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  • #16
    For those of you with IKON access the Armour board report is on there with all the options for the Mowag fleet outlined and costed.That report has been submitted to the general staff for consideration.
    Letting the Mowags rot was NOT one of the options as funnily enough they are the cornerstone of our FP measures overseas.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
      Is WP15 your new bible?
      given how it more or less governs Defence policy..... Yes

      If you had IKON you'd be able to see how it feeds in everything at the strategic and operational level (which also filters into the tactical level).

      Eg the monthly battle rhythm draws a lot from it.

      At the end of the Term of the recent White Paper, some of the Mowags will be older than the soldiers being carried within. The vehicles will also have spent a lot of time working in a high tempo overseas deployment.
      Did you read the last sentence of your first quote?

      Originally posted by apod View Post
      Letting the Mowags rot was NOT one of the options as funnily enough they are the cornerstone of our FP measures overseas.
      I assume you mean as is without any LEP?

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      • #18
        some of the Mowags will be older than the troops carried within? So what? The DF has always fielded equipment on the basis that it will stay in service for at least thirty years; 1944 25-pdrs? 1963 Alouettes? The Fougas were already old when we got them. The Cessnas are 40 years old. The Mowags are capital equipment and will be kept on until you can see thru the hulls.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
          some of the Mowags will be older than the troops carried within? So what?
          Given the places that the Mowags are sent, and the abuse they get I think it is important. The purpose is to protect the young men and women who travel inside them. If, or when they are no longer able to do this job they should be replaced.

          The Terrex looks like a nice car...similar dimensions, but a lot heavier (extra armor perhaps?), and allows for up to 12 troops. Also, it's a modular design, which would give an element of future proofing and allow for future customization and upgrades.
          Last edited by ODIN; 16 June 2016, 02:24.
          What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
            some of the Mowags will be older than the troops carried within? So what? The DF has always fielded equipment on the basis that it will stay in service for at least thirty years; 1944 25-pdrs? 1963 Alouettes? The Fougas were already old when we got them. The Cessnas are 40 years old. The Mowags are capital equipment and will be kept on until you can see thru the hulls.
            Having obsolete junk should never be acceptable policy, even if it was done in the past.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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            • #21
              "See through the hulls"LOL
              Read the report.Not likely.
              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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              • #22
                It has always been the case that equipment will be kept in service as long as possible and that is still the case. Mowags and LTAVs will be kept on, because the DF operates at the whim of the Dept of Finance. When you have kit that can be overhauled ad infinitum, such as aircraft, then they will be kept on. Plenty of airlines operate 25, 30 year old aircraft. Plenty of Militaries keep old stuff going because, like Bedford trucks, they cannot be killed, can easily be fixed and spares are plentiful. For example, I'd rather they got rid of the Scorpions or actually made the decision to do so and replaced them with a 90mm Mowag. In terms of obsolencence, the Df has to be as aware as everyone else is about the rate at which electronics go out of date.

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                • #23
                  Actually modern Airlines get rid of their planes when they are more than 10years old as the maintenance becomes too much. Check the average age of Ryanair's fleet. What was acceptable in the 1900's should not be the way we manage of AFV fleet.
                  Let order a load of Terrex IPV'S and a few with a nice 105mm pointy thing as replacement for the retired AML90's.

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                  • #24
                    Check the average age of Ryanair's fleet
                    Ryanair are actually the biggest trader of second hand 737s. They have block booked so man options on 737s into the future people come to Ryanair rather than Boeing to buy 737s.

                    Age is nothing in Aeroplanes, 'cycles' being the key, how landings they have performed. An operator like Ryanair would have a huge amount of cycles per aircraft and so don't hold onto them all that long to ensure they hold value.
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                      Ryanair are actually the biggest trader of second hand 737s. They have block booked so man options on 737s into the future people come to Ryanair rather than Boeing to buy 737s.

                      Age is nothing in Aeroplanes, 'cycles' being the key, how landings they have performed. An operator like Ryanair would have a huge amount of cycles per aircraft and so don't hold onto them all that long to ensure they hold value.
                      That once was the case alright. Been a bit of a change in thinking of late. The oldest 737-800 fleet is coming up on 14 years in service and hull turnover is low at the minute. Some newer birds have left the fleet over the years to add to the confusion.

                      https://m.planespotters.net/airline/Ryanair

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                      • #26
                        Exactly. Look at the likes of the M113 that the Danes have just decided to replace with more 300 MOWAG Piranhas at the end of last year (they've brought the Piranha V by the way) or the FV432's that are still clinging on to service in the uk as "Bulldog".

                        I'd love to serve in a DF that has a new fleet of Terrex or CM32 a likes built in Ireland (wallace, daly etc would have breakdown) but that won't be happening anytime soon if additional life can be found in the MOWAG fleet.

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                        • #27
                          If we do not want to go for a full APC but something a little lighter there is always the other great selling Timoney design the Thales Bushmaster IMV of Australia. Good for peacekeeing in auster hot places such as Chad or Mali.

                          https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/world...nce/bushmaster

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                            If we do not want to go for a full APC but something a little lighter there is always the other great selling Timoney design the Thales Bushmaster IMV of Australia. Good for peacekeeing in auster hot places such as Chad or Mali.

                            https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/world...nce/bushmaster
                            It is a full APC

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              If we do not want to go for a full APC but something a little lighter there is always the other great selling Timoney design the Thales Bushmaster IMV of Australia. Good for peacekeeing in auster hot places such as Chad or Mali.

                              https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/world...nce/bushmaster
                              The bushmaster weighs more than a mowag...it's a quasi MRAP....
                              Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by The real Jack View Post
                                The bushmaster weighs more than a mowag...it's a quasi MRAP....
                                Bushmaster 12400 kg Piranha 3 18000kg

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