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  • Jets/Light Fighters

    While I realise that this is purely academic, what fighter aircraft currently available or in final development would be an acceptable option for Ireland to operate, on cost and maintenance grounds I'm asking you to restrict it to lightweight types, (this is jus tone of those threads to help me argue my pro defence spending arguments a little better. and because I'm bored)

    What comes to mind for me is the following selection:
    F-5S/T Showing their age but at least as capable and durable as the Mig-21BIS, going at around E9m at the moment, this would be my choice if we suddenly turned into a nation non cowards overnight and needed something in the next 3 years.
    In the slightly more realistic (slightly) case of fighters being considered at the end of a 7-10 year regeneration project at Baldonnel, I'd look at the F-5s likely successor the M-346 and the two seat/trainer MB-346,
    other options that spring to mind are the KAI T-50 (more expensive) MAKO about which I know nothing and Hawk 200, which is awfully expensive for a converted trainer with a bunch of extra avionics stuffed in the back seat and nose.

    Go nuts
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  • #2
    Can we look at traditional non-suppliers? (China et al.) Also, can we consider cast offs?
    Meh.

    Comment


    • #3
      For a "real world" fighter/intercept capability we should go for refurbished F-5 's.
      I used to be a avid supporter of the L-159 for the AC but I think the F-5 would be the better of the two.

      What life expectancy could we expect from refurbished F-5's (20yrs plus - as with the Fougas) ?
      IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

      Comment


      • #4
        What is our hypothetical budget?????

        I think that F-5's are on the way out at this point. I would rather not supply the Air Corps with something designed in the 50s!
        Meh.

        Comment


        • #5
          I'd have to stick in the the KIA/Lockheed-Martin Talon T-50. Apart from that, the independent fighter from R.O.C. looks too heavy and they have had a lot of problems with it.
          I heard from somewhere that Casa were looking into a new improved Aviojet, but that was a while ago, don't know if there is anything happening with that, anyway it would not be much of an improvment on the PC-9M.
          There is a lot of merit in the F-5E option but the possablity of 20 years plus sounds a bit dodgey, even if upgrades were contracted [unlikely-the ******* we get for politicans are not known for foresight]
          IMO, there would be little possablity in anything from China being considerd.
          "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
          Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
          Illegitimi non carborundum

          Comment


          • #6
            Yooklid,could you get hold of the AMARC inventory,without getting into trouble,it's been removed from their website for security reasons.
            If there is any posablity of getting F-5E's thats where, more than likely,they would be got from.
            If you can't get the inventory, a list of available F-5E's would be worth looking at:flagwave: .
            "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
            Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
            Illegitimi non carborundum

            Comment


            • #7
              I am a big fan of westernised ex-soviet hardware. Plenty of options, especially with IAI out there doing all these upgrades. Any takers?
              Meh.

              Comment


              • #8
                Daft as it may seem, one of the things that has to be considerd for a future jet aircraft is the phyical size of the aircraft, in relation to the infrastructure at Bal'.
                This alone kills off several ex-USSR types.
                Of course when it comes to facilities for bertie's air taxie's; well that's a whole other matter!!!!
                "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                Illegitimi non carborundum

                Comment


                • #9
                  Maybe... Got to love those MiG 29s though.....

                  Y
                  Meh.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    No you don't, they suck ...

                    Before asking the question C-Q, lets hear your mission for these aircraft. Are they to be deployable? What level of force are they expected to provide defence against? From what direction? A2A or A2G? Out to what range? Alone or 'with a little help from our friends'?

                    Once we have that, then we really start to exercise our imaginations ...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      FFS, try and make a bit of small talk, I think most people would accept that a minimal intercept capability and CAS/SA training would be the extent of our realistic air defence.
                      You'll note that the F-5 is the largest aircraft I've mentioned (except possibly for the T-50 which might be around the same dimensions), The M-346 is athe result of a joint development between Aermaachi and Yakolev.
                      Furthermore the M-346, F-5, adn Mako offer excellent performance at low operating costs (I don't know about the Hawk 200, T-50 is currenty being pushed for single seat development but the two seater is apparently quit e the performer.)

                      Aidan: All we could really hope for in air defence is to be able to scramble and challenge intruders I think I'd question the sanity of any pilot who sought to take on a threat on his own when there are Tornados/Typhoons nearby and willing to help.
                      Although I've always been taken with the image of Irish F-5s flying alongside RAF Tornados kind of Symbolic...would give Tornado's a much better close in protection than hawks ( Tornado is pretty fkd if anything of an F-16 class gets in close) would make for good joint training.

                      Turkey: Bahrain took the last ever new build F-5 deliveries in 1985 and have all but retired them, the tried to sell them to another GCC country a few years ago but they asked too high a price.
                      "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Funny you should mention joint Air Corps/RAF jet operations, I have thought of the same thing in the past.
                        Would be a great sight all the same !

                        Currently, the nearest we get to that is joint (?) SAR training with RAF/RN helis.

                        Come-quickly,
                        What F-5's are currently available that you know of ?
                        Swiss examples ? AMARC examples only ? Other ? Prices ?
                        IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "All we could really hope for in air defence is to be able to scramble and challenge intruders I think I'd question the sanity of any pilot who sought to take on a threat on his own when there are Tornados/Typhoons nearby and willing to help."

                          Y'see, right there, I think you've answered your own question.

                          While, for a bundle of reasons, I'd like to see jet aircraft in IAC colours, I really don't think we can justify the purchase of 'light fighters' on any grounds other than national pride. The simple fact of the matter is that they offer very little military ability. They are simply too slow and lack the avionics fit to be of any practical use for 'territorial defence' in and of itself. And they are not deployable.

                          Again, the baseline has to be a supersonic fighter (even dash only) with BVR radar and missiles, and pgm ability for strike. So 16blk40, F/A18C, Gripen, is where the game begins now. Light fighters are not fighters. They are what third world countries buy when they can't afford the real thing.

                          Other European states of a comparable size to us tend to have legacy forces of fighter aircraft which they are now struggling to justify when its becoming clear that bringing 10-20 F-16s to the fight is nowhere near as important as bringing a Infantry/Mech Brigade, and the ability to support it with airlift. Particularly in the context of the RRF.

                          If we were having this discussion twenty years ago, I've a funny feeling I'd be making a strong argument for F/A-18s, with Hawks for LIFT (like the Finns eventually did). In this alternative universe, we could well have ended up with Sepcat Jaguars, Mirage F-1 or Vought A-7s as low cost strikers with an emphasis on the antiship role, but what the hey. Then there was a clear and present threat to this states territorial integrity. Now there really isn't, not in any realistic timeframe.

                          So my answer to your question would be not to bite, but to invest instead in building the army up to the point where it could deploy a number of battalions, or perhaps even a full brigade (with C4i, arty, armour, ADA and medium lift heli) for a short time. And sustain them while away with our own transport assets, air and naval.

                          (Now, hands up, who's surprised at my position? :D)

                          Although, stepping into the realms of fantasy for a moment ...

                          Were we to find ourselves in a position where we felt the pressing need to defend our sacred neutrality by force all by ourselves (what a mad idea!), and that we needed our own multirole strike fighters to do so, I'd go with a Northrop design alright, just not the F-5. In the early 1970s, when it became clear that the lightweight fighter competition for the USAF was where the next major batch of NATO sales was going to come from, Northrops designers stood back from the F-5 and its big brother, the F-20 Tigershark, and realised they needed to do better. They came up with the YF-17. After that lost the USAF end of the comp to the YF-16, the USN came calling and between them they redesigned it to the F/A-18. Its got two engines (!), a serious radar, BVR missiles, the C model can carry more or less all the ordnance types in the US inventory and plenty that isn't. The Finns, Australians and Swiss have all found it to be an excellent land based fighter. That'd be my suggestion.*

                          *There are about 30 old 18A models at Amarc available for upgrade

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            True enough, but while Ireland could never hope to defend its airspace against an aggressive well equipped threat. That scenario is hardly likely. There's nobody waiting offshore getting ready to invade Ireland. A bit like there's nobody waiting to invade Denmark or Belgium etc.

                            However, the Irish Air Corps should have some form of CAP capability. The ability to patrol and enforce air exclusion zones from the smallest of threats. Say, pranksters who want to buzz a Euro summit in a Cessna. Right now, we can't do that. Though PC9ms may fulfill that most basic of roles. And even were no clear and present exists, the basic capability should be there. The gardai will put a security cordon - does anyone say "ah sure who'e going to bother attacking the summit?"

                            Aircraft capable of escorting a civlilian airliner. Before anyone goes on about airliners belting along at 500mph - yes that would be the case at full pelt. The 9/11 hijackers were certainly giving them the welly and scrambled F-16 could not intercept. But at normal crusing speed, or even reduced speed, a captain could call on us for visual inspections of what he suspects is a damaged aircraft.

                            OK, VIP flypasts. Why not? We can't even do that right now. Look at the Bremen flypast. Embarrassing.

                            Army co-op. Training infantry on working with overhead jets.

                            And then there are the obvious domestic targets. - We all know what they are. Important foreign diplomatic and industrial targets. One in particular stands out. Stand by light combat aircraft at Baldonnel would get there a lot quicker than any supersonic aircraft from the UK.

                            The anti €1m Aero L-39ZA people should remember, the Czech airforce currently has them deployed protecting an air exclusion zone around that country's nuclear power plants.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The whole point about air-defence is that we cannot, without massive expenditure,[we are talking 50-60 billion€ here] defend this country against air-born attack.
                              But we do not have to!
                              In the event of a massive slide in world conditions to a world war suitation, we would have ample warning to start running off and buying F/A- 18's and get them operational, but only if the basic requirment is there, the foundation of a fighter based defence system, such as existed with the Vampires and to a far less extent with those flyin' abortions, the Fougas.
                              What a token force of say 12-16 F-5E's provide is the building blocks to a war-time defence force; the culture of air-defence, without which we could find ourselves with a very short future as a nation in the event of things going down the tubes.
                              But fighters, even light ones such as F-5's/T-50's/ Mako ect. provide this and also something more. They also provide an essential peace-time security,without which we do leave ourselves open to aggression, no matter which country is next door, who will after all be concerned with their own security first, and will not be thanked by over-burdened tax-payers for provideing a charitable form of air-defence to a quite well off country, that is too lazy and pig-ignorant to supply it's own
                              "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                              Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                              Illegitimi non carborundum

                              Comment

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