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  • Was there an incident a long time ago when a charge was placed on a sea mine. And the rib failed to start.?

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    • Originally posted by sofa View Post
      Was there an incident a long time ago when a charge was placed on a sea mine. And the rib failed to start.?
      Stories abound. Don't know that one. Some army personnel (Ordnance) were killed and injured trying to control a Mine in surf on one of our beaches, some years ago in the 50's maybe.

      Mine field type threats are generally from own defensive fields that shift in stormy weather. Bigger danger are ground influence mines sown by Air or Submarines to catch traffic on departure or arrival. A large ship sunk in a narrow channel will block a port for some time.

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      • The risk from old mines in our waters is extremely low. There are still sometimes an influence mine (magnetic) recovered in the UK, normally as they were air dropped into estuary areas and have sat in soft sand or mud until uncovered by changing tides. Any moored mine that was not disposed of at the end of the war will now have sunk and most likely the outer casing will have corroded away. As for munitions, nearly 2000 ships were sunk in our waters of which around 200 were warships during the 2 World Wars, majority being subs. How many of the cargo ships were carrying munitions I do not know, would need someone to spend a few years finding the manifests. However the warships all had munitions and the risk is that as they disintergrate these could become dislodged and end up in fishing nets, especially as wrecks are good places to find fish! But this threat does not requires and NS vessel rather Bomb Disposal to make safe whatever is hauled up by mistake.

        As for underwater IEDs has there ever been an incident?
        The attack on Mountbatten was with a bomb hidden onboard in the engine compartment rather than being an underwater IED.
        The attaching of a device to the hull of a cruise ship is not that easy: (a) the ship would have to be in port, (b) a suitable water tight device would have to be available, (c) this device would need some way of being attached to the hull of the vessel, (d) an experienced diver would need to somehow un-noticed get into the water carrying the IED, (e) the device would have to be a capable of remaining fixed to the ship when moving, etc etc, etc.
        And what would be the solution, better port security.

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        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          The risk from old mines in our waters is extremely low. There are still sometimes an influence mine (magnetic) recovered in the UK, normally as they were air dropped into estuary areas and have sat in soft sand or mud until uncovered by changing tides. Any moored mine that was not disposed of at the end of the war will now have sunk and most likely the outer casing will have corroded away. As for munitions, nearly 2000 ships were sunk in our waters of which around 200 were warships during the 2 World Wars, majority being subs. How many of the cargo ships were carrying munitions I do not know, would need someone to spend a few years finding the manifests. However the warships all had munitions and the risk is that as they disintergrate these could become dislodged and end up in fishing nets, especially as wrecks are good places to find fish! But this threat does not requires and NS vessel rather Bomb Disposal to make safe whatever is hauled up by mistake.

          As for underwater IEDs has there ever been an incident?
          The attack on Mountbatten was with a bomb hidden onboard in the engine compartment rather than being an underwater IED.
          The attaching of a device to the hull of a cruise ship is not that easy: (a) the ship would have to be in port, (b) a suitable water tight device would have to be available, (c) this device would need some way of being attached to the hull of the vessel, (d) an experienced diver would need to somehow un-noticed get into the water carrying the IED, (e) the device would have to be a capable of remaining fixed to the ship when moving, etc etc, etc.
          And what would be the solution, better port security.
          Just because it has never happened....

          It wouldn’t necessarily have to be attached to the vessel, it could be on the harbour floor or below the waterline on the quayside

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            Just because it has never happened....

            It wouldn’t necessarily have to be attached to the vessel, it could be on the harbour floor or below the waterline on the quayside
            Exactly it has never happened and is highly unlikely to happen except if a state was behind it. And unless the latter then improved port security is the answer.

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            • Who would have thought someone would fly 2 passenger jets into the Wtc?
              The use of an ied as a sea mine is very simple tech for any group. When it happens and a port is closed until the ship is recovered will you then decide the threat is worthy?
              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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              • Originally posted by na grohmit� View Post
                Who would have thought someone would fly 2 passenger jets into the Wtc?
                The use of an ied as a sea mine is very simple tech for any group. When it happens and a port is closed until the ship is recovered will you then decide the threat is worthy?
                Equally the threat of it without the capability to detect if such a device is present could close a port

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                • Compared to a land based IED a sea mine or maritime IED is complex.
                  Most IED devices on land are with a simple pressure plate, comand line detonation or with radio/phone command detonation, this is not so easy with a marine device. Trigger devices on influence mines (acoustic, magnetic, pressure) are extremely complex to build correctly. A marine pressure trigger has to be able to cope with the rise and fall of pressure due to a tide and yet detonate when a ship passes over, not that simple. Acosutic and magnetic are even more complex as to be effective they need to detonate under a ship. You do not want them going off every time a ship passes within a few hundred meters so sensitive is a very difficult thing to master. If you go for a command line from land then you need an observer who is able to tell when the vessel is over the device. On land markers are used, normally something visible at the side of the road that is mined. How would this would on the water? If the accuracy is +/- 50m then the device would need to be several tons to be effective.

                  I asked the question has there ever been a maritime IED and so far the answer is no, not because no-one has thought of it but because it is extremely difficult.

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                  • weelll....... technically.....

                    A Turkish Coast Guard sailor died and a fisherman wounded when a life raft with two bodies on it exploded. The incident happened off the coast of Samandağ in Hatay province, in the morning of 22nd …

                    IED Kills Turkish Coast Guard

                    A Turkish Coast Guard sailor died and a fisherman wounded when a life raft with two bodies on it exploded. The incident happened off the coast of SamandaÄŸ in Hatay province, in the morning of 22nd May 2016.

                    According to news reports, Ali Doğru, a local fisher, sighted a life raft with 2 dead persons, drifting 3 kilometers off the coast of Samandağ and informed the coast guard. One of the boats stationed in Çevlik, Samandağ was dispatched to investigate the incident. Çevlik is the southernmost Coast Guard base a few nautical miles away from Syrian border.

                    The explosion happened as the coast guard vessel tried to tow life raft. The sailor Alper Al, died and the fisher Ali DoÄŸru was injured. The divers later brought some pieces of the boat and some body parts from the sea floor.

                    The details of the incident is not enough to answer all the questions. It is not clear if it was a targeted attack against Turkish Coast Guard or not.

                    Previously boats rigged with explosives were used in suicide attacks against ships. These attacks such the one against USS Cole or M/T Limburg were intended attacks with a live driver bringing the boat to its determined target. Since the boat was drifting it is difficult to determine the intended target of this attack. Drifting mines were used to disrupt sea traffic in certain areas during war times, but I have not heard about drifting boats rigged with explosives. If one of the fighting parties in Syria, specially rigged the boat with an IED intending hurting the rescuers, this might be a first.
                    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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                    • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
                      Interesting but was it an IED? We don't know and I could find no follow up to the incident.
                      Last edited by EUFighter; 24 July 2018, 16:56.

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                      • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                        Compared to a land based IED a sea mine or maritime IED is complex.
                        Most IED devices on land are with a simple pressure plate, comand line detonation or with radio/phone command detonation, this is not so easy with a marine device. Trigger devices on influence mines (acoustic, magnetic, pressure) are extremely complex to build correctly. A marine pressure trigger has to be able to cope with the rise and fall of pressure due to a tide and yet detonate when a ship passes over, not that simple. Acosutic and magnetic are even more complex as to be effective they need to detonate under a ship. You do not want them going off every time a ship passes within a few hundred meters so sensitive is a very difficult thing to master. If you go for a command line from land then you need an observer who is able to tell when the vessel is over the device. On land markers are used, normally something visible at the side of the road that is mined. How would this would on the water? If the accuracy is +/- 50m then the device would need to be several tons to be effective.
                        A maritime IED could be very complicated or very crude, the shockwave of an IED could damage onboard machinery without the hull being breached. All you would for a RCIED/command wire is a fixed landmark.

                        In the dead of night there is an underwater unexplained explosive in a major port or a none specific phone warning to a major port..... potentially you have shutdown the port until everywhere is declared safe.

                        I asked the question has there ever been a maritime IED and so far the answer is no, not because no-one has thought of it but because it is extremely difficult.
                        i assumed you meant in Ireland, there has been elsewhere.

                        By Richard Battrick MSc MPA CEng FIExpE, Battrick Consultancy Limited





                        The rest of the world considers it a threat

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                        • I am talking world wide and in the contect of MCM on the future CPV vessels: so to be more precise I am talking about underwater based IEDs. And this was because in WP2015 it states "These ships will be replaced with similar vessels with countermine and counter-IED capabilities".
                          The term IED is an American media buzzword meant to scare and that is what is what it does. It gets lots of people talking mostly "BS" but it also drums up business for those smart enough to offer expensive solutions to low level risks. Just because everyone is jumping off a bridge does not mean you have to do it also!

                          The incidents such as the USS Cole or MV Limburg were all high speed dingies filled with explosives, a poor mans version of the Japanese Kaitens. None were a mine attached to the hull of a ship or a mine in the water over which the ship passed or which the ship struck. If there is to be a capability on the CPVs for the type of attacks which have taken place then a RWS with a rapid fire gun is what is needed, something like the MLG-27. The other area is then harbour security where fast armed harbour patrol boats are needed, could even be our home made "stealth" boats!

                          For a command line IED to work you need someone always there to activate it, so unless the Crosshaven Liberation Front are acting up, this would be noticed and reported. As for how effective it would be...... A road side IED works because it is within a meter or so of its intended target, if not directly under it. Shipping channels are not so narrow and there would need to be a chain on IEDs across the entire channel. How all this would be installed without anyone noticing is beyond me!

                          I am not saying it could never be just that the probability is extremely low, no matter how much it is talked about by others. As I indicated above, if there is one area where investment should be made then it is for rapid fire medium sized RWS with day/night stabilised optics.
                          Last edited by EUFighter; 24 July 2018, 21:32.

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                          • Our friends the Provos deployed maritime IEDs of sorts a few times.

                            Lough Foyle in the early 80s they boarded and bombed a couple of British-flagged coasters by placing bombs in the engine rooms.



                            Earlier in the 70s they had a slightly less successful bombing campaign against the Lough Neagh sand barges (because bombing your own people out of their livelihoods is a stated military aim).

                            Two fools entered the engine room of one vessel...placed and primed a bomb...but (most likely) couldn't operate the door mechanism to get back out of the engine room.

                            My late Father found one of their torsos bobbing around a couple of hours after the explosion.

                            Someone wrote a song about them I believe

                            Theres a cute statue in Toomebridge with their names on it too.
                            'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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                            • Lough Foyle in the early 80s they boarded and bombed a couple of British-flagged coasters by placing bombs in the engine rooms
                              Irish Naval Service did some of the EOD on those jobs. Was recorded in the book 'The Ninth Ship' by Martin Buckley.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                              • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                                Irish Naval Service did some of the EOD on those jobs. Was recorded in the book 'The Ninth Ship' by Martin Buckley.
                                That would make sense as one of the ships was salvaged by an Irish Company.

                                The Wikipedia article regarding the RFA Fort Victoria is incorrect...she was having her final fitting-out at H&W when the explosions occurred...not 'at anchor' in Belfast Lough.
                                'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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