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  • #16

    One question I would have is why PDFORRA and RACO have not kicked up over these numbers
    And risk calling attention to the massive cost associated with their members very generous sick leave allowances?

    A reduction is pay for long term sick leave, or other means of making is less favourable to be a drain on the organisation would sort a lot of the malingerers (non-reckonable service for pension, medals, promotion after X number of days) The genuine ones would be grateful of what assistance they get if it means they get better. More access to MOs for medical boards would sort a lot of it too.

    Do not get me wrong the overwhelming majority are genuine, very genuine! However, every single serving member of the PDF could list off a line of wasters that everyone knows goes sick when it suits them, at the drop of a hat, with no regard for those that have to pick up the slack when they do.

    Personally, I think you should lose MSA every day that you are medically ineffective.

    Comment


    • #17
      More access to MOs for medical boards would sort a lot of it too
      This is something the reserve could easily provide if asked to do so within a 12 month period.
      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by trellheim View Post
        This is something the reserve could easily provide if asked to do so within a 12 month period.
        There are 2 x PDF line officers that are registered with the GMC that DMB will not accept into the medical corps.

        There was a competition held this year for MOs and one of the line officers was one of the candidates. The board selected randomers rather than someone with 15 years experience

        Comment


        • #19
          Is the current system fit for purpose?
          Someone currently serving can correct me I hope, but does each member of the DF reporting sick still have to do so by attending to a medic in person?
          Is there still an organised daily "sick parade" at the MAP?
          I remember in the 80s and 90s there being large queues outside the door of the hospital in Collins Barracks on a monday morning. If this is the case is it an efficient system? If someone fails to attend for duties how long before they can report sick? What is the difference between Certified and Uncertified in this case?
          Is the system of charging people for being absent practical in the modern work environment? Is there a better means to correct this behaviour if repeated?

          The rest of the PS requires the person reporting sick to do so to their manager by phone before 10am (ruling out the duvet days or the alarm clock failure). Then you either have 2 days to get better and return to work or attend a doctor to get a medical cert. You get the medical cert ASAP after reporting sick and post it to your manager. Without a medical cert you return to work "self certified". Frequent uncertified sick absences will culminate in a meeting, followed by warnings, verbal and written. Continued absences (certified or uncertified) will result in a visit to the CMO, who will determine if you are fit to remain in the job or not.
          It is a good system that has for the most part clamped down on the malingerers. But you require a clear system without ambiguity.
          Most I know in the system now take a days leave for an uncertified sick day. Less complicated.
          My wife's private sector employer recently contracted out all absence management to an external company. They permit 3 uncertified sick days per year. No exceptions.
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

          Comment


          • #20
            My private sector employer offers no sick leave. I was told when i started 8 years ago that 'we dont do sick'. 20 days paid leave and thats it. 100 people employed and nobody really cribs.

            Comment


            • #21
              There is a rake of empty RDF MO appointments is my point.

              Certified Sick Leave can not be denied legally as far as I know ( Ireland ) but there are rules about how long including the types of procedures as meeting the company doctor as described above and claiming the social back . USL can beyond 2 or 3 a year but may be wrong on that.
              Last edited by trellheim; 31 December 2017, 15:18.
              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

              Comment


              • #22
                And risk calling attention to the massive cost associated with their members very generous sick leave allowances?
                Please don't be THAT guy.Enough PDFORRA bashers on Facebook.Usually people who are Malcontents ,don't know how representation works and believe everything the barrack room lawyer spouts.PDFORRA fought over many years to bring the enlisted into line with the Officers in terms of USL's etc so please don't unfairly attack those of which who have stuck their necks out for their comrades benefit.

                A reduction is pay for long term sick leave, or other means of making is less favourable to be a drain on the organisation would sort a lot of the malingerers (non-reckonable service for pension, medals, promotion after X number of days) The genuine ones would be grateful of what assistance they get if it means they get better. More access to MOs for medical boards would sort a lot of it too.
                That has already been signed up to as part of the Haddington road agreement which if you do your homework you will see was two pay agreements back.We are now on Lansdowne road agreement 2(LRA2).Sick leave brought into line with the wider public sector.3 Months full pay.3 Months half pay and then you go on the "rehabilitation rate".No more people staying out on long term full pay for years whilst awaiting a board.
                Do not get me wrong the overwhelming majority are genuine, very genuine! However, every single serving member of the PDF could list off a line of wasters that everyone knows goes sick when it suits them, at the drop of a hat, with no regard for those that have to pick up the slack when they do.
                100% agree.We all know the wasters.The problem we face now is that the good reliable people are so sick and tired of taking up the slack that they are not playing ball anymore. We need to win these people back not punish them as they are feeling used and abused despite being loyal and reliable for may years when other were not.These people are the backbone of the DF and the backbone is very very bent at the moment.

                Personally, I think you should lose MSA every day that you are medically ineffective.
                No.Go the opposite.INCREASE MSA or even just duty allowances.Make deploying as an exercise troop or Mobile security for and exercise financially rewarding. Carrot before stick.We are well past stick at this time.

                Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                Is the current system fit for purpose?
                Someone currently serving can correct me I hope, but does each member of the DF reporting sick still have to do so by attending to a medic in person?
                Is there still an organised daily "sick parade" at the MAP?
                I remember in the 80s and 90s there being large queues outside the door of the hospital in Collins Barracks on a monday morning. If this is the case is it an efficient system? If someone fails to attend for duties how long before they can report sick? What is the difference between Certified and Uncertified in this case?
                Is the system of charging people for being absent practical in the modern work environment? Is there a better means to correct this behaviour if repeated?

                The rest of the PS requires the person reporting sick to do so to their manager by phone before 10am (ruling out the duvet days or the alarm clock failure). Then you either have 2 days to get better and return to work or attend a doctor to get a medical cert. You get the medical cert ASAP after reporting sick and post it to your manager. Without a medical cert you return to work "self certified". Frequent uncertified sick absences will culminate in a meeting, followed by warnings, verbal and written. Continued absences (certified or uncertified) will result in a visit to the CMO, who will determine if you are fit to remain in the job or not.
                It is a good system that has for the most part clamped down on the malingerers. But you require a clear system without ambiguity.
                Most I know in the system now take a days leave for an uncertified sick day. Less complicated.
                My wife's private sector employer recently contracted out all absence management to an external company. They permit 3 uncertified sick days per year. No exceptions.
                The current DF system is fit for purpose but is open to abuse like everywhere else.What you have described above is almost exactly the systems that are still in place for the PDF.Points to note.

                1/ Sick at home(SAH).Only accepted if you live more than 6.2 Km from a Military Post with a doctor.72 Hours to submit a cert.Must say unfit to travel.Must see a Military doctor after 72 Hrs.C.O is Sick leave granting authority.Cert goes to M.O who decides if he agrees or disagrees with the findings.he reports to C.O.If M.O agrees the C.O MUST grant the sick leave.If M.O disagrees than the submitter is considered absent from the time they were supposed to present for work.

                2/ USL. Max of 7 in a 12 Months period. Cannot take more than 2 in a row.Must present to Military doctor after that. Take anymore than five and you are paraded by Coy OC and may be issued a 667B. USL cannot be taken when previously rostered for any duty or detail.

                3/ Most units use the timeline of between 0900-0930 to report for sick parade or call in a USL.After that you will be rang.No reponse you are absnt and name goes to the gate.

                4/ You can receive Sick leave(greater than 72 Hrs) or Excused duty(ED. Less than 72hrs) from the contract doctors at sick parade but if the CO believes you are monging(going sick off a detail) it he can order you to appear before the MO for review.Double edged sword as the MO might not cancel the sick leave and might actually extend it!! BMO can overrule that on a second review but it rarely happens.

                5/ Consistent going flat off of details will see you on front of the BMO and may see you medically downgraded which has implications for your career and employment.

                Now having said all that.The system is designed to catch the consistent malingerers "in the long grass". It also protects the genuine people. From one MO's mouth a "We are not interested in hammering the good lads,we know who the dossers are".
                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                Comment


                • #23
                  The USL limits were halved in the PS in the last round of "efficiencies". Nobody genuine had anything to fear from it. It also did away with the public impression that each PS worker was "entitled" to an additional 5 days "sick leave" per year along with annual leave.
                  In an organisation such as the DF, with fitness being such a priority, minor illness necessitating USL should be minimal. You should have less flus, colds and back ache absences than the average office worker. Injuries picked up during training necessitating sick leave should be certified.
                  The only downside with this is that you have people who instead of going USL now turn up for work and go hide for the duration.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    That has already been signed up to as part of the Haddington road agreement which if you do your homework you will see was two pay agreements back.We are now on Lansdowne road agreement 2(LRA2).Sick leave brought into line with the wider public sector.3 Months full pay.3 Months half pay and then you go on the "rehabilitation rate".No more people staying out on long term full pay for years whilst awaiting a board.
                    It was never introduced for the DF due to the nature of the job

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                    Exclusion of Members of the Permanent Defence Forces: The new regulations will not apply to members of the Permanent Defence Force but the broad principles of the new arrangements will.
                    I think that the duty pay is a misnomer really. Even paying someone double the existing rates, is still only an extra €20 for a 24hr duty. Rewarding pers for exercises would be a good step but the DOD already view that as the purpose of the MSA.

                    The financial impact of the paycuts, tax increases, public sector levies, increased work loads after the reorg, slashing of allowances etc etc etc all make the buck for the bang hard to justify. Take home pay was cut so far that it would be completely politically unjustifiable to get us back to a pay level where people are adequately rewarded.

                    I see your poijts about carrot & stick but as an organisation we are very poor at properly using either. I still say the only way to discourage ineffectivity is to make it financial.

                    The non financial matters that ordinarily fall into the remit of DCOS Sp through the vsrious Admin Instrs are now subject to increased oversight from DOD.

                    The current C&A system has long been identified as unworkable and in need of overhauling.

                    BTW a doctor can only recommend a max of 7 days SL. More than 7 days requires an MO. This is yet another example of rules that the DF choses to ignore because of the challenges the current CMU creates

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      [QUOTE=Fantasia;456705]It was never introduced for the DF due to the nature of the job

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                      It has been signed up to and under LRA2 which we just voted to accept it must be implemented. I am a PDFORRA rep so please don't tell me what I know and don't know.

                      Rewarding pers for exercises would be a good step but the DOD already view that as the purpose of the MSA.
                      MSA is NOT for that purpose.Nor for any other purpose other than to remunerate personnel for the fact that we are available for military SERVICE 365/24-7.As such it is more an anti-social hours allowance if you get a 0330 call out.A common misconception such as MSA being for medal mounting etc.Complete BS.

                      I see your poijts about carrot & stick but as an organisation we are very poor at properly using either. I still say the only way to discourage ineffectivity is to make it financial.
                      With that attitude you are either DoD,DPER or an Officer. Nice outside the box thinking.Punish everyone regardless of circumstances.Well done Sir.

                      The current C&A system has long been identified as unworkable and in need of overhauling.
                      Review board sitting this year with Independent chair. All sides agree it is not fit for purpose.

                      BTW a doctor can only recommend a max of 7 days SL. More than 7 days requires an MO. This is yet another example of rules that the DF choses to ignore because of the challenges the current CMU creates.
                      Incorrect.A civvy doctor can recommend as much SL as they want.It is up to the C.O, on the advice of the M.O, to accept this or not.I have seen certs being sent in for 3 weeks plus.MO accepted them and upheld them.I have also seen lads being brought in for review after going flat off of details via sick parade with contract Doctor. M.O upheld AND increased the SL awarded.
                      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by apod View Post
                        Please don't be THAT guy.Enough PDFORRA bashers on Facebook.Usually people who are Malcontents ,don't know how representation works and believe everything the barrack room lawyer spouts.PDFORRA fought over many years to bring the enlisted into line with the Officers in terms of USL's etc so please don't unfairly attack those of which who have stuck their necks out for their comrades benefit.


                        That has already been signed up to as part of the Haddington road agreement which if you do your homework you will see was two pay agreements back.We are now on Lansdowne road agreement 2(LRA2).Sick leave brought into line with the wider public sector.3 Months full pay.3 Months half pay and then you go on the "rehabilitation rate".No more people staying out on long term full pay for years whilst awaiting a board.

                        100% agree.We all know the wasters.The problem we face now is that the good reliable people are so sick and tired of taking up the slack that they are not playing ball anymore. We need to win these people back not punish them as they are feeling used and abused despite being loyal and reliable for may years when other were not.These people are the backbone of the DF and the backbone is very very bent at the moment.


                        No.Go the opposite.INCREASE MSA or even just duty allowances.Make deploying as an exercise troop or Mobile security for and exercise financially rewarding. Carrot before stick.We are well past stick at this time.


                        The current DF system is fit for purpose but is open to abuse like everywhere else.What you have described above is almost exactly the systems that are still in place for the PDF.Points to note.

                        1/ Sick at home(SAH).Only accepted if you live more than 6.2 Km from a Military Post with a doctor.72 Hours to submit a cert.Must say unfit to travel.Must see a Military doctor after 72 Hrs.C.O is Sick leave granting authority.Cert goes to M.O who decides if he agrees or disagrees with the findings.he reports to C.O.If M.O agrees the C.O MUST grant the sick leave.If M.O disagrees than the submitter is considered absent from the time they were supposed to present for work.

                        2/ USL. Max of 7 in a 12 Months period. Cannot take more than 2 in a row.Must present to Military doctor after that. Take anymore than five and you are paraded by Coy OC and may be issued a 667B. USL cannot be taken when previously rostered for any duty or detail.

                        3/ Most units use the timeline of between 0900-0930 to report for sick parade or call in a USL.After that you will be rang.No reponse you are absnt and name goes to the gate.

                        4/ You can receive Sick leave(greater than 72 Hrs) or Excused duty(ED. Less than 72hrs) from the contract doctors at sick parade but if the CO believes you are monging(going sick off a detail) it he can order you to appear before the MO for review.Double edged sword as the MO might not cancel the sick leave and might actually extend it!! BMO can overrule that on a second review but it rarely happens.

                        5/ Consistent going flat off of details will see you on front of the BMO and may see you medically downgraded which has implications for your career and employment.

                        Now having said all that.The system is designed to catch the consistent malingerers "in the long grass". It also protects the genuine people. From one MO's mouth a "We are not interested in hammering the good lads,we know who the dossers are".
                        Am curious .... how does all this work in the case, for example, where Pte Bloggs (28 Bn) is going sick? Nearest MO for 2 Bde is in Dublin!
                        "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          In my job, can have 2 USLs in a row. The third triggers a requirement for a doctor's letter and sign off of the Social Welfare sick cert, so my employer can claim back the sick pay entitlement (company pays for sick leave). Obviously as others mentioned above, a litany of USL will ensure a chat with manager (and same recorded for annual review)
                          "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by apod View Post
                            The most honest and accurate post on this issue I have read in a long time.Well said.
                            Those of us who have stuck around.usually due to financial/family circumstances are being flaaahd from having to take up the slack for the people that are missing. as a result people are getting burnt out and the taskings don't let up.They just keep on mounting up.
                            If our best asset is our people,then I put it that we are abusing and losing that asset.No amount of new equipment or recruits will alleviate that. We need to look after those we have and back them up as quickly as possible.
                            Mend the cracks in the dam and then refill the reservoir .Unless we do the former then the latter is a waste of time.
                            Nail hit firmly on head.

                            Stress, burn out, disillusionment are all key contributors to high sick leave rates. Without going into the remedies until the morale from the top down improves people will continue to go sick. It is almost impossible to rectify the absentee issues without looking at common denominators between the various groupings, identifying these and fixing the little things.


                            What absolutely pisses me off is the amount of Human Resources based education that persons in the DF hold and how much is allegedly handed over to personnel management and how they can't solve a straight forward issue like high rates of absenteeism.

                            The higher ups in the DF have forgotten how to look after their most valuable asset, their people.
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The increase in sick leave is symptomatic of an organisation that has lost its number 1 asset - the goodwill of its employees! How can it be resolved? I think we are long gone past the point of a quick resolution!
                              There is a solution if people had the will to identify it and work on it. Listen to the people affected and work with them to find realistic solutions. From the top down the management need to take their foot off the gas and apply the brake.

                              Stop trying to run a 9000 person army like you have 12000 people......Change how things are done.... move away from outdated practises and stop the upper levels of management trying to protect and further their careers on the backs of the enlisted.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                                There is a solution if people had the will to identify it and work on it. Listen to the people affected and work with them to find realistic solutions. From the top down the management need to take their foot off the gas and apply the brake.

                                Stop trying to run a 9000 person army like you have 12000 people......Change how things are done.... move away from outdated practises and stop the upper levels of management trying to protect and further their careers on the backs of the enlisted.
                                The best way to do that will make the situation worse and be politically unfeasible.... close the majority of the barracks around the country.

                                They do know what the problems are, they spent a fortune on the UL survey but initially completely misinterpreted the results. I had more than 1 general tell me that the results were favourable as a score of 2.5/5 showed that people were happy!

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