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GoneToTheCanner
16th August 2008, 18:10
Hi there
The Russian T-72s, as used by the Georgians, seemed to have followed the time-honoured convention of popping their turrets off when hit, as seen in downtown Gori.Also, they seem to have brought in T-62s and -55s.Not exactly premier-league stuff...
regards
GttC

Fireplace
16th August 2008, 20:10
Still, old T-62 and BMP-1 humiliate the western world.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/05ff6Vf0wz8mv/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aMlgjdg2Lg4k/610x.jpg

hptmurphy
16th August 2008, 22:35
No point in commiting the good stuff when the 'enemy' still uses the older stuff and looisng the expensive gear in minor events.

The sheer amount of older tanks that the Russians can field would be enough to overwhelm a country like georgia

Hardly worth risking the more expensive kit to land mines or RPGs where the loss of a T55 or T62 will proabaly do the job and if they are hit or destroyed the loss is far less expensive.

golden rivet
17th August 2008, 12:47
could this lead to worse conflict as it seems to be a challenge to the west and what is the main reason for the invasion

easyrider
17th August 2008, 13:57
Remember it all started when Georgian forces went into South Ossetia, thereby challenging the Russians. The main problem is that idiot who's President of Georgia.

Cereb
17th August 2008, 14:15
Remember it all started when Georgian forces went into South Ossetia, thereby challenging the Russians. The main problem is that idiot who's President of Georgia.
Well that's a matter of interpretation. The Russians have been supplying the rebels with some pretty heavy equipment and probably gave them the push to start shelling Georgian forces thereby initiating a Georgian response. It was planned by Russia from the beginning until the end.

greyfox
17th August 2008, 14:35
Remember it all started when Georgian forces went into South Ossetia, thereby challenging the Russians. The main problem is that idiot who's President of Georgia.

that is a rather sweeping statement to make the Russians have been stirring the pot in the region since the fall of communism and the peace loving south occetians were skirmishing on the border in weeks before the gorgions attacked ,, i would say the russians have alot to answer for invading a sovereign country. gorgions probably have allot to take a large portion ot the blame too .
The Russians keep most of the good stuff on the Chinese border ,, and in west the older stuff goes to areas where they face less of a threat

Come-quickly
17th August 2008, 17:41
Easyrider: Pot - kettle.

paul g
17th August 2008, 17:57
The russians are paranoid about the way the americans have been developing bases around their border in the past decade or so, and rightly so.

The T-72 has a number of design flaws especially the storage of ammunition propellant for its main gun, hence when its hit the results tend to be disasterous, the earlier T-55 and T62 are older, but better designed.

Victor
17th August 2008, 18:57
The russians are paranoid about the way the americans have been developing bases around their border in the past decade or so, and rightly so.They've been doing it for nearly a century or more from the Russia point of view.

paul g
17th August 2008, 19:30
Victor,

Can you tell us what source the attachment comes from.

Aidan
17th August 2008, 21:16
Finland is in kind of a strange category on that one. And Kazakstan and Belarus are a bit dubious also. Could that map be 10 years old?

Fireplace
17th August 2008, 22:22
The carousel autoloader with ammunition reserve stored under the floor is a death trap. You would have thought that the Russians would have changed things around when developing the T-72 into the T-90. At the time they probably hadn't got the resources for it. The Ukrainians changed around the T-84(re-developed T-80) with the Turkish tank contest in mind. 120mm gun in a bustle mounted autoloader. With blow out panels it's much safer for the crew, although the reserve doesn't seem to be kept in an armoured compartment like with western tanks.

Also worth nothing is that the Belgian CT-CV, talked about here for the Mowag, also has a bustle autoloader.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii134/Fireplace_01/oplotl.jpg?t=1219008016

Aidan
18th August 2008, 08:55
Apparently it's the reserve being stored in the open thats the main problem with the T-72B. Russian crews have stopped carrying this reserve - just going with whats in the autoloader - a lot of the tanks you see without a turret didn't lose the turret when hit, rather the crew were able to get out, but the ammunition went off later on and took the turret with it.

The T-71M that the iraqis used had even poorer armour, and generally had full racks of ammunition in the hull and turret. Which was interesting.

It wasn't just the russians who made that mistake - the Leo II has (or had anyways) ammunition stored in the hull next to the driver.

GoneToTheCanner
18th August 2008, 14:46
The Russians use to make export (monkey models, as they called them)examples of their tanks with lower-grade armour, no NBC protection, no wading equipment, no fire suppression,etc...
regards
GttC

The real Jack
18th August 2008, 22:01
They had a good 30 seconds of this on rte when they were talking aboot the russians withdrawing further into Georgia. :biggrin:

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=EBh9D2WIGsE

Muppet.

easyrider
18th August 2008, 22:09
Maybe his tie is his security blanket - it's all he's got left at this stage. :biggrin:

Fireplace
18th August 2008, 22:48
Photos taken August 21, 1968 as Soviets invade Prague. Much like the type of photos now coming out of Georgia, granted you don't see protests like those in the second photo in Georgia.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04U2b8F6S7aCF/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08t5fsL7uf9In/610x.jpg

GoneToTheCanner
18th August 2008, 23:15
In other news, a shock-troop of Russians invaded Gorey, having suffered a GPS failure.Once they realised that the natives needed labourers, cleaners, tyre fitters,newspaper sellers, they sold their weapons for scrap to tinkers after having helped to reclaim the breakaway enclave of Courtown, which had been populated by Dubs, and got to work. A brief rebellion from a dole queue of losers claiming that the Russians were "stealing our jobs", was squashed with menaces by a crack squad of recently hired Russian bouncers.........
regards
GttC

paul g
18th August 2008, 23:22
Haing been in a BMP-1 and BTR-70, and seen how cramped they are, it doesn't surprise me that they ride outside.

sofa
18th August 2008, 23:50
Haing been in a BMP-1 and BTR-70, and seen how cramped they are, it doesn't surprise me that they ride outside.

Also More chance of living if you run over a anti tank mine

womble
19th August 2008, 09:57
In other news, a shock-troop of Russians invaded Gorey, having suffered a GPS failure.Once they realised that the natives needed labourers, cleaners, tyre fitters,newspaper sellers, they sold their weapons for scrap to tinkers after having helped to reclaim the breakaway enclave of Courtown, which had been populated by Dubs, and got to work. A brief rebellion from a dole queue of losers claiming that the Russians were "stealing our jobs", was squashed with menaces by a crack squad of recently hired Russian bouncers.........
regards
GttC

very funny and quite possibly true

Turncoat
19th August 2008, 10:19
Haing been in a BMP-1 and BTR-70, and seen how cramped they are, it doesn't surprise me that they ride outside.

Or they might be riding outside because thats a Self propelled gun and has no seating?

GoneToTheCanner
19th August 2008, 15:43
TC, I think he's referring to the modern pic of the BMP-1. The Russians are also using BMD-1s, which are smaller again. There's at least one pic out there of a wrecked Georgian BMP-1, which looks like a giant stepped on it.
regards
gttC

Fireplace
19th August 2008, 16:02
Going a bit away from thread here's a photo of a rarely seen VSS Vintorez, 9 x 39mm with integral silencer. Prisoners being exchanged today, some sporting black eyes. :mad:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cPy0JcerY09Y/610x.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2242/20088196408b29e5e2e5fe0px1.jpg

paul g
19th August 2008, 16:10
I was indeed refering to the earlier picture of the BMP-1 in Georgia, and not the ASU-57 in Prague.

California Tanker
19th August 2008, 16:41
What ASU-57s?

Look at the chassis.

The Finnish army stopped carrying reserve rounds for the 125mm in the hull/turret as well, also going with only the autoloader loadout. There is an armoured floor between the carousel and the turret.
Of note, after the Great East German Army Closing Down Sale, the US found that 120mm M829A1 (The "Silver Bullet" of the 1991 war) was unable to frontally defeat T-72B with Kontact ERA.

NTM

paul g
19th August 2008, 17:26
Sorry, ASU-85.

Aidan
19th August 2008, 18:10
Armoursexuals!

GoneToTheCanner
19th August 2008, 19:07
They're worse than aerosexuals any day!
regards
GttC

Victor
19th August 2008, 21:34
Video here of well camouflaged tank and commentry on prisoner transfer.

Russian checkpoint in Georgia http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7571138.stm

Victor
19th August 2008, 22:03
Can you tell us what source the attachment comes from.My brain and MSPaint. :) The Russians do have a "we are being surrounded paranoia".

Finland is in kind of a strange category on that one.They are treaty bound that if anyone attacks ... erm .. the Soviet Union, via Finland, then they can enter Finland to defend themselves.

And Kazakstan Kazakstan is something like 48% Russian - and they know they can't defend themselves.

and Belarus are a bit dubious also. A bit one way I imagine.

Could that map be 10 years old?Made this weekend. :biggrin:

paul g
19th August 2008, 23:16
Finland however, accepted that treaty in 1948, at a moment of weakness, they did after all fight against the Russians three times in the 20th century to preserve their independence. Given that they've joined the E.U. and close links with Estonia, I'd hardly put them in the Russian's camp.

Finland is also a great place for Armoursexuals to visit, Ryanair fly to Tampere where you get the train to Hamelina, birthplace of Jean Sibelius, the classical composer, and home to the Finish army's artillery and armour museme, which are both well worth the visit, especially if you've got kids

Fireplace
19th August 2008, 23:31
Ruskies get new Humvees.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cUh12Ld5pdFm/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fPb7QZ2s0gak/610x.jpg

paul g
20th August 2008, 00:02
The probably got an awful lot of american communications gear as well

Fireplace
20th August 2008, 00:37
For those wondering, they are actually US army Humvees.

Orion
20th August 2008, 01:18
For those wondering, they are actually US army Humvees.


Spoils of War ......

GoneToTheCanner
20th August 2008, 16:06
In today's Times, it is said that the Russians took Humvees at gunpoint from Georgian police, knowing full well that no-one would retaliate.I'm only surprised that they haven't decided to take Tbilisi.
regards
GttC

California Tanker
20th August 2008, 18:03
They're going to have fun getting spare parts.

NTM

Aidan
20th August 2008, 18:15
Just walk down the street to their nearest Hummer dealership in Moscow surely?

Why they'd want them is a different matter entirely, of course. Maybe they just got sick of all of the Russian equipment the Americans have as trophies.

Finland eh?

Fireplace
20th August 2008, 18:43
Russian soldiers dig trenches and position a mortar close to the port city of Poti.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aSxfwJ4WRf8K/610x.jpg

Docman
20th August 2008, 19:26
An interesting article from Yahoo news.

Little bit on the M4 vs AK-47 as well.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080818/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_military_tested;_ylt=AqaAlsgpyVuoM.2BOLfGT xis0NUE

US trainers say Georgian troops weren't ready

By MATTI FRIEDMAN, Associated Press Writer

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080818/capt.a9a4504712024d838ff6fc2acc0cd8a0.georgia_us_m ission_interrupted_mosb111.jpg?x=180&y=119&q=85&sig=xn1R2k8T8CetIJdEOKzoLw--

TBILISI, Georgia - U.S. military trainers — the only American boots on the ground — say the Georgian soldiers they knew who were sent to battle the Russians had fighting spirit but were not ready for war.

The Georgians were "beginning to walk, but by no means were they running," said Army Capt. Jeff Barta, who helped train a Georgian brigade for peacekeeping service in Iraq. "If that was a U.S. brigade it would not have gone into combat."

Now on standby at the Sheraton Hotel, unarmed and in civilian clothes, six of the American trainers offered a glimpse at the 5-year-old U.S. mission and at the performance of the outnumbered and outgunned Georgian military in its defeat by Russia.

The Americans arrived for work Aug. 7 to unexpectedly find training was over for the unit they had been assigned to for three weeks, the 4th Brigade: The Georgian soldiers were sitting on their rucksacks and singing folk songs as an Orthodox priest walked among them chanting and waving incense.

Then buses and trucks took the troops off toward Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, where there had been sporadic clashes and shelling during the previous week. That night the Georgian army began an offensive trying to retake the Russian-supported region, and by the following morning hundreds of Russian tanks were rolling across the border.

"From what I've heard, a lot of the 4th Brigade was hit pretty hard," said Rachel Dejong, 24, a Navy medic from Richmond, Ind.

The Georgian company commander who was training alongside Barta was killed.

"Some of the soldiers seemed really grateful for the things we taught them," said Barta, a 31-year-old from Columbus, Ohio, but he acknowledged it was not nearly enough.

Trainers start with the basics of infantry warfare — shooting, taking cover, advancing — then on to squad and platoon maneuvers, Barta said.

The Georgians do not lack "warrior spirit," he said, but added that they weren't ready for combat.

They inherited bad habits from the Red Army, whose soldiers wouldn't move without a direct order from a superior, and need to be taught to think on their own, Barta said. To make things more difficult, many soldiers "come from the hills of Georgia, and some of them sign for their paycheck with an X," he said.

The Georgian army has five regular infantry brigades, each with some 2,000 troops. Only one of them — the 1st, which was rushed home from Iraq by U.S. planes after fighting broke out — has been trained to a NATO level.

There are also units of poorly trained reservists, Georgian men who do 18 days of one-time military training and then eight days a year into their 40s. Officially, the government says it has 37,000 regular soldiers and 100,000 reservists.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, some of the American trainers spoke bluntly about problems with the Georgian troops, who one veteran sergeant said "got torn up real bad."

The Americans were training them to use the U.S. military's M-4 rifles, he said. But when fighting broke out, the Georgians went back to the Soviet AK-47, the only weapon they trusted. They appeared incapable of firing single shots, instead letting off bursts of automatic fire, which is wildly inaccurate and wastes ammunition, he said.

Another problem was communications: As soon as combat began, the army's communications network largely collapsed, he said, so troops conducted operations using regular cell phones. That left their communications easily accessible to Russian intelligence.

"Were they ready to go? The answer is no," the sergeant said.

The U.S. trainers come from different branches of the military: Marines, Army, Navy and special forces. Most have combat experience in Iraq or Afghanistan. At the moment, according to the trainers, there are fewer than 100 of them in the country.

Officially their job is to get the Georgians ready to serve in Iraq, where the country has maintained a 2,000-man contingent.

Unofficially, some of the trainers acknowledge, the program hopes to give the U.S. a more robust ally on Russia's border in a country that houses a vital oil pipeline.

The Americans aren't the only ones here. Georgian corporals and sergeants train with Germans, alpine units and the navy work with French instructors, and special operations and urban warfare troops are taught by Israelis, said Georgia's deputy defense minister, Batu Kutelia.

While the U.S. mission is specifically aimed at getting troops ready for Iraq, the "overall goal is to bring Georgia up to NATO standards," Kutelia said in an interview at the Defense Ministry on Sunday.

This former Soviet republic has allied itself with the West and has hopes of joining NATO, ambitions that Russia has seen as a challenge to its influence and security.

Kutelia said Georgian troops who had trained with the Americans and other foreign forces — about half of the military — performed better in the war than those who didn't.

It isn't clear how many Georgian units actually had a chance to put what they learned into practice.

One Georgian officer who returned from the front said the army succumbed not to one-on-one combat but to overwhelming Russian air power. The officer, who appeared shaken by what he saw, showed photographs of Georgian military jeeps destroyed from the air, the bodies of their occupants lying bloated on the road.

He would not give his name because he was not authorized to speak to journalists.

Barta, the Army captain, said of the company he was training: "I know specifically that Bravo Company, I'm sure, and I hope from what I did for them, that they're better off than they would have been if this happened four weeks ago."

An independent Georgian military expert, Koba Liklikadze, said the U.S. training was not a deciding factor, attributing the army's loss to bad decisions by the government. Georgia declared a cease-fire too soon, he said, which demoralized the troops before most of them had a chance to fight.

"It was not an absolutely decisive factor whether Georgians were trained by Americans or not," he said. "What happened was due to the political decision of Georgian authorities, and not the performance on the ground."

The U.S. program has been interrupted, and critically damaged, by the war. The Georgian army has been dealt a harsh blow: While official statistics claim 180 fatalities, soldiers and civilians, Liklikadze estimated the number of dead or missing soldiers at 400.

Many Georgian military bases, including the main U.S. training facility at Vasiani, were damaged or destroyed.

The U.S. trainers now lounging at the Tbilisi Sheraton have been relegated to following the situation from the hotel's carpeted halls and glass elevators. They seem eager to either get back to work or leave.

With the future of their mission uncertain, the trainers have been drafted to help the U.S. aid operation that began last week. But it is hard to avoid the impression they would rather be elsewhere.

"I'm not saying that we're suffering here with the one million-thread-count sheets or checking out the local females at the pool," said Capt. Pongpat Piluek, a veteran of the Afghanistan war. "But if our job now is to sit here and put down roots in the couch, I'd rather do it at home."

Fireplace
20th August 2008, 21:48
Video of Georgian soldiers allegedly shooting South Ossetian civilians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCWrSBoKel4

Fireplace
21st August 2008, 14:03
A Russian truck carrying what looks like a Cobra.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/046Jf591UV6Pq/610x.jpg

GoneToTheCanner
21st August 2008, 14:51
What's the Russian for "Howya,Boss.Any scrap?"
regards
GttC

Fireplace
21st August 2008, 16:38
Russian tanks drive from Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia towards the Roki tunnel that leads into Russia.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fmf6pd2dBcTc/610x.jpg

Russian soldiers man a checkpoint near the Georgian village of Kekhvi in breakaway South Ossetia. Obviously no worries that something is going to hit those ERA blocks!

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03nXeax8rAeGA/610x.jpg

A Russian soldier on a military vehicle, travels on a main road leading to Poti. :smile:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/052p9Qabe515u/610x.jpg

Fireplace
24th August 2008, 14:46
Russian has being displaying it's latest armour offerings in Moscow during the week. The BMP-3 looks good but as can be seen from these photos, getting out of it isn't exactly easy. Especially if that big engine took a hit.

More good photos at:
http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/83

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii134/Fireplace_01/1219426696_o.jpg?t=1219585420

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii134/Fireplace_01/1219425948_o.jpg?t=1219584891

concussion
24th August 2008, 15:10
A Russian soldier on a military vehicle, travels on a main road leading to Poti. :smile:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/052p9Qabe515u/610x.jpg

Is that a sawn-off Dragunov?? Or have they changed it to a carbine?

Edit - It's a VSS which is fitted with a suppressor and fires a 9mm sub-sonic round.
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn20-e.htm

easyrider
24th August 2008, 21:48
Wonder if those cushions are standard issue?

Fireplace
24th August 2008, 22:07
Wonder if those cushions are standard issue?

Or these mattresses...

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eKefXHcYnd4g/610x.jpg

DeV
25th August 2008, 17:32
Russian version of US slat armour??

California Tanker
25th August 2008, 17:36
Not as if the US invented stand-off armour.

NTM

Fireplace
25th August 2008, 18:50
Les Francais. Schneider CA-1, 1916.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii134/Fireplace_01/Capture11.jpg?t=1219686499

Fireplace
26th August 2008, 14:05
Russian peacekeeping forces secure the area during a demonstration by Georgians outside the Russian base in Teklati, near Poti, western Georgia.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eXx2GR45r6aE/610x.jpg

Fireplace
5th October 2008, 22:53
EU monitors in Georgia.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bws8Dlf0seAq/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cI665u2yIg4Y/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0c26fUnb7Gdhn/340x.jpg

Goldie fish
6th October 2008, 01:33
Auverland?

Fireplace
6th October 2008, 14:33
The Auverland PVP, marketed as Panhard.

Accompanied here by what looks like some type of G-Wagon.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04Op6VFalKfUy/610x.jpg

thebig C
11th October 2008, 22:18
The Auverland PVP, marketed as Panhard.

Accompanied here by what looks like some type of G-Wagon.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04Op6VFalKfUy/610x.jpg

Hi all! Long time observer...first post!

Thats a Dzik. Its from Poland. It is currently used by the Polish Military but has also around 1000 have been ordered by the Iraqi Police/Interior milistry.

Slightly off topic, but the same company make an LATV called the Tur, and an upgraded version, Tur 2. It would seem to fit the specs for our LTAV with the bonus of being cheaper.....plus it might win favour with alot of the population:smile: Assuming we don't wish to award every contract to the Swiss:biggrin: