Originally posted by sofa
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For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostIf you are going to dispose of ships built in 1995 ( Eithne built in 1984 ) and one of them is your Flag/Command ship, then it would be prudent to follow the US example and retain HMS Ocean at short notice of about three months. Having a Reserve in Military/Naval terms must surely mean being able to call on extra tonnage to do a Falklands or something similar. Decks are critical for moving assets when required. Closing major dockyard facilities is also another limiting factor to keeping ships operational
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Ocean had an out of service date of 2018 from long before the moment she first went down the slipway - and she has been worked far harder than was ever expected of her, and she's now pretty shagged out.
she was built as a cheap and cheerful deck, her build/fit cost was less than £250m for a 20,000 ton airfield-cum-floating dock.
just let that sink in, particularly in light of the €70m the NS pays for a 2,500 ton OPV...
Ocean has provided astonishing value for money, but one of the reasons she cost £250m rather than £750m was that she was only going to last 20 years rather than 30. she's not quite at the same state as HMS Intrepid reached in the 1980's, but that state is not far off should she continue in RN service. it is, very sadly for those of us who've worked from her, time to let her go. i'd prefer it if she had been replaced, but it is time to let her go.
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There were 3 assessments done on the HMAS Choules ex Larg Bay plus the RAN and the Defence Material Organisation and then peer reviewed. The Choules was only bought as an interim until the two LHD's came online (an envisaged 4-5 year period) and then to pass a requirements gateway review in 2016. There was conjecture over one engineering report that created question marks that came to light over the June 2012 Transmission failure - but the RAN and DMO realised that the vessel was going to require modifications alongside for RAN service anyway and at the el-cheapo price of GBP65m it made sense and still makes. It is likely to be in service into the late 2020's. It is a tad unfair to extrapolate the circumstances of the RAN's prior purchases of the ancient HMAS Manoora and Kanimbla in the mid 1990s with that of the fairly new Choules. They were old Vietnam era Newports bought for $20m each. One of the ideas behind buying them was the usual political local 'make work' schemes to keep the regional dockyards busy ahead of the 1996 elections. Sometimes the biggest enemies of navies are politicians and domestic ship building industries.
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Originally posted by ropebag View PostOcean had an out of service date of 2018 from long before the moment she first went down the slipway - and she has been worked far harder than was ever expected of her, and she's now pretty shagged out.
she was built as a cheap and cheerful deck, her build/fit cost was less than £250m for a 20,000 ton airfield-cum-floating dock.
just let that sink in, particularly in light of the €70m the NS pays for a 2,500 ton OPV...
Ocean has provided astonishing value for money, but one of the reasons she cost £250m rather than £750m was that she was only going to last 20 years rather than 30. she's not quite at the same state as HMS Intrepid reached in the 1980's, but that state is not far off should she continue in RN service. it is, very sadly for those of us who've worked from her, time to let her go. i'd prefer it if she had been replaced, but it is time to let her go.
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostYou may be right in part but the Strategic Defence review of 2015 also decided to terminate Ocean in 2018 without replacement. This has the attritional effect of reducing air assault platform, plus reducing response to next years disaster events in overseas territories. Building to commercial ( Llyods Standards ) often means the hull is stronger with thicker steel plating. Half life refit at 15 years would have extended the hull to at least 2025 or beyond. The rest is just replacing bum machinery and tech. items. The problem is the politicians have loss sight of Britian's traditional duties at Sea and are weighed down by rash zenophobic decisions and the fake news surrounding them.
Well there be troops to conduct the amphibious actions these vessels are intended for?
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Originally posted by Rocinante View PostIt's going to be a weird day when Italy has more Amphibious capability then the Brits..
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Originally posted by na grohmit� View PostYes there is. Abandon brexit, and hope Sterling recovers so the UK can again fund its day to day expenses.
ie The UK believes with its new carriers it will once again be a force to be reckoned with with these new ships showing the way for a new UK.
Which is all well and good but if the support structure is not in place will the whole thing come tumbling down.
Oh I'm sure we'll have which Minster explain why the RN platforms that they have are so much better that they don't need anything anymore than what they have.
Lets face it , had we the internet back in 1980/81/82 we'd have been having the same discussion and yet the RN still survives to this day!
I don't think the real situation will come to light until both new carriers are in service.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostReading about the nice new carriers in Warship FLIR and the arguement seems to be that the carriers haven't been scrapped up to this point as they symbolize the UKs 'go ahead alone policy' without the EU.
I don't think the real situation will come to light until both new carriers are in service.
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Originally posted by Sparky42 View PostThe RAF?
The problem is the political weakness in either refusing to fund that which they have bought or required, or to stand up to the old Tory media and allocate defence resources to the RAF and RN and away from the Army.
Bizarrely the Army has grasped it, but the old warhorses haven't and Cameron and May have run away from the confrontation.
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Originally posted by Sparky42 View PostThe RAF?
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If we look at the RN, then the rot really set-in during the 1960's, a decade that destroyed so much capability both in the RN and the RAF. In 1960, the RN had nearly 160 destroyers and frigates, today they have 1/10th of that. Key to the decline was the decision not to replace the CV carriers, later they did get 3 "through-deck cruisers" equipped with Harriers.
True if they worked the 6 Type 45 destroyers would be a leap over the 13 (+2 sunk) Type 42's but with only 6 it is hard to see how they could meet all the demands placed upon them. Sad as it is there needs to be a better matching of the demands against the available resources. Does the UK need an independent nuclear force? This is a major draw on monetary and human resources, if so then it needs to see what role it can play with the remainder of the resources available. Two carrier battle groups, an amphibious assault group and the associated logistics are just not in what they want to spend.
The UK is always held up as one of the NATO countries that meets the 2% budget target, but what is forgotten is that within that 2% are all the costs associated with the on-going combat operations even if there has been a draw down in Iraq and Afghanistan. Strip out war spending and we would see that the UK has for more than a decade not meet the 2%. Once you see this then it is easy to understand why RN and RAF have not been able to keep the capabilities they had just a few years ago.
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