEyes

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                            • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                              My understanding is that the Cessna replacement is primarily for homeland security taskings and not for overseas deployment in support of UNSC Chp VI or VII missions.

                              Has the general thrust of the replacement policy changed since this article and the RFI ....

                              In a piece posted on 2nd February, we noted that the Department of Justice and Equality had secured an additional €1.8 million in capital funding, for the replacement and upgrade of equipment on the Defender aircraft, which entered service in 1997. We also noted the comments of the Minister for Just


                              In a homeland security environment the PC-12 is a perfectly acceptable solution.

                              If it is a discussion about a real world ISTAR solution in a contested UNSC Chp VII context then it is probably best to add more zero's when talking about the kind of cash involved and the required platform.
                              Swordfish on the Global 6000: 80M$ for the bird or 140M$ for the system

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                              • Look at where we are contributing, the amount of personnel, the mission and the ROE.

                                This is a generational jump for the AC, nowhere have I said that it is into current generation. It isn't a Shadow or similar.

                                The tender gives the options for it potentially to be used overseas, with additional sensors and DAS. I didn't say that it would going in on an initial air strike with F117s and cruise missiles (guess what neither will the rest of the DF)!

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