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ancientmariner
24th April 2015, 10:17
It seems we are about to send one of our ships to rescue migrants in peril of the sea. I'm thinking medical cover, including midwifery, injuries, dehydration, and infections. Clothing, food, of suitable categories. Ablution and toilet facilities. Adequate cover with deck insulated sheeting beneath. It will be a big task but should be within our compass, especially if we could work with another navy. We wish them well.

Schmigs
24th April 2015, 10:58
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/migrant-crisis-state-to-contribute-ship-to-rescue-operations-1.2186617


The Republic is to contribute a fully crewed and equipped ship to search and rescue efforts in the Mediterranean, Taoiseach Enda Kenny has said.
Speaking on his way into today’s EU extraordinary summit in Brussels on migration, the Taoiseach said that the State would offer a naval vessel to humanitarian operations in the Mediterranean.
“Depending on the caveats and the legal requirements here in respect of search and rescue for humanitarian functions, we are prepared to allocate a fully crewed and equipped naval vessel once the legal clarifications become clear.”

ropebag
24th April 2015, 11:05
...I'm thinking medical cover, including midwifery, injuries, dehydration, and infections. Clothing, food, of suitable categories. Ablution and toilet facilities. Adequate cover with deck insulated sheeting beneath. It will be a big task but should be within our compass, especially if we could work with another navy. We wish them well.

they won't need all that - they'll probably operate close to Malta, heave people out of the sea, set fire to the boat/deathtrap and be in Malta 3 hours later. they'll need lots of bottles of water, a big sunscreen lashed over the old flightdeck, and some basic first aid provision and a bucket.

given that HMS Bulwark and two other RN 'patrol' ships are going (an RFA..?) you could just piggy-back on our Logs system.

hptmurphy
24th April 2015, 12:18
L.E. Eithne while might seem like the preferred option has a very high free board to get people aboard unless the accomadation ladders are used,
L. E, Samuel Beckett with its TEU capacity and lengthened after deck might be a better option.

ancientmariner
24th April 2015, 13:20
they won't need all that - they'll probably operate close to Malta, heave people out of the sea, set fire to the boat/deathtrap and be in Malta 3 hours later. they'll need lots of bottles of water, a big sunscreen lashed over the old flightdeck, and some basic first aid provision and a bucket.

given that HMS Bulwark and two other RN 'patrol' ships are going (an RFA..?) you could just piggy-back on our Logs system.

Migrants could be on board more than 24 hours. A hundred people or more need taking care of and a bucket sounds dismissive. Water and shelter, especially from hot decks needs consideration. It is not unusual for people to be taken on board bare footed and soaked.Suitable sustenance and first aid is obvious. Never burn boats but disposal of a completely abandoned craft needs consideration. We have sunk at least one ship by gunfire and it took time to complete the task. I have had experience of carrying worker deck passengers from Port Said to Suez through the Canal. Water, wooden pallets, and canvas screens were provided. we had external stations with boiling water for making drinks and 4 deck toilets Moslem style . I agree we should hold hands with HMS Bulwark

DeV
24th April 2015, 14:43
The 2 "other RN vessels" are UK Border Patrol vessels

ropebag
24th April 2015, 15:15
looks like we might be sending Bulwark in a command and control capacity rather than to actually pick peopl out of the sea - it turns out some lawyer has reminded the Govt that refugees/whatever can ask for asylum as soon as they enter your territory, and HM ships class as territory, so no dumping them in Italy for the Italians to deal with/pay for...

i'm shocked, shocked i tell you - and only two weeks out from an election dominated by the issue of immigration.

Sparky42
24th April 2015, 15:23
looks like we might be sending Bulwark in a command and control capacity rather than to actually pick peopl out of the sea - it turns out some lawyer has reminded the Govt that refugees/whatever can ask for asylum as soon as they enter your territory, and HM ships class as territory, so no dumping them in Italy for the Italians to deal with/pay for...

i'm shocked, shocked i tell you - and only two weeks out from an election dominated by the issue of immigration.

Thought that was going to be the legal demand from Cameron? To be honest I figure that's the "legal clarification" that Enda want's as well, either that or something about not sinking the boats I guess.

ancientmariner
24th April 2015, 15:25
The Law of the Sea requires all able to render aid to do so in order to save life. Don't process them as refugees. Just land them to be processed as required. They are shipwrecked or abandoned sea going persons/passengers. I wonder if the Preventative vessels have the range to steam south or will they be transported?

spider
24th April 2015, 16:48
The 2 "other RN vessels" are UK Border Patrol vessels That makes more sense than sending expensive Naval assets.

Sparky42
24th April 2015, 16:53
That makes more sense than sending expensive Naval assets.

Particularly as the RN cupboard is pretty damn empty.

spider
24th April 2015, 17:15
Particularly as the RN cupboard is pretty damn empty. Indeed...seems to be the problem lots of Navies have these days. Those Border Agency Cutters are intended for this very role...patrolling the English Channel to prevent human trafficking (amongst other things). So a good call by Cameron.

DeV
24th April 2015, 18:12
I presume the clarification is that there is also talk of using force against people smuggling ops (and the refuge situation).


The Law of the Sea requires all able to render aid to do so in order to save life. Don't process them as refugees. Just land them to be processed as required. They are shipwrecked or abandoned sea going persons/passengers. I wonder if the Preventative vessels have the range to steam south or will they be transported?

. The clarification must be on what if someone claims refugee status while on board, we can't just do what we like internation humanitarian and human
Rghts law we are talking about.

DeV
24th April 2015, 18:24
http://www.imo.org/MediaCentre/HotTopics/seamigration/Documents/UNHCR-Rescue_at_Sea-Guide-ENG-screen.pdf

Some relevant info here

Sparky42
24th April 2015, 18:31
I presume the clarification is that there is also talk of using force against people smuggling ops (and the refuge situation).


If the people have been taken off already I don't see why Ireland should have a problem with sinking them to prevent their reuse to be honest.

ropebag
24th April 2015, 18:43
If the people have been taken off already I don't see why Ireland should have a problem with sinking them to prevent their reuse to be honest.

i would imagine that a barely floating, unmanned vessel in busy shipping lanes was a danger to all mariners, and that a consciencous and professional NS officer would take such action as he saw fit to ensure that an unneccesary hazard to shipping was removed.

with a 76mm gun.

Sparky42
24th April 2015, 18:59
i would imagine that a barely floating, unmanned vessel in busy shipping lanes was a danger to all mariners, and that a consciencous and professional NS officer would take such action as he saw fit to ensure that an unneccesary hazard to shipping was removed.

with a 76mm gun.

Sounds good to me, hope they take some film of it, though then the crusties might get upset...

hptmurphy
24th April 2015, 20:18
The Law of the Sea requires all able to render aid to do so in order to save life.

The Law of the Sea third edition by Churchill and Lowe makes no mention of the subject.I think its a moral obligation as opposed to actual Law.


The clarification must be on what if someone claims refugee status while on board

Yeah thought this might be an issue, given the ship is seen as being sovereign property and an extension of Ireland the state.


consciencous and professional NS officer would take such action as he saw fit to ensure that an unneccesary hazard to shipping was removed.

with a 76mm gun.


Wouldn't be the first time, navigation hazard removal is well within the remit of the NS, LE Eithnes trip to Argentina gives some footage of same . Took part in some it myself on Eithne back in the 80's

DeV
24th April 2015, 21:19
The Law of the Sea third edition by Churchill and Lowe makes no mention of the subject.I think its a moral obligation as opposed to actual Law..

UNCLOS requires it
SOLAS obliges you

tomh903
24th April 2015, 22:25
Unfortunately we will (along with everyone else who sends a ship) probably just end up contributing to the problem if we follow the line currently set out by every brain dead EU leader which is providing anything less than an express ferry service to Europe makes you heartless xenophobic right-wing bastard. The way we're going, hundreds more Africans are going to end up drowning in the Med by the time the year is out. In these situations you have three options:

1. Completely open up the borders to whoever wants to come.
2. Do the same thing we are doing now which not that different to option one except we hold them in a camp for a few months before leaving them roam free in the EU.
3. Blockade the ports where the boats are coming from or tow back all boats trying to reach Europe illegally.

Well you can't follow option one for obvious reasons and option two just encourages smugglers to cram more people onto flimsy craft and ship them to Europe. Option three is the only option that has proven effective in modern times. Before a leader with the balls to ignore the more hysterical elements of the media came to power, Australia had the exact same problem as we face now. Then Abbott was elected and ordered the navy to turn around every boat they found trying to reach Australia and whala, boats stopped, illegal immigrants stopped drowning and people could stop worrying about some unsavoury characters slipping into the country unnoticed. There are never going to be enough navy boats to pluck everyone out of the Med so unless we are going to actually stop the boats leaving Libya, then don't bother going at all. Sometimes tough love saves lives.

hptmurphy
24th April 2015, 23:24
UNCLOS requires it
SOLAS obliges you

and none of these are unilaterally ratified.

Laners
25th April 2015, 07:27
Minefields , that'l stop them .

FMP
25th April 2015, 08:20
option two just encourages smugglers to cram more people onto flimsy craft and ship them to Europe.

Absolutely, it will be open season for all and sundry and it will become a selling point for traffickers. Just head in that direction and the navy will pick you up and take you the rest of the way. Far from actually sorting the problem out it will compound it. Fair enough provide assistance to those in need of food, water, medical attention, but do it on route back to their point or origin. Once back in that territories waters, sorry chaps your on your own.

Essentially all we will be doing is assisting in providing safe transport and attending to the welfare needs of untold numbers while they are in transit, and have to watch those numbers increase as a result of it. The issue needs to be dealt with at source and unfortunately that's what our illustrious politicians are refusing to do.

Jetjock
25th April 2015, 09:59
Send Eithne. Case made for an EPV as a replacement at a single stroke.

na grohmiti
25th April 2015, 10:14
Her former helideck can be covered in the marquee that's usually used for functions aboard. Only a short walk from the waterline access.

ancientmariner
25th April 2015, 10:55
Her former helideck can be covered in the marquee that's usually used for functions aboard. Only a short walk from the waterline access.

We may need to think about this project more. People trafficking, especially out of North African Region is a complex business with many actors. Globally 16million people have migrated and 33million people are internally displaced in countries with fragmented political systems or at war. The supply is therefore, in relative terms, endless. Damaging the transport at point of rescue, whether near shore ,or on approach of a rescue craft is part of the conditions of paid passage. Those sent on the short journey between Turkish territory and Greece are told to puncture their inflatables near shore so that they have to be rescued. There is no solution to the advantage of the EU or the migrants themselves. The only solution is stability and peace in their own countries and an ability to adapt to climate change in the long term. Looking at world migration maps many migrates die in transit including in the Americas and the Far East with Australia. The initial action has to be stop the boats and render aid in the areas of migrant assembly before they embark into the unknown.

DeV
25th April 2015, 11:41
Absolutely, it will be open season for all and sundry and it will become a selling point for traffickers. Just head in that direction and the navy will pick you up and take you the rest of the way. Far from actually sorting the problem out it will compound it. Fair enough provide assistance to those in need of food, water, medical attention, but do it on route back to their point or origin. Once back in that territories waters, sorry chaps your on your own.

Essentially all we will be doing is assisting in providing safe transport and attending to the welfare needs of untold numbers while they are in transit, and have to watch those numbers increase as a result of it. The issue needs to be dealt with at source and unfortunately that's what our illustrious politicians are refusing to do.

You can't return them to Libya if they have escaped there to claim refugee status

na grohmiti
25th April 2015, 12:33
We may need to think about this project more. People trafficking, especially out of North African Region is a complex business with many actors. Globally 16million people have migrated and 33million people are internally displaced in countries with fragmented political systems or at war. The supply is therefore, in relative terms, endless. Damaging the transport at point of rescue, whether near shore ,or on approach of a rescue craft is part of the conditions of paid passage. Those sent on the short journey between Turkish territory and Greece are told to puncture their inflatables near shore so that they have to be rescued. There is no solution to the advantage of the EU or the migrants themselves. The only solution is stability and peace in their own countries and an ability to adapt to climate change in the long term. Looking at world migration maps many migrates die in transit including in the Americas and the Far East with Australia. The initial action has to be stop the boats and render aid in the areas of migrant assembly before they embark into the unknown.

My thoughts exactly, mentioned on another thread. Long term, stabilising the failed states from where they are fleeing is the only solution. But Africa seems unable to do this, and Europe is unwilling, while the USA would just be unwelcome.

ancientmariner
25th April 2015, 13:26
The trouble is that the decision and possible action chain is contaminated by National exigencies. Such as imminent elections, financial crisis in Greece, and general meltdown in relations in the Middle East and Asia Minor. The potential interlinking of moral obligation and damaging current social fabric is reminiscent of opening Pandora's Box. The crux is those that implement decisions ie Navies ,receive their instructions from politically motivated amateurs who forget to look at consequences and collateral effects. The old adage applies whatever you do , do no harm. In this case we hand it to the UN and a committee from the involved nations.

Jetjock
25th April 2015, 13:51
Her former helideck can be covered in the marquee that's usually used for functions aboard. Only a short walk from the waterline access.

Exactly my thinking. Plenty of space for chemical toilets etc outside hangar. Easy to secure also. Convert the hangar as a medical facility/distribution point for bottled water/food.

There is simply not enough free deck space on the new OPV design to perform the rescue role. Perfect for counter trafficing patrols though. Still, that flight deck deemed unnecessary by some would be useful for both roles.

tomh903
25th April 2015, 14:10
You can't return them to Libya if they have escaped there to claim refugee status

Then blockade the ports they are leaving from. At this stage, the Italians are seriously considering that option.

spider
25th April 2015, 14:14
Just land them in Liberland... http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/liberland-europes-tiny-new-country-where-taxes-are-optional-31151279.html

Job done.

Galloglass
25th April 2015, 14:26
Can anybody explain how so many emigrants are sailing from Turkey to Greece? A "NATO" country with a huge Navy is "apparently" unable to secure it's own coastal area and stop emigrants sailing to another" NATO" country.....Yet the EU is going to stop emigrants and "push" them back to the Libyan coast? Has anyone got any idea how the Libyans might react to foreign naval vessels doing this?
I wonder what would happen if the thousands camped around Calais got together bought a fishing boat and headed for Dover?

Laners
25th April 2015, 14:50
Remember Tony Montana , AKA Scareface , arrived in Florida with lots of undesireable as refugees compliments of Castro . Castro pulled a fast on on the U.S and cleared out his common criminals and the mental hospitals .

spider
25th April 2015, 15:06
I wonder what would happen if the thousands camped around Calais got together bought a fishing boat and headed for Dover?

They don't really need to...plenty of unscrupulous lorry drivers / boat owners...or they can make the dash for a lorry themselves...

Maybe they're more likely to buy a boat and head for Cork.

What then?

DeV
25th April 2015, 15:16
and none of these are unilaterally ratified.

No but if your country is a signatory or has ratified it then your bound to it (Ireland has)

DeV
25th April 2015, 15:17
Then blockade the ports they are leaving from. At this stage, the Italians are seriously considering that option.

Isn't a naval blockade considered an act of war?

hptmurphy
25th April 2015, 15:23
You can't return them to Libya if they have escaped there to claim refugee status

but they are not Libyans, merely using Libya as a departure point, so in law thats exactly where they should be returned to.

PersonallY I wouldn't be using L.E. Eithne, while you can use the accomadation ladders to get aboard , theres only one access to the flight deck without going through the rest of the ship. If you are going to use it , the hanger becomes a storage area for blankets etc and a triage area. Its only to facilitate the transit of the people, not bring them home.You don't want to block the main egress route from below decks with casualties.

hptmurphy
25th April 2015, 15:25
The potential interlinking of moral obligation and damaging current social fabric is reminiscent of opening Pandora's Box

Iraq being case in point. Return them to where they embarked and let Libya sort it out.

ropebag
25th April 2015, 15:49
Isn't a naval blockade considered an act of war?

Libya doesn't have a government who'se writ runs more than about 6ft from its cabinet table. if such an entity decided that a blockade was an act of war and that a state of war existed between it and the EU, the consequences for the EU would not be particularly onerous.

morever Libya has two such 'governments', the one internationally recognised and dependant on the EU for its funding, and the other that no one recognises. its the one no one recognises thats getting shirty about EU forces blowing up rickety fishing boats.

DeV
25th April 2015, 16:20
Iraq being case in point. Return them to where they embarked and let Libya sort it out.


You can't do that either!!

hptmurphy
25th April 2015, 18:53
You can't do that either!!

Thats European law on the issue, that illegal immigrants are returned to point of entry which in this case is Libya.

hptmurphy
25th April 2015, 18:55
Isn't a naval blockade considered an act of war?

Do as JFK did during the Cuban crises and term it a quarantine in order to filter traffic coming out of Libya once its outside Libyas EEZ won't be a legal issue

Laners
25th April 2015, 19:13
Do as JFK did during the Cuban crises and term it a quarantine in order to filter traffic coming out of Libya once its outside Libyas EEZ won't be a legal issue

And filter the traffic trough the minefield .

DeV
25th April 2015, 22:03
Thats European law on the issue, that illegal immigrants are returned to point of entry which in this case is Libya.

You can't return them to a country where they escaped armed conflict (eg Libya)

ancientmariner
25th April 2015, 22:08
I would apportion some blame to the implementation of regime change in the Middle East, followed by the Arab Spring across North Africa, and overlaid with radical Islamisation in East Africa and Nigeria. The West were conned into supporting interests with hidden agendas who once on the ascendent proceeded to hunt and displace internal ethnic populations. Hence the migrants and migration. Libya is only a place, maybe with agreement of the North African states it should become a UN Territory and try to restore normality. The migration by sea has to stop as most Navies will be run ragged chasing their tails for no benefit except to the traffickers.

Orion
25th April 2015, 22:25
Maybe they're more likely to buy a boat and head for Cork.

What then?

They'll need some boat ... more rescues

spider
25th April 2015, 23:52
They'll need some boat ... more rescues

Its about the same distance as Libya to Italy...more rescues...then what?

My point is...we need to start thinking about this...and we need to stop this at source...before it becomes either a United Kingdom or Ireland problem.

I wouldn't ever assume that your geographical location will protect you from this landing on your doorstep.

I was speaking to a lady on Tuesday night who recently ran the gauntlet at Calais...frightening apparently.

This thing is going to get huge before it goes away.

South Belfast...yes South Belfast is already teeming with Somalis...particularly around the Holy Lands...one murdered another earlier this year.

And they are arriving here legally. Imagine the scene if Ireland...and Northern Ireland...got hit by waves of illegals.

If you'd said to me ten years ago that there would be Somali refugees living in Belfast I'd have laughed at you...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26189348

FMP
26th April 2015, 06:49
Part of the whole issue is that this has been approached as a humanitarian mission, a stop people drowning mission, therefore an SAR mission rather than a border control mission. An interception of illegals mission which is what it is, were just too afraid of the PC lobby to call it that. Its what Frontex refers to it as so why cant the rest of us.

We are all well aware that the duty to rescue people in distress is a longstanding maritime tradition and is part of customary international law. It is expressed in the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and in several other international law of the sea instruments. The duty to render assistance applies in all maritime zones and to every person in distress without discrimination, including asylum-seekers and refugees. However the specific legal framework governing rescue at sea does not apply to interception operations that have no search and rescue component.

So we started off on the wrong foot there as we are stating that Humanitarian assistance (and therefore rescue) is our mission. So how does the UN define an interception?

There is no internationally accepted definition of interception, and its meaning is largely informed by State practice. UNHCR Executive Committee Conclusion No. 97 (2003) on “Protection Safeguards in Interception Measures” contains a working definition of interception as “one of the measures employed by States to: (i) prevent embarkation of persons on an international journey; (ii) prevent further onward international travel by persons who have commenced their journey; or (iii) assert control of vessels where there are reasonable grounds to believe the vessel is transporting persons contrary to international or national maritime law; where, in relation to the above, the person or persons do not have the required documentation or valid permission to enter”.

A refugee is defined by the 1951 United Nations Convention relating to the Status of Refugees ("Refugee Convention") as a person who:

Owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country.

Merely meeting the above definition does not ensure that refugee status will be granted. In fact, most persons loosely described as "refugees" are actually classified as migrants.

In order to obtain refugee status, a migrant must both apply for and receive asylum. So till that has happened their migrants, intercepted at sea because there are reasonable grounds to believe the vessel is transporting persons contrary to international or national maritime law; where, in relation to the above, the person or persons do not have the required documentation or valid permission to enter.

Its a play on the law but it changes the dynamics of the mission totally.

When migrants and their vessel are intercepted and taken aboard (if necessary), they come under the jurisdiction of the flag state. The flag state is under no obligation to grant asylum, nor is there any binding international convention that specifically covers the duties regarding migrants on ships. Generally, these migrants are disembarked at the next port of call. However, a captain has discretion that may allow him to determine an alternate destination according to the circumstances.

There was a get-together of the UNHCR in Djibouti in 2011 to discuss these very issues. One of the key points to come out of that little gathering was this: Care is required to ensure that rapid processing and / or an increase in resettlement places for asylum-seekers or refugees rescued at sea does not create pull factors or lead persons traveling irregularly by sea to create “distress” situations in order to promote rescue.

Hands up everyone who thinks that's exactly what were doing?

https://dolomitengeistblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/d3706eu0.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42481000/gif/_42481600_africa_migration416x355.gif

ancientmariner
26th April 2015, 09:28
FMP got you. Absolutely on the button.We must not be part of genetically engineering Europe.

FMP
26th April 2015, 09:39
We must not be part of genetically engineering Europe.

Sweet Jesus!! That sounds scary! Not exactly what I meant with my post, more looking at the aspects of the "return to sender" option.

na grohmiti
26th April 2015, 10:52
The crux of the issue is simple. Africa needs to be stabilised. It has been clear that since Europe ceased influencing politics in Africa, state by state they have returned to the savage spear chucking that they knew and loved.
Otherwise the only solution is to contain their political problems within the continent of Africa. Don't export it to Europe by any route.

ancientmariner
26th April 2015, 12:31
Sweet Jesus!! That sounds scary! Not exactly what I meant with my post, more looking at the aspects of the "return to sender" option.

Sorry! it was a throw away remark. O'Brien in today's Sunday Independent has an interesting article on the matter. He believes that the leak is Libya's immense coastline. He is of the opinion that Libya could be run , occupied, and thereby curtail trafficking. He believes Libya is sufficiently contained both geographically and by strong countries on its western border, to bring the problem under control. In any event the Minister must control our involvement until we are sure it won't have negative effects.

hptmurphy
27th April 2015, 14:34
In any event the Minister must control our involvement until we are sure it won't have negative effects.

Are we commiting to a EU led mission or freelancing based on the ministers whims? The key is a task force probably led by italy and Malta with the intenion of prevent unauthorized acces to the EU and Malta.

In order to reduce loss of life the intended migrants have to be prevented from getting to sea. So is it actually an entirely naval operation or should ground forces be involved to stop these boats putting to sea, and then the naval forces to prevent them getting beyond a fixed point should they get to sea.

I believe Kenny had a knee jerk reaction to public opinion to get involved what is in effect closing the stable door after the horse has gone.......and its not going to be Eithne, more like Roisin or Niamh!!!

Orion
27th April 2015, 15:30
No evidence for this but looking at the proposed Mediterranean involvement and the donation of Aoife to Malta it looks to me like nudging from European partners. Ireland is simply being expected to do more.

hptmurphy
27th April 2015, 18:11
No evidence for this but looking at the proposed Mediterranean involvement and the donation of Aoife to Malta it looks to me like nudging from European partners. Ireland is simply being expected to do more.

We don't have the resources to do more other than that which we offer.

Aoife is to have her hull surveyed in the drydock next week pending transfer,L.E. Samuel Beckett has warranty issues that would preclude her from deploment such as this, the CPVs are not suitable for an amount of reasons, the delay of James Joyce has been put back and again would probably have the same warranty issues as Beckett, leaving Roisin and Niamh as the other suitable vessels.

L.E. Eithne is not suitable in my opinion for reasons already offered and if L.E. Aisling were to be deployed, might as well book the crew tickets home by air.....

If we were full up to strenght, we could indeed offer more, but we're a little thin on the ground regarding suitable vessels.

Fine for the Italians who can nip home on the turn of a tide, we are looking at an extended unsupported deployment, with huge potential implications.

Slow down, we'll get something out there as soon as the boxes are ticked.

Rhodes
27th April 2015, 19:57
President says plan to destroy migrant boats 'monstrous'

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0427/697163-migrants/

Sparky42
27th April 2015, 20:11
We don't have the resources to do more other than that which we offer.

Aoife is to have her hull surveyed in the drydock next week pending transfer,L.E. Samuel Beckett has warranty issues that would preclude her from deploment such as this, the CPVs are not suitable for an amount of reasons, the delay of James Joyce has been put back and again would probably have the same warranty issues as Beckett, leaving Roisin and Niamh as the other suitable vessels.

L.E. Eithne is not suitable in my opinion for reasons already offered and if L.E. Aisling were to be deployed, might as well book the crew tickets home by air.....

If we were full up to strenght, we could indeed offer more, but we're a little thin on the ground regarding suitable vessels.

Fine for the Italians who can nip home on the turn of a tide, we are looking at an extended unsupported deployment, with huge potential implications.

Slow down, we'll get something out there as soon as the boxes are ticked.

Quick question, what warranty issues for Beckett would restrict her from deployment? Thought her Warranty was out to be honest?

Sparky42
27th April 2015, 20:12
President says plan to destroy migrant boats 'monstrous'

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0427/697163-migrants/

Yeah I saw that, tell us Higgins what exactly do you propose, given the population growth and instability in Africa/Middle East, that we do?

Flamingo
27th April 2015, 20:25
Yeah I saw that, tell us Higgins what exactly do you propose, given the population growth and instability in Africa/Middle East, that we do?
Well, I didn't vote for him (I always thought he was a pillock, from when he wrote in Hot Press in the 80's)...

A/TEL
27th April 2015, 21:11
We don't have the resources to do more other than that which we offer.

Aoife is to have her hull surveyed in the drydock next week pending transfer,L.E. Samuel Beckett has warranty issues that would preclude her from deploment such as this, the CPVs are not suitable for an amount of reasons, the delay of James Joyce has been put back and again would probably have the same warranty issues as Beckett, leaving Roisin and Niamh as the other suitable vessels.

L.E. Eithne is not suitable in my opinion for reasons already offered and if L.E. Aisling were to be deployed, might as well book the crew tickets home by air.....

If we were full up to strenght, we could indeed offer more, but we're a little thin on the ground regarding suitable vessels.

Fine for the Italians who can nip home on the turn of a tide, we are looking at an extended unsupported deployment, with huge potential implications.

Slow down, we'll get something out there as soon as the boxes are ticked.




Eithne well capable, only downside is speed. Aisling one of the most reliable vessels in the fleet, just ask the ERAs....

na grohmiti
27th April 2015, 21:57
Send Aisling out, Leave her there?

DeV
27th April 2015, 22:01
The Peacocks?

hptmurphy
27th April 2015, 22:50
The Peacocks?

Crew conditions would be murder....


Eithne well capable, only downside is speed.

Same issue with Aisling if speed was the issue separation of refugees to an isolation area would be a concern , getting them on board given the height of the freeboard and limited access to flight deck from afterdeck.


Quick question, what warranty issues for Beckett would restrict her from deployment?

Don't think the NS would be overly happy to send her to the med until the problems with JJ are sorted just in case they are replicated in SB

Sparky42
27th April 2015, 23:21
Don't think the NS would be overly happy to send her to the med until the problems with JJ are sorted just in case they are replicated in SB

If it is in the props surely the problem would have show itself before now, besides hasn't she already been in the graving dock for inspections before the Warranty ran out?

hptmurphy
28th April 2015, 14:38
If it is in the props surely the problem would have show itself before now, besides hasn't she already been in the graving dock for inspections before the Warranty ran out?

I don't know the specifics of the issues and reckon that the warrantys are a little more detailed than your standard parts and labour for 12 months given a ships complexity and the fact they are building a second one.

Stinger
28th April 2015, 14:56
Surely the warranty shouldn't limit the use of the vessel though

ancientmariner
28th April 2015, 15:15
Surely the warranty shouldn't limit the use of the vessel though

If you declare a guarantee fault that is limiting the full use of the ship , then it needs to be mended. Any other action weakens the guarantee. Likewise , unless your Techs are trained by equipment providers to undertake guarantee work then you are waiting for the supplier to mend the problem. If you use the ship, whether or which. you are diluting your case for who pays for what?

na grohmiti
28th April 2015, 19:32
As was discovered when the Mowags started giving trouble overseas....

Stinger
28th April 2015, 21:13
Ah!!

DeV
28th April 2015, 22:48
As was discovered when the Mowags started giving trouble overseas....

Wasn't that to do with canabulisation ?

na grohmiti
29th April 2015, 00:29
It was also to do with warranty, which Mowag walked away from once they realised there had been cannibalisation.

ancientmariner
5th May 2015, 10:02
Getting back to migrants and the Mediterranean sea. MOD announced today that LE Eithne is being deployed on task next week subject to agreed protocols with the local Naval Authorities. Obviously adaptable space matters. Pity about the monument on F.Dk. Port. Otherwise emergency land-ons available if we had an HCO/FDO.
Good to see something happen. Bon Voyage and be Good To Go.

Dogwatch
5th May 2015, 10:53
Getting back to migrants and the Mediterranean sea. MOD announced today that LE Eithne is being deployed on task next week subject to agreed protocols with the local Naval Authorities. Obviously adaptable space matters. Pity about the monument on F.Dk. Port. Otherwise emergency land-ons available if we had an HCO/FDO.
Good to see something happen. Bon Voyage and be Good To Go.

Flight deck land-on capability is gone since 2000 - let it go!
The additional RHIB will prove more valuable in being able to recover people from the water, as the flightdeck and hangar will be used to house anyone recovered, thereby negating the use of the flight deck for helo ops.

ropebag
5th May 2015, 11:11
Flight deck land-on capability is gone since 2000 - let it go!
The additional RHIB will prove more valuable in being able to recover people from the water, as the flightdeck and hangar will be used to house anyone recovered, thereby negating the use of the flight deck for helo ops.

i think the wider lesson from all this is that, in the immortal words, you're going to need a bigger boat...

tomh903
5th May 2015, 13:57
This mission is going to be very good press for the service. Anything that convinces the government to buy us our new ships is a good thing I suppose.

Dogwatch
5th May 2015, 22:19
http://navaltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/HMS-Bulwark-Ready-to-Work-in-the-Mediterranean-1024x654.jpg

Royal Navy’s HMS Bulwark and three Merlin helicopters are now ready to operate in the Mediterranean, working closely with the Italian Navy, and coordinated via Rome.

The 19,000 tonne amphibious ship will work in tandem with the surveillance helicopters to provide a wide ranging search and rescue capability.

The aircraft, from Royal Naval Air Station Culdrose, are currently stationed at the Naval Air Station Sigonella, Sicily, to be called upon when needed by the Italian coastguard. Supported by over 80 UK personnel, including air and ground crew, they have commenced their first training sortie, to familiarise themselves with the area.

From today, Tuesday, they will begin flying operations with HMS Bulwark.

http://navaltoday.com/2015/05/05/hms-bulwark-ready-to-work-in-the-mediterranean/

na grohmiti
5th May 2015, 22:48
It seems the Irish government were sorting out the same legalities as the UK before they would release the ship they announced to the effort.

Orion
5th May 2015, 23:15
No offence but stating the blindingly obvious there ...

The issues that concern the UK will be the same as those concerning Ireland .....

ropebag
5th May 2015, 23:20
No offence but stating the blindingly obvious there ...

The issues that concern the UK will be the same as those concerning Ireland .....

i must admit that the differences in tone between the governments actions and the Presidents words are - to me - very interesting. to those with a much better grasp of Irish politics than me, who'se out of touch?

Orion
5th May 2015, 23:45
i must admit that the differences in tone between the governments actions and the Presidents words are - to me - very interesting. to those with a much better grasp of Irish politics than me, who'se out of touch?

Shouldn't really

Bear in mind that the Presidents role is very similar to that of the UKs monarchs. Its purely titular with no executive power. Some titular heads of state will be more vocal than others.

ancientmariner
6th May 2015, 09:51
We need to be sure our allies on this rescue project know that EITHNE is no longer HOSTAC Class 1 deck. We often do things and don't tell JANES for info updating .

Truck Driver
6th May 2015, 10:10
http://navaltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/HMS-Bulwark-Ready-to-Work-in-the-Mediterranean-1024x654.jpg

I know it's difficult when looking at photos, but would I be right in saying that Eithne would be roughly the same size as this ship?

Tempest
6th May 2015, 10:39
I know it's difficult when looking at photos, but would I be right in saying that Eithne would be roughly the same size as this ship?

Eh, no! more then twice as long and 10 times heavier!

morpheus
6th May 2015, 10:55
I know it's difficult when looking at photos, but would I be right in saying that Eithne would be roughly the same size as this ship?

ZOMG!


ok here we go... note size of the people standing on each, for scale...

aft view of HMS BULWARK
http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1000-2/photos/1329488798-hms-bulwark-arrives-into-gdynia-port-after-baltic-exercises-_1058152.jpg

aft view of LE Eithne
http://media.central.ie/media/images/z/zzzDefenceForcesBestofYear20134_large.jpg

X-RayOne
6th May 2015, 14:13
yep..about the same size...didn't know the Royal Navy recruited midget sailors though :n:)

Bravo20
6th May 2015, 14:47
HMS Bulwark
Displacement: 19,560 tonnes
Length: 176m
Beam: 28.9m
Draught: 7.1m

LE Eithne
Displacement: 1,910 tonnes
Length: 84.8m
Beam: 12m
Draught: 4.3m

TangoSierra
6th May 2015, 23:54
"This ship is close, this one is far far away."

hptmurphy
7th May 2015, 14:09
We need to be sure our allies on this rescue project know that EITHNE is no longer HOSTAC Class 1 deck. We often do things and don't tell JANES for info updating .

Probably have some little O/Sea with a red flag standing on the flight deck waving them off should the attempt to land.

Memories of trying to fend off a VLCC with a hand portable fender the size of a football as ordered by a now serving commander, who was but a Subbie at the time!

ancientmariner
7th May 2015, 16:36
just burn off the cradle and turn the crane the other way for a temporary emergency deck.!

hptmurphy
7th May 2015, 23:38
just burn off the cradle and turn the crane the other way for a temporary emergency deck.!

I reckon the extra boat will get more work than helos, any way the Italians have enough to carry them down in those parts.

If the DF had a helo type that was deployable, it might warrant some consideration, given we haven't and the fife of the ship will have expired before anyone considers it a worthwhile exercise ...pipe dream I'm afraid.

I reckon had people the fore sight back then in the '80s to see where FP was going to end up and how it would be done, Eithne would never have been built as a HPV,

spider
8th May 2015, 01:15
Well lives saved which wouldn't have been otherwise...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32626560

Whatever Navies are involved in this they are doing important work and deserve our support...

The politicians who binned Mare Nostrum on the other hand...UK included...short-sighted fcukwittery imvvho

ancientmariner
8th May 2015, 15:31
I reckon the extra boat will get more work than helos, any way the Italians have enough to carry them down in those parts.

If the DF had a helo type that was deployable, it might warrant some consideration, given we haven't and the fife of the ship will have expired before anyone considers it a worthwhile exercise ...pipe dream I'm afraid.

I reckon had people the fore sight back then in the '80s to see where FP was going to end up and how it would be done, Eithne would never have been built as a HPV,

The concept of Eithne was an attempt to move the Navy forward to embrace modern technology in electronics, gunnery, and using Helicopters to extend capability at sea. It was initally proposed from the bottom up that the Navy would do it's own flying following British, and French training. Others took over the air capability question and demanded the vessel be brought to the highest NATO class 1 level for a single deck ship. After a period of integration , a rapid phase of attrition set in with helicopters dispersed by disposal to an aircraft refurbish-er who sold them on to the Government of Chile. Thereafter the ships capabilities were redacted in favor of other conveniences. Nothing much wrong with the ship but she will always be subject to decisions of those tasked to take the Navy forward.

hptmurphy
8th May 2015, 19:59
The concept of Eithne was an attempt to move the Navy forward to embrace modern technology in electronics, gunnery, and using Helicopters to extend capability at sea. It was initally proposed from the bottom up that the Navy would do it's own flying following British, and French training. Others took over the air capability question and demanded the vessel be brought to the highest NATO class 1 level for a single deck ship. After a period of integration , a rapid phase of attrition set in with helicopters dispersed by disposal to an aircraft refurbish-er who sold them on to the Government of Chile. Thereafter the ships capabilities were redacted in favor of other conveniences. Nothing much wrong with the ship but she will always be subject to decisions of those tasked to take the Navy forward.

And did so gallantly except by choosing the wrong machine and then playing empires the AC were a primary player in the failure of the project. If the capabilty of the machine selected had been greater,the originally intention for eight machines followed and ownership of two of these passed over to the NS it would have been a good outcome, sewing the seeds for a Naval Aviation foundation into the future.

Had the present been seen in the past and where technology evolved to the requirement for a ship based helo specifically for Fishery Protection would have been null and void given how much it cost. PWH tagged its as not being value for money and even when it did become operational it wasn't cost effective.

Jetjock
8th May 2015, 22:12
Had the present been seen in the past and where technology evolved to the requirement for a ship based helo specifically for Fishery Protection would have been null and void given how much it cost. PWH tagged its as not being value for money and even when it did become operational it wasn't cost effective.

But the point he´s making Murph and I´m inclined to agree, is that Eithne as a concept had ambitions beyond the fisheries patrol role. It was designed and built as a vessel with real military potential (helo, hull mounted sonar, FCS, Air search radar etc) rather than the constabulary orientated P20 Class and also to a lesser extent the P50/60s. The subsequent shift in focus back to a fisheries patrol coast guard misson set whether driven by Govt, the Dept or internally in the NS is equally to blame as the IAC are for the lack of a helo on deck today. (As indeed is the lack of investment)

That same shift in focus and lack of ambition beyond FP, whether political or otherwise is still evident today in the design of the P60 OPV class. They perform their constabulary role in the Irish EEZ to an extremely high degree of efficciency. But they have very limited potential to expand beyond that role and to act independently away from CASA top cover(and Im not talking about flag waving cruises). More´s the pity the ambitions of the 80´s were not expanded on in that.

Personally I would have to say that I think that it´s wrong to state that a properly equipped capable NS owned helicopter would be anything short of an asset on the flight of LE Eithne, regardless of supposed limitations of operating it from an 85m vessel. To argue otherwise is in my opinion an attempt to justify the unjustifiable situation of having a RHIB and crane permanently occupying the flight deck of a Naval ship.

ancientmariner
8th May 2015, 23:22
Not to labour the point too much. Going forward with the Naval fleet replacement program ,the personnel involved in planning must have ambitions beyond Fishery Protection. We must add to the Defence capabilities also, with suitable modern weapons and associated technologies. It is a mistake to curtail potential strengths and a certain amount of self belief must inform future planning and role development

na grohmiti
8th May 2015, 23:35
Lets be fair here. At the time it was built, it was the smallest possible ship you could build that could safely land a heli. 75m at the waterline, the experts at NEVESBU said.
The concept itself was good. Extend the area the ship can patrol effectively by extending its over the horizon reach.

What went wrong?

Design: Helipad had a "well" aft, which was completely unnecessary, and in the unlikely event of an aircraft fire, would add to the risk of the fire getting caught astern. Was Sea Rider fuel stored here too? You could have extended the flight deck to the stern and potentially increased the size of aircraft that could operate here. Why did we make the helideck a few metres shorter than it needed to be? Even having the solid hangar was unnecessary. Given the amount of time it was expected that the heli would stay aboard, a telescopic hangar as used on the Knox and Bear class would have been more efficient. Indeed the fitout of the hangar and the flight crew accom was done based on the advice of the Air Corps, who had no experience whatsoever of heli-ops at sea. They got a fully kitted out workshop that they would never use, nor be able to use, even if they wanted to. The collapsible railings were also cumbersome, even dangerous for crew to drop.

Concept: The ship went from being a force multiplier for the defence forces, to being a political football. Initially 2 ships of type were planned. Then its reason for existence was to keep Verolme dockyard open. The Dockyard did all sort of messing about which left us with a ship that was behind schedule and over budget by about 200%. Lots of equipment was fitted incorrectly, some fittings deliberately the wrong way about, to extend the duration the workforce would get to complete the ship (could be the same happening in appledore?). In the middle of the worst recession the country had seen since the foundation of the state, the 2nd ship was not ordered. This reduced the demonstration of the concept. If 2 identical HPVs were available for AC to train on, then maybe more time could have been spent getting crews familiar both in the NS and the AC. But one ship can't stay at sea all year round.

Helicopter: Wrong from the start. Our neighbours on all sides were using the Lynx.(Even France) It is, and was a Naval Helicopter, i.e it is a flying naval weapon or sensor. Initial renderings of the HPV had a Lynx on deck. Round the same time the Army were jumping in and out of a leased Puma. It was ideal for what they needed it for i.e SAR and Moving troops about. At this time we had no 24 hour SAR Heli, and the Alouettes had limited range over water. Whats that got to do with the HPV I hear you ask? Well someone saw Aerospatiale, who had provided the AC with many happy years (and trips to Marseilles) flying with the Alouette and Gazelle, had a new 2 engined Helicopter to replace the A3 in service. It would also have a Naval version, armed with Missiles, and the USCG would be developing their own version with American built parts. They were using theirs for Short range SAR, and potentially operate them from the back of their HPV size cutters. The French were also offering the Dauphin as an army Helicopter... in the anti tank role... hey that ticks all the boxes right? Instead of buying 2 different types that are suited for purpose, why not go for a Prototype compromise? Sure it has never flown from a ship before, we can help the French with that, they can test it on ours! So it doesn't carry as many troops as a Puma or go as far, but its much better than an alouette, and if we put this radar in, we can fly it by night too! Ok so nobody else is using that radar either but what can go wrong?
Oh, you want to use it for VIP transport too, so the poor citizen can see how well its great leader is respected when he is ferried to public events in an aircraft that should be doing SAR now?
Oh and you want to base one of the 5 you bought on the west coast, away from the others, and the technicians?
And you want to load it with so much kit that it cannot take off with a full fuel load and a full crew? That's gonna reduce the range somewhat! Oh and you won't let the pilots use the autoland because you don't trust it so instead they have to do their best with blind approaches in fog, that would lead to inevitable tragic results?
And you are going to see it replaced in the SAR role with an aircraft that was being used by the UK for the SAR job before the Dauphin entered service?
etc

Its still a fine ship though. It was designed primarily as a warship. It has a warships ops room. It had some equipment that warships have as a matter of routine. (since removed). The real problem was we should have got a second ship. In our short naval history, our first of class has been a learning experience, and the 2nd of class has been an improvement on the 1st. Emer was an improvement on Deirdre. (Aoife was an improvement again on Emer) Niamh was an improvement on Roisin. Even today, the issues with Beckett are being ironed out on Joyce before it enters service.
But it was the Last Irish Built ship, and always will be. It was the best we could do.

One wonders would it be better if we had not decided to go it alone and build it in a country experienced in building ships of this type, assisted in design by those who had a long history of operating helicopters from small ships in atlantic conditions.

FMP
9th May 2015, 05:40
One wonders would it be better if we had not decided to go it alone and build it in a country experienced in building ships of this type, assisted in design by those who had a long history of operating helicopters from small ships in atlantic conditions.

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, and gone for the Lynx effect.

ancientmariner
9th May 2015, 11:14
Some of what Grohmiti says may be near some of the truth. The ordering of EITHNE to the handover on the day the Dockyard shut down was April 1982 to first week in November 1984. There was no sense of impinging delay, rather that one side of Government pressure would see the Yard shut before the ship was fully completed. Two to three years for such a vessel is not extraordinary.
The flight deck of above naval strength was designed principally for the helicopter of Aircorps choice, THE Dauphin 2. The hanger evolved around Aircorps requirements of a foam room to fully flood the hangar and an X/Y overhead crane system for engine change and blade removal-so fixed it was. The flight deck had a fully fire insulated drainage system under the Harpoon grid on a deck with upstands for blanket foaming.
The flight deck maybe could have been extended aft, at some cost to rearrange maintenance of patrol trim and draft.
In subsequent French Navy evaluations the deck environment was classified as beyond expectations. Their pilots eventually put the purchased Dauphin on board both Day and Night in all directions including facing aft in a tail wind. The vessel was fitted with day/night recovery aids including transponder from MEL.

The cost around 26m including bits and pieces seemed at the time to be as expected. The only memory of misfitting is I,m afraid zero. Some alterations were made to suit operational convenience such as changing door swing or heights of access platforms to equipments.

To be honest there was not a hope in hell that inter-service priorities would be shelved in order to let the project function. What happened was chastening and unexpected and not because the ship was wrong. With ships welding and burning can make adjustments but minds can be intransigent.

hptmurphy
9th May 2015, 17:10
Was Sea Rider fuel stored here too?

Ironically no,


Personally I would have to say that I think that it´s wrong to state that a properly equipped capable NS owned helicopter would be anything short of an asset on the flight of LE Eithne, regardless of supposed limitations of operating it from an 85m vessel. To argue otherwise is in my opinion an attempt to justify the unjustifiable situation of having a RHIB and crane permanently occupying the flight deck of a Naval ship.

It would be if we had a helo capable of operating from it for the past 20 years, dues to the lack of foresight with other branches of the DF, this did not prove to be the case.


Lots of equipment was fitted incorrectly, some fittings deliberately the wrong way about, to extend the duration the workforce would get to complete the ship (

Cue the fresh water piping which was stainless steel instead of copper and had to be replaced by mid 1986, the searider cradles mounted back wards, resulting in the boats needing to be turned under way, and the cranes them selves being very prone to corrosion so much so the one mounted on the foc'sle needing removing in the first year alone, the flight deck guard rails make from box iron as opposed to aluminium....used to terrify me when lowering them, getting them back up a nightmare.

But she was / is a great ship. I have some fantastic memories from my time spent living in her.That time also gave me an oppertunity to see her shortfalls,

A Mk 2 would have been perfection!


To be honest there was not a hope in hell that inter-service priorities would be shelved in order to let the project function. What happened was chastening and unexpected and not because the ship was wrong. With ships welding and burning can make adjustments but minds can be intransigent.

This being the most enlightened opinion on the issue which I agree with 100 %

Everything else is history or conjecture.

sofa
10th May 2015, 01:10
Older oulfellers (welders in particular) in the yard did there damdest by acting the boll$%k, to make sure the yard did not survive because they wanted redundency.

ancientmariner
10th May 2015, 11:06
Cue the water system below the watertight deck, it was Galvanized steel, whereas the Navy side recommended copper. The difference at the time was copper was 8000 punts dearer. When the WHB's ran brown tinged water, we realised the cause ,as pipework in the PO's mess had filled with internal corrosion. Over a period all that pipework was replaced at an eyewatering cost in time and inconvenience . Not sure but it was near twenty times the original cost. These things happen like when the Aircon came into maximum use, it rained in the accommodation, as all the associated pipework was unlagged. Best Foxford blankets were cut up in bandages and by the time they reached Bermuda things were back to normal. All of this is run of the mill especially when DOD are following the least cost principle.

hptmurphy
10th May 2015, 17:59
Cue the water system below the watertight deck, it was Galvanized steel, whereas the Navy side recommended copper. The difference at the time was copper was 8000 punts dearer. When the WHB's ran brown tinged water, we realised the cause ,as pipework in the PO's mess had filled with internal corrosion. Over a period all that pipework was replaced at an eyewatering cost in time and inconvenience . Not sure but it was near twenty times the original cost. These things happen like when the Aircon came into maximum use, it rained in the accommodation, as all the associated pipework was unlagged. Best Foxford blankets were cut up in bandages and by the time they reached Bermuda things were back to normal. All of this is run of the mill especially when DOD are following the least cost principle.

All these issues give all the more reasons for newer ships not to be delivered until they are inch perfect. Of course there was no recourse to the builders, hence the huge repair cost.

Always bugged me given the small boat experience the NS had , how the hell the problems with the handling of the seariders came about because of the cradles being reversed. Would have been such an easy fix but wasn't rectified until early in 1987.

Laners
10th May 2015, 18:34
In fairness it was a bit much for the air con to work properly with hatches and port holes open , we being Irish the concept of air con was all new . Kind of like driving you car with the windows open and the air con on .

Bravo20
11th May 2015, 13:06
We need to be sure our allies on this rescue project know that EITHNE is no longer HOSTAC Class 1 deck. We often do things and don't tell JANES for info updating .

If you look at the current pictures of the Eithne you will see a circle with an X through it, this is to let aircraft know you cannot land there. Contrast those pictures to an earlier one. https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9FwwaGoHEojkzXNpuTrCIsl-Lf7WlAZpzcvhxT9vupyZO1jOyKg

hptmurphy
11th May 2015, 15:34
Yeah fine, use my photo...I don't mind....:n:)https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T_jg8wY0RRQ/TWWEhWFOL_I/AAAAAAAAMBs/yBp4nanLIoQ/s896/for%2520the%2520Birds%2520029.jpg

Bravo20
11th May 2015, 17:08
Blame Google, it was freely available.

tomh903
11th May 2015, 17:50
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32690312

If anyone needs reminding of how dangerous the area is that we are deploying to, read about the Turkish freighter which was attacked today by artillery and jets belonging to one of the warlords who now rule Libya.

pym
11th May 2015, 18:36
Well, I hope Eithne's air search radar is operational. Would also be nice to have Link-11 on such a deployment.

Spend the next couple of weeks practicing anti-surface & anti-aircraft gunnery, and the less warry humanitarian stuff too.

ancientmariner
11th May 2015, 19:00
Sorry it's in room 101. That is the DA05 is u/s.

na grohmiti
11th May 2015, 20:08
Can it be fixed is the obvious question. I know the bottom end of it was past its sell by date long ago (i.e the crt screen in the ops room). Its something that could/should be kept up to date as a matter of routine, if purely for security at home. In the Past Eithne acted as point defence during the visit of various POTUS.

ancientmariner
11th May 2015, 22:35
Can it be fixed is the obvious question. I know the bottom end of it was past its sell by date long ago (i.e the crt screen in the ops room). Its something that could/should be kept up to date as a matter of routine, if purely for security at home. In the Past Eithne acted as point defence during the visit of various POTUS.

Just call in Signaal-Phillips and have the system resurrected. No system or ship should be diminished in it's potential on the grounds of expediency. It should never have happened and it's embarrassing given the effort to put the ops end of Eithne together.

Jetjock
11th May 2015, 23:07
And interestingly enough Thales have some suggestions:

http://www.thales7seas.com/html_2014/product205.html

morpheus
12th May 2015, 10:33
whan did the DAO5 become U/S? trying to find recent photos but most seem to still have the dish in place on the mast...
Could they embark an RBS 70 team or possibly a giraffe with a bofors in the hangar that could be rolled out? not sure how effective that would be though. this is a joke.

ancientmariner
12th May 2015, 11:08
The Antenna is there for appearance. A very balanced view of where we should be attempting to go with "Patrol ships" is an article THE PATROL SHIP MYTH in THINK DEFENCE. Basically around our coast, on home duties, our installed packages of surveillance and weapons meets a standard. However if we put ships into a survivability ,surprise attack environment , then we are not Good to Go. We need early detection, tracking, and engagement of multi-targets.

GoneToTheCanner
12th May 2015, 11:20
....the DoD will trot out the usual line that the DF has been provided with the equipment required to do it's job,etc,etc...

DeV
12th May 2015, 11:37
And in fairness they are, the NS aren't tasked for "hot" environments

Jetjock
12th May 2015, 11:47
whan did the DAO5 become U/S? trying to find recent photos but most seem to still have the dish in place on the mast...
Could they embark an RBS 70 team or possibly a giraffe with a bofors in the hangar that could be rolled out? not sure how effective that would be though. this is a joke.

The Aussies have deployed RBS 70 on navy ships in the past. It is however purely cosmetic. The mount is unstabilised and the RBS70 requires the operator to keep the crosshairs on the target all the way to impact. A tricky enough proposition on Terra Firma. Practically impossible from a rolling ship.
For a cheap anti air/missile capability try this(as posted in the other thread):
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/simbad-rc_datasheet-1424429844.pdf

Complete the relatively simple DA05 life extension modifications as posted above and you have a minimal capability. This is a good time for the NS to be frank on the threat environment and to achieve some increase in defensive capability under an Urgent Operational Requirement equivalent arrangement. One need only point to the 2006 missle attack on INS Hanit for reference on what happens to a naval vessel left unprotected in an asymmetrical threat environment.

ropebag
12th May 2015, 12:01
And in fairness they are, the NS aren't tasked for "hot" environments

the crew of the tanker(?) that got shelled by land artillery and bombed by air attack off the coast of Libya in the last week might not agree with the DOD's definition of the Med being 'not hot'...

the proposed anti-piracy job in the Indian Ocean that was on until a month ago would not have been 'fisheries protection with brown people', its calmed down a lot, but would not have risk free.

expat01
12th May 2015, 12:40
Bottom line, if the state intends to deploy vessels to environments that contain a threat greater than small arms fire, they should provide the proper defensive measures.

ancientmariner
12th May 2015, 17:44
Bottom line, if the state intends to deploy vessels to environments that contain a threat greater than small arms fire, they should provide the proper defensive measures.

The rule henceforth should be that no front-line systems should be prematurely struck down without first attempting to upgrade it. The Thales package with solid state transmitter and tracking add-ons would be useful. There is a culture within PDF of binning equipment that creates Monday morning blues on the Tech/Op front.

hptmurphy
12th May 2015, 18:19
Bottom line, if the state intends to deploy vessels to environments that contain a threat greater than small arms fire, they should provide the proper defensive measures.

You might have noticed that Iceland has the FP / Coastguard Vessel Tyr deployed in the Med on the Frontex OP at the moment, slightly bigger than an OPV, armed with 40mm bofors.

Doesn't seem to matter when it comes to rescuing people, after all rescue is what the thread is about!

pym
12th May 2015, 18:22
Is it as simple as Monday morning blues, or are scarce resources being entirely consumed with keeping the day to day operations going?

DeV
12th May 2015, 19:13
Will an UOR be delivered by Friday?

Force protection don't go anywhere near Libyian territorial limit!

Remember the NS has only deployed operational "hot" zones to Lebanon and Liberia in the past but only for a few days

Rhodes
12th May 2015, 19:45
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Diplomatic requirements are being finalised with Italy and it is expected the LÉ Eithne will sail to the Mediterranean on Saturday</p>&mdash; RTÉ News (@rtenews) <a href="https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/598179388191027200">May 12, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

na grohmiti
12th May 2015, 19:49
Is it as simple as Monday morning blues, or are scarce resources being entirely consumed with keeping the day to day operations going?

No. It is Monday morning blues. There are elements within the DF that want their job to be as easy as possible. If that means taking maint heavy but essential equipment out of service then so be it. Sad thing is most behave this way so they can be seen to operate more efficiently themselves when going for their next promotion: "Look how much money I saved the state".

I'll spare the details to avoid the headlines.

Rhodes
12th May 2015, 22:19
LE Eithne expected to depart for Mediterranean on Saturday


The LÉ Eithne is expected to travel to the Mediterranean on Saturday to aid in the rescue of migrants.

Diplomatic requirements are being finalised with Italy and the ship should depart from Haulbowline off the Co Cork coast with a crew of 65.

Minister for Defence Simon Coveney said that the LÉ Eithne would be deployed for two months and is then expected to be replaced by another Irish ship.

He said the Irish naval involvement would last until September as the summer months are the busiest in terms of migrants seeking asylum.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0512/700429-news-in-brief/

Rhodes
12th May 2015, 22:23
Minister for Defence, Mr. Simon Coveney, T.D., secures Government approval for the Deployment of a Naval Vessel to Assist in the Humanitarian Crisis in the Mediterranean

http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/Release+ID/7F26F4F5D140417380257E4300660E14?OpenDocument

na grohmiti
12th May 2015, 22:28
This is a game changer for the Naval Service.

ODIN
12th May 2015, 22:37
Great for the NS, no doubt about it. Pity she won't be combating people smugglers and sending them back to North Africa.

hptmurphy
12th May 2015, 23:13
The time span would suggest that if we are to maintain a constant presence for 6 months, we will need to rotate vessels through the role.

Option 'b' would be to base the vessel in Italy and rotate the crew as required.

thoughts?

Sparky42
12th May 2015, 23:20
The time span would suggest that if we are to maintain a constant presence for 6 months, we will need to rotate vessels through the role.

Option 'b' would be to base the vessel in Italy and rotate the crew as required.

thoughts?

From the comments on the 9 o'clock news Eithne will be replaced in 2 months.

ancientmariner
13th May 2015, 10:02
The time span would suggest that if we are to maintain a constant presence for 6 months, we will need to rotate vessels through the role.

Option 'b' would be to base the vessel in Italy and rotate the crew as required.

thoughts?
On paper that's possible. However a particular ship's technical gremlins can rarely be passed on seamlessly. Better to have a ship and crew arrive on scene fully up to speed with their own vessel and it's equipment. I hope EITHNE can "talk" to allied vessels without using marine bands etc..Good Trip Eithne.

ropebag
13th May 2015, 10:20
...I hope EITHNE can "talk" to allied vessels without using marine bands etc..Good Trip Eithne.

possibly why Aisling(?) was in Portsmouth the other week - picking up the witchcraft that lets these devils talk to each other?

Turkey
13th May 2015, 12:59
Great for the NS, no doubt about it. Pity she won't be combating people smugglers and sending them to bottom of the sea

Fixed that for ya. :-D

hptmurphy
13th May 2015, 15:26
From the comments on the 9 o'clock news Eithne will be replaced in 2 months.

Yeah copped that after I had posted, thanks. 2 months is realistic for crew welfare.

Laners
13th May 2015, 16:01
Yeah copped that after I had posted, thanks. 2 months is realistic for crew welfare.

Plus the canteen will have run out of Tayto and Mars bars by then .

Orion
13th May 2015, 16:17
HMS Bulwark in the med

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32723573

Steamy Window
13th May 2015, 16:25
This is a game changer for the Naval Service.

For a nautical no- hoper like me, can you explain why this is? Is it operating in an unknown area for a long period of time? Doing Air India- style recoveries on a prolonged basis (hopefully not)?Working with other navies? Tagging on lots more kit that goes "bang"?

ODIN
13th May 2015, 16:52
For a nautical no- hoper like me, can you explain why this is? Is it operating in an unknown area for a long period of time? Doing Air India- style recoveries on a prolonged basis (hopefully not)?Working with other navies? Tagging on lots more kit that goes "bang"?

My thoughts would be that it is the fist time that Ireland has deployed a vessel as part of an international operation. This is for the NS what the Congo was to the Army.

DeV
13th May 2015, 17:30
It is the first every non-diplomatic foreign deployment for the NS (where the duration in the operational area is more than a few days)

pym
13th May 2015, 18:34
On paper that's possible. However a particular ship's technical gremlins can rarely be passed on seamlessly. Better to have a ship and crew arrive on scene fully up to speed with their own vessel and it's equipment. I hope EITHNE can "talk" to allied vessels without using marine bands etc..Good Trip Eithne.

All the NS vessels are equipped for tactical comms and have modern secure mil sets that would be common to NATO forces - so this is where participation in multinational training exs like Combined Endeavour etc. could really bear fruit and an argument for participation in Joint Warrior if comms prove to be a weak point.

Eithne getting an expanded radar picture via an Italian frigate or French MPA over a secure data link would be an obvious feature to explore.

na grohmiti
13th May 2015, 19:20
For a nautical no- hoper like me, can you explain why this is? Is it operating in an unknown area for a long period of time? Doing Air India- style recoveries on a prolonged basis (hopefully not)?Working with other navies? Tagging on lots more kit that goes "bang"?

It is an overseas operation, at the Behest of the EU, where our naval vessel and its crew will operate with other Naval and Coast Guard forces. It is more of a frontier patrol operation than a Rescue operation, though rescues will be part and parcel of it. The small mods to Eithne in advance of the operation tell a multitude.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8866/17544428456_c8c2057764_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/sJkMkN)LÉ EITHNE P31 (https://flic.kr/p/sJkMkN)
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8740/17570728371_87fdeb29e6_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/sLEzoB)LÉ EITHNE P31 (https://flic.kr/p/sLEzoB) by Irish Defence Forces (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dfmagazine/), on Flickr

Also, for the Info of ancient mariner, as I expected, the cradle for the RIB is fully mobile, and attached to the deck using the standard container anchorages which were added to the deck in 2006 or thereabouts. The helideck now has proper anchorages for up to 6 TEU and a number of vehicles, if required. the cradle can be removed in seconds.

DeV
13th May 2015, 21:01
Sorry big thumb.

As far as the DF is considered it is a SAR mission

ancientmariner
14th May 2015, 09:42
Sorry big thumb.

As far as the DF is considered it is a SAR mission

Interesting picture from NS with what appears to be 7x20 person inflatable liferafts and a number of rigid floatation units from harbour ferries. The procedure on the "ground" seems to be to supply the migrants with lifejackets before taking them onto LCP's , in the case of the Brits, and then taking them on board the mother ship. I presume the liferafts are SOLAS compliance ,once you have extra persons on board ,or do they have another role?
Over 2 months a large supply of lifejackets would be needed even if you got most of them back at disembarkation.

Galloglass
14th May 2015, 12:13
Hasn't the NS taken part in EEZ protection duties with Canada/ US previously in the Western Atlantic?

hptmurphy
14th May 2015, 12:34
Hasn't the NS taken part in EEZ protection duties with Canada/ US previously in the Western Atlantic?

Yes

Rhodes
16th May 2015, 00:18
Irish flagship LE ‘Eithne’ to provide aid in Mediterranean

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-flagship-le-eithne-to-provide-aid-in-mediterranean-1.2214586

na grohmiti
16th May 2015, 11:17
<blockquoteclass="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Taoiseach meets crew of LE Eithnebefore being deployed to the Mediterranean <a href="https://twitter.com/Corks96FM">@Corks96FM</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/C103Cork">@C103Cork</a> <a href="http://t.co/r6amsFJmtZ">pic.twitter.com/r6amsFJmtZ</a></p>&mdash; Fiona Donnelly (@FionaDonnelly96) <a href="https://twitter.com/FionaDonnelly96/status/599478796224438272">May 16, 2015</a></blockquote> <script asyncsrc="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquoteclass="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/defenceforces">@defenceforces</a> flagship LE Eithnesets sail from <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Haulbowline?src=hash">#Haulbowline</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cork?src=hash">#Cork</a> on her 10-week humanitarian mission to the Med <a href="http://t.co/Khb1B7VqTz">pic.twitter.com/Khb1B7VqTz</a></p>&mdash; EoinEnglish (@EoinBearla) <a href="https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/599493903759343616">May 16, 2015</a></blockquote> <script asyncsrc="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquoteclass="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">LE Eithnesalutes the Taoiseach as she sails from <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Haulbowline?src=hash">#Haulbowline</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cork?src=hash">#Cork</a> <a href="http://t.co/EVfpVLAgbw">pic.twitter.com/EVfpVLAgbw</a></p>&mdash; EoinEnglish (@EoinBearla) <a href="https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/599497221608972288">May 16, 2015</a></blockquote> <script asyncsrc="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Eithne just passing Roches point.

Rhodes
16th May 2015, 17:34
Eithne leaves Cork harbour for the Mediterranean

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.rte.ie/bosco/components/player/iframe.html?clipid=20781219&thumbnail=000a9709&autostart=false" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

expat01
18th May 2015, 10:44
One assumes she will not take part in the operation to destroy smuggler vessels...

hptmurphy
18th May 2015, 11:13
One assumes she will not take part in the operation to destroy smuggler vessels...

Not the mandate

expat01
18th May 2015, 12:11
Good. Does that mean she"ll stay out of Libyan waters? Hard from smugglers with guns to tell one grey vessel from another and all that.

Laners
18th May 2015, 14:16
Well it looks like they should be enjoying some sunshine about now , AIS showing them just north Of Lisbon .

Laners
18th May 2015, 19:25
No liberty in Lisbon tonight , drove right past it .

na grohmiti
19th May 2015, 19:35
In the last Hour L.E. Eithne entered the Mediterranean.

Brian McGrath
19th May 2015, 20:43
In the last Hour L.E. Eithne entered the Mediterranean.

Is this Eithnes first time in the Mediterranean

Laners
19th May 2015, 20:44
Is this Eithnes first time in the Mediterranean

I just logged on to ask the same question .

hptmurphy
19th May 2015, 21:50
Sure is,

na grohmiti
19th May 2015, 21:54
She was the first ship in the USA, the first in the South Atlantic, but its taken till now to find the med!

Dogwatch
19th May 2015, 22:49
She was the first ship in the USA, the first in the South Atlantic, but its taken till now to find the med!

The Med was the preserve of the OPVs throughout the 1990's, with EMER, AOIFE & AISLING doing all the Leb Resupply Missions. LPVs then got there with Asian deployment (transit through) & normal foreign deployments (ROISIN in 2006 was the last, I think).

A/TEL
19th May 2015, 23:54
The Med was the preserve of the OPVs throughout the 1990's, with EMER, AOIFE & AISLING doing all the Leb Resupply Missions. LPVs then got there with Asian deployment (transit through) & normal foreign deployments (ROISIN in 2006 was the last, I think).



Aoife - Barcelona 2006

Aoife - Malaga, Crete, Malta 2007

Emer - Malta, Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania 2008

na grohmiti
20th May 2015, 00:21
Which one had to turn back because of improper permissions/paperwork?

sofa
20th May 2015, 00:48
Turkey if I remember.

danno
21st May 2015, 23:18
Any sign of her om ais today?

tomh903
21st May 2015, 23:30
Last position on marine traffic was received yesterday evening and was coming up to Algiers.

Laners
21st May 2015, 23:35
While fully recognizing that this site is an Irish Military online site and it is good to see an Irish Naval Service vessel operating in the Mediterranean it should not be forgotten that Irish ships have shown the flag and have continually traded in this area.

Well not since Irish Shipping , and have never seen Arklow Shipping in the Med .

A/TEL
21st May 2015, 23:59
Which one had to turn back because of improper permissions/paperwork?

Aoife - No clearance to transit the Bosphorous Straits

na grohmiti
22nd May 2015, 00:17
The people who support the Kinsale field (Mainport) have ships based in the Caspian sea. Mainport Oak is currently in Turkey.

Laners
22nd May 2015, 19:35
Would that be the Dutch flagged or Irish flagged vessels .

Brian McGrath
22nd May 2015, 19:38
Back on AIS again and currently off the Coast of Tunisia, they made great progress

na grohmiti
22nd May 2015, 21:36
Would that be the Dutch flagged or Irish flagged vessels .

I worked on an Irish Flagged vessel once. Me and the flag were the only Irish thing about it.

ODIN
22nd May 2015, 22:36
I worked on an Irish Flagged vessel once. Me and the flag were the only Irish thing about it.

And the flag was probably made in China. Couldn't resist

Laners
22nd May 2015, 22:46
Seeing that this is Eithne's first visit to the Med can anyone name the first Officer of the day when the ship berthed at Haulbowline after leaving Verlome .

ancientmariner
23rd May 2015, 17:30
Seeing that this is Eithne's first visit to the Med can anyone name the first Officer of the day when the ship berthed at Haulbowline after leaving Verlome .

Just had a nice week driving a boat on the Shannon. The OOD on 8th November 1984 had to be either Liam or Pearse her current Captain. I rather think it might have been POD. I don't think the CPO/OOD was in yet. By the way she was towed down after an emergency shut down silenced her MEs.

na grohmiti
23rd May 2015, 19:19
It looks like Eithne's AIS is now switched off as she has arrived off Lampadusa and so becomes operationally effective.

Not Necessarily. There are quite a few AIS Blackspots in the Med. Also, marinetraffic has been on the blink for the last few days.

Laners
23rd May 2015, 19:52
Just had a nice week driving a boat on the Shannon. The OOD on 8th November 1984 had to be either Liam or Pearse her current Captain. I rather think it might have been POD. I don't think the CPO/OOD was in yet. By the way she was towed down after an emergency shut down silenced her MEs.

Sub lt Pearse O, Donnell it was, her present commander , and it was roast beef for dinner that night .

moggy
23rd May 2015, 21:11
That's what you called it

TE=Laners;427555]Sub lt Pearse O, Donnell it was, her present commander , and it was roast beef for dinner that night .[/QUOTE]

Laners
23rd May 2015, 21:31
That's what you called it

TE=Laners;427555]Sub lt Pearse O, Donnell it was, her present commander , and it was roast beef for dinner that night .[/QUOTE]

And you believed me .

hptmurphy
24th May 2015, 01:13
That's what you called it

TE=Laners;427555]Sub lt Pearse O, Donnell it was, her present commander , and it was roast beef for dinner that night .[/QUOTE]

And you ate it!!!!

Laners
24th May 2015, 07:03
The horse meat scandal goes back at lot longer than you think .

moggy
24th May 2015, 11:47
Lancers roast beef ' a la tow.' Anyway back to the main topic eithne has been off ais and i think its turned off for ops reasons

na grohmiti
24th May 2015, 12:21
Yup, looks that way now. There is always the danger that the traffickers will make a bee-line for the rescue vessels, and dump their human cargo over the side, knowing they will have to be rescued.

The Italians have been seeing this for a while.

Sparky42
28th May 2015, 18:49
First catch of the patrol today.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/le-eithne-rescues-at-least-88-migrants-off-libya-coast-31261371.html

Kicker
28th May 2015, 20:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQfPIlo6jes

Kicker
28th May 2015, 20:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHqGybLF160

Sparky42
28th May 2015, 20:17
Breaking news is no reporting that it was up to 200 saved.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-naval-flagship-rescues-more-than-200-migrants-679256.html

Either way, good job and hopefully it will be a good learning experience for the navy to work with all the other navies in this.

tomh903
28th May 2015, 20:19
Well done to the crew but its not a good feeling looking at those pictures and realising that the smiling occupants of those crammed boats will soon be heading our way thanks to the EU and we have absolutely no idea what they were doing/have done back in their home country.

TangoSierra
28th May 2015, 20:31
There's a KKK joke somewhere in those photos!

Relax folks - it's called dark humour before anyone behind a keyboard gets upset. Well done to all involved in the op

sofa
28th May 2015, 21:19
Well done to the crew but its not a good feeling looking at those pictures and realising that the smiling occupants of those crammed boats will soon be heading our way thanks to the EU and we have absolutely no idea what they were doing/have done back in their home country.

yep

there even worse then the Irish for infesting other peoples county's

Sparky42
28th May 2015, 21:22
yep

there even worse then the Irish for infesting other peoples county's

I know, all those illegals in the states that we keep demanding get a free pass into the states...

hptmurphy
29th May 2015, 01:13
I see people having to climb jumping ladders.......fcuking madness,

Laners
29th May 2015, 07:07
I see people having to climb jumping ladders.......fcuking madness,

How about a cargo net and just dump them all into it .

Rhodes
29th May 2015, 11:31
Just seen on Facebook that another 300 taken were on board early this morning and 100 more in the last hour.

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7978&d=1432891450

Orion
29th May 2015, 12:17
Any idea how many people can be safely accommodated before the need to offload?

Sparky42
29th May 2015, 12:30
Any idea how many people can be safely accommodated before the need to offload?

Think they are being transferred to Bulwark before that becomes an issue.

Brian McGrath
29th May 2015, 12:35
Some good video of another group picked up by HMS Bulwark, they transferred them into landing craft

http://news.sky.com/story/1492460/navy-saves-young-migrants-crammed-into-boat

Sparky42
29th May 2015, 13:16
I see people having to climb jumping ladders.......fcuking madness,

Looks like they agree the pictures on rte of last nights operations to me suggest steps were being used this time rather that the ladders. She's picked up what another 400 overnight?

Laners
29th May 2015, 17:53
Really!!! you should remember that this a humanitarian mission. Some respect please. If you were in their situation would you liked to be dumped?

Some people just don't see the funny side of things .

The real Jack
30th May 2015, 03:33
Please define what you consider "funny".

http://www.maxvelocitytactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Hurt-Feelings-Report.jpg

Laners
30th May 2015, 13:42
Was Emer the last to show the flag there in 82 and Eithne the first since then ? .

A/TEL
31st May 2015, 02:10
Pics of landing of personnel by P31 in Palermo


http://www.demotix.com/news/7735712/migrant-crisis-410-people-land-safely-palermo#media-7735288

tomh903
31st May 2015, 10:52
The footage of our first pickup was used in a report on Sky News last night, which is good seeing that a large proportion of the UK public watching it probably weren't even aware we had a navy.

hptmurphy
31st May 2015, 23:57
'El Eithne'...thats a :neek:new one!!!

Well done our people.

jack nastyface
1st June 2015, 01:29
'El Eithne'...thats a :neek:new one!!!

Well done our people.

Thats the Spanish one Murph...:)

ancientmariner
1st June 2015, 11:38
Thats the Spanish one Murph...:).

Now that Eithne, plus or minus the prefix, has displayed capacity for coping with up to 410 souls, does that make a case for all OPV's to have a flight deck for multi faceted operations and humanitarian roles. It seems she might be the only L.E. capable of handling the current task. Are all the questions being asked when we build new ships and are we likely to learn the lessons on offer.

RoyalGreenJacket
2nd June 2015, 13:40
Really!!! you should remember that this a humanitarian mission. Some respect please. If you were in their situation would you liked to be dumped?

this may not be quite the 'humanitarian mission' you think it is.

we just got back from Italy and spoke briefly with some Italian and British forces involved in the rescue operations - they said that as the Rescuers ships approach the Immigrants boats - the Migrants are often armed with knives and clubs and the Migrants first action is to ask the approaching vessel if they are from a European country - if the Rescuers are from a non-EU nation then the Migrants threaten the Rescuers and tell them to stay back and resist any attempt to be saved with no chance of entry into Europe, however when the Rescuers confirm they are from a European EU country then the Migrants use their knives and clubs to scuttle / damage their own boat enforcing a full rescue and a ticket into Europe.

there are genuine humanitarian cases - yes, but the fact that on most occasions the Migrants will only accept a rescue from an EU member state and refuse rescue from a non-EU nation tells you that these fcukers just want to freeload into and infiltrate our society.

they should never ever be allowed set foot on European soil, never - and i for one would be more than happy to throw them all into a cargo net and drop them off back in Libya.

tomh903
2nd June 2015, 19:30
the Migrants are often armed with knives and clubs and the Migrants first action is to ask the approaching vessel if they are from a European country

I presume for reasons such as this, at least one of the crew on the RIB are armed when they approach a migrant craft. They are very exposed if things did suddenly turn violent and looking at the videos of the rescues, the RIB could get swamped easily if there was a sudden rush for any reason.

Herald
3rd June 2015, 18:23
Eithne was to sail on Patrol again this afternoon.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/fashion/l%C3%A9-eithne-prepares-to-return-to-mediterranean-1.2235802

GoneToTheCanner
3rd June 2015, 20:36
I said it here years ago; give the NS their own aircraft, crews and kit. Tying the NS to the Don was a utter waste . The gardai and the Don works only because the gardai took only the bits they wanted and discarded the rest..........steel is cheap. Building a bare hull is the easiest part of shipbuilding in today's CNC world. Countries like South Korea and Japan can churn out any number of ships to any spec. Fitting a hull out with electronics and making the stuff work and talk to the other bits is what soaks up money..........danno, helipads at hospitals is another sorry saga...

tomh903
3rd June 2015, 22:34
Eithne left Palermo this evening and is back out on patrol. Irish Times saying it took a day to clean the ship, a day to resupply and a day’s leave.

Herald
4th June 2015, 23:48
12 Migrants rescued this morning.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/irish-navy-ship-rescues-12-migrants-near-italy-680223.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/le-eithne-rescues-12-in-distress-in-small-craft-off-italian-coast-31278426.html

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/pictures-irish-naval-ship-l-eithne-rescue-migrants-154824374.html#FDiJMba

Laners
5th June 2015, 07:22
No Tri Colour on the RHIB anymore ?

expat01
5th June 2015, 10:42
No Tri Colour on the RHIB anymore ?

So as not to draw attention maybe?
"What's this country then? Where do we find it?"

Flamingo
5th June 2015, 11:14
What (apart from the Libyans don't want them either) is stopping the rescue ships just dropping everybody back on a stretch of beach in Lybia with a few bottles of water, a few days ration packs, and saying "Here you are, you're on dry land now, you're safe"?

Dogwatch
5th June 2015, 15:13
12 Migrants rescued this morning.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/irish-navy-ship-rescues-12-migrants-near-italy-680223.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/le-eithne-rescues-12-in-distress-in-small-craft-off-italian-coast-31278426.html

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/pictures-irish-naval-ship-l-eithne-rescue-migrants-154824374.html#FDiJMba

LÉ EITHNE Rescues 12 Migrants off Lampedusa

http://navaltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LÉ-EITHNE-Rescues-12-Migrants-off-Lampedusa-1024x683.jpg

Yesterday, the Irish Navy’s vessel LÉ EITHNE successfully located and rescued a small craft with 12 persons on board that was in distress 30 miles north of Lampedusa, the largest of the Italian Pelagie Islands.

After departing Palermo, LÉ EITHNE received a PANPAN distress message relayed by Italian Search and Rescue Authorities of a small craft missing in the Mediterranean with 12 persons on board. A number of other vessels had been tasked with assisting in the search.

The Navy used extra lookouts and search patterns to comb the area where the vessel was last seen and at 8 am local time yesterday morning the vessel was spotted by the watch on deck.

LÉ EITHNE launched an immediate rescue effort and the 12 people were successfully recovered, dehydrated but alive. The vessel a fibreglass hulled boat, with a single outboard engine, approximately 6 metres in length, had departed Tripoli five days ago and was found with no fuel, food, or water on board.

Afterwards, the navy vessel set its course to a larger vessel to transfer the rescuees for the onward administrative processing by Italian authorities.

This is the fourth successful operation the LÉ EITHNE has undertaken since its departure from Cork on May 16, bringing to a total of 649 migrants saved since commencing operations.

http://navaltoday.com/2015/06/05/le-eithne-rescues-12-migrants-off-lampedusa/

morpheus
5th June 2015, 15:40
LÉ EITHNE Rescues 12 Migrants off Lampedusa

http://navaltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LÉ-EITHNE-Rescues-12-Migrants-off-Lampedusa-1024x683.jpg

Yesterday, the Irish Navy’s vessel LÉ EITHNE successfully located and rescued a small craft with 12 persons on board that was in distress 30 miles north of Lampedusa, the largest of the Italian Pelagie Islands.

After departing Palermo, LÉ EITHNE received a PANPAN distress message relayed by Italian Search and Rescue Authorities of a small craft missing in the Mediterranean with 12 persons on board. A number of other vessels had been tasked with assisting in the search.

The Navy used extra lookouts and search patterns to comb the area where the vessel was last seen and at 8 am local time yesterday morning the vessel was spotted by the watch on deck.

LÉ EITHNE launched an immediate rescue effort and the 12 people were successfully recovered, dehydrated but alive. The vessel a fibreglass hulled boat, with a single outboard engine, approximately 6 metres in length, had departed Tripoli five days ago and was found with no fuel, food, or water on board.

Afterwards, the navy vessel set its course to a larger vessel to transfer the rescuees for the onward administrative processing by Italian authorities.

This is the fourth successful operation the LÉ EITHNE has undertaken since its departure from Cork on May 16, bringing to a total of 649 migrants saved since commencing operations.

http://navaltoday.com/2015/06/05/le-eithne-rescues-12-migrants-off-lampedusa/

Good job lads,

imagine now if you will, how much easier it would have been with a Heli to help in this SAR mission

Flamingo
5th June 2015, 21:13
What happens to suspected pirates off the Horn of Africa? Where are they returned to, and would there not be a precedent there?

sofa
5th June 2015, 22:05
What (apart from the Libyans don't want them either) is stopping the rescue ships just dropping everybody back on a stretch of beach in Lybia with a few bottles of water, a few days ration packs, and saying "Here you are, you're on dry land now, you're safe"?

Put a big "WELCOME TO ITALY" sign on the beach,

(Black humor moment)

tomh903
6th June 2015, 00:37
There are reports the German Navy is now going sinking the boats once they rescue the migrants. The media are saying it is ''unprecedented naval force'' designed to combat the traffickers. I really don't think the media understand how the traffickers operate. They seem to be under the assumption that there are actual crew operating the boats who then return with the boats to Libya.

Once the boat leave the Libyan shore, the traffickers don't give a s**t about it because they probably acquired the boat for less than the price of five of their customers passages. Its a miracle if the boat manages to make the journey once, never mind being used again.

The stupidity of the politicians and media on this whole crisis is so frustrating, its like they honestly think destroying the boats after the migrants have been picked up by the EU's express ferry service is some sort of solution. They are delaying the inevitable by not realising now that there has only ever been one effective solution to illegal immigrants arriving by sea and that is to return them to their home shores immediately. Thousands more will die while the media and politicians continue to spout the crap that we'd be racist if we do anything short of bringing the hundreds of thousands of queuing migrants straight to Italy and further.

na grohmiti
6th June 2015, 02:49
The footage of our first pickup was used in a report on Sky News last night, which is good seeing that a large proportion of the UK public watching it probably weren't even aware we had a navy.
Except for the people of the Bideford estuary, who have been looking at a portion of our navy sitting on their quay wall since November last.

na grohmiti
6th June 2015, 02:50
Good job lads,

imagine now if you will, how much easier it would have been with a Heli to help in this SAR mission

How many can you fit in a heli before the downwash sinks the craft the refugees were travelling in?

ancientmariner
6th June 2015, 09:41
How many can you fit in a heli before the downwash sinks the craft the refugees were travelling in?

I think we need to plan now for Eithne's rotation in the mediterranean. How do we replace her effectively? Perhaps leave ship on station and rotate crew at a friendly port, say Gibraltar, using a week or so of training at Gib with a seatraining team from the current ships command. It seems space and capacity is the key for outcome.

ropebag
6th June 2015, 10:26
How many can you fit in a heli before the downwash sinks the craft the refugees were travelling in?

i get the impression that the security concerns of this mission mean that those being 'rescued' don't get rides in helicopters, the helicopters are used for ISR and if neccessary to transport very ill casualties from ship to shore (or much bigger, better equipped ship) once they have been searched/secured by the various navies.

na grohmiti
6th June 2015, 10:55
Or a fixed wing patrol aircraft, like the Spanish Casa?

The real Jack
6th June 2015, 13:06
What are they actually doing with the migrants once they pick them up? I see we picked up some floaters 40km from Libya. It's around 400km to mainland greece from Libya at the shortest route so they're being picked up after making 10% of the journey - it should be called a ferry service at this stage. Will this op end when we've picked up every migrant from Africa in 1000 years time?

na grohmiti
6th June 2015, 14:21
They are not heading for mainland Greece. Italy is the closer option, though I saw on Euronews last week a few turning up on the beaches of Kos, in a lidl style inflatable. Eithne is leaving them to Lampedusa mostly, though a few have gone to Palermo. Hug the Tunisian coast and it is possible (if unwise) in any small craft.

tomh903
6th June 2015, 15:20
Another 113 migrants were picked up by Eithne yesterday, that's over 750 in total now.

Flamingo
6th June 2015, 16:03
how long before someone proposes it would be cheaper and more humanitarian for the EU just to run a free ferry from North Africa to Europe? After all, it would undermine the trafficking trade...

Orion
6th June 2015, 16:44
What's happening to the migrants boats?
Being sunk?

na grohmiti
6th June 2015, 18:44
Have you seen the boats being used? most collapse as soon as people start getting off.

Does anyone here remember the early 80s when Ireland became home to what were known as the "boat people" of South Vietnam? We have been here before, it didn't cause any long term effects on the country, or Europe then either.

Brian McGrath
6th June 2015, 18:57
Just picked 310 more today it's on the Navy facebook, great work well done Navy

spider
6th June 2015, 21:01
Going to be a busy couple of days...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33036361

Orion
6th June 2015, 21:48
how long before someone proposes it would be cheaper and more humanitarian for the EU just to run a free ferry from North Africa to Europe? After all, it would undermine the trafficking trade...

Difference between a stile and a gate really, one stems/constricts the flow the other positively encourages it.

tomh903
6th June 2015, 21:56
Over 500,000 people waiting to make the crossing and paying anywhere up to a $1,000 for a ticket. That's a hell of a lot of money involved and you know its going straight to the guys who control the ports. Not hard to see why ISIS are battering the Iraqi Army around the place, they must be the best funded terrorist group in history owing to little schemes such as this one.

Orion
6th June 2015, 22:09
Where do the migrants get the money - that's USD quoted

ropebag
6th June 2015, 22:20
Difference between a stile and a gate really, one stems/constricts the flow the other positively encourages it.

the problem is that from where these people are from, the lure of shit jobs in Europe is enough of an encouragement to be worth the over-the-Sahara trek, being robbed by the traffikers, and the 25% fatality rate crossing the Med. the SAR mission, and even a ferry trip might increase that lure, but doing nothing wouldn't be a barrier.

the BBC reckons there's 500,000 migrants waiting in Libya right now for a place on the boats, and considering how long it takes these people to get to Libya, they started on their journeys when the SAR mission had been down-scaled.

unless anyone thinks we're going to cure Africa/ME's problems of poverty, missgovernance and climate change in the next few months, these people are coming, and either we dump them back in Libya and burn every boat and packing case on the north african coast, we put them in vast camps, or we accept them and integrate them.

Orion
6th June 2015, 22:40
Ok, but where does the 'average' ME/A migrant get $1000, times the number of family members. Surely in their countries that would be a fortune that would afford some financial security.

Not sure how a refugee could rustle up $1000.

Do the traffickers have control over where these people end up?

ancientmariner
6th June 2015, 23:16
Ok, but where does the 'average' ME/A migrant get $1000, times the number of family members. Surely in their countries that would be a fortune that would afford some financial security.

Not sure how a refugee could rustle up $1000.

Do the traffickers have control over where these people end up?

Who pays who, what, is just an ingredient in this mass migration. The UN, but principally the EU countries, must contemplate establishing a mandated territory in the Libyan mainland in order to bring stability and rule of law to that territory. The main objective, to rid the territory of the traffickers and restore normal living conditions without ISIS, or splinter groups inputs. There is an urgent need to see Syria and Libya restored to Statehood as the present migration has the potential to destabilize fragile European States. The Security Council should consider the matter and outline an agreed course of action. In the meantime EITHNE has rescued 1049 persons with every chance of exceeding those figures as days go by.

ropebag
6th June 2015, 23:38
Ok, but where does the 'average' ME/A migrant get $1000...?

it appears that most of those migrants who get as far as the Libyan coast are from the middle classes (such as they are), they are the educated, they've probably been employed, they might well have been migrants before, in that they've already moved from home countries/regions to countries/regions where there's work. $1000US for people who've lived in a mud hut with a dozen goats all their lives is an unimaginable sum, to someone with a degree and 'social capital' its not, and its not the goat-herders who get to Italy...

in addition, the traffikers are part of very large, sophisticated, networks - you can borrow the money, or more precisely get a credit agreement for the trip, in your home town which your family will pay off, and your trip will be laid on for you to just turn up. moreover, you've then got the next version which is euphamistically termed 'indenture' and is in reality slavery: you sign on in your hometown, the traffikers then get you to Europe and you work for them to pay off the loan. however, at $10US a day and a spectaular interest rate, that will take decades. the work might be prostitution, drug-running, shop-lifting, labouring, domestic work...

tomh903
6th June 2015, 23:52
http://time.com/3857121/isis-smuggling/

Time magazine are saying ISIS are actually making a figure closer to $2000 per migrant. They charge a thousand to get into Libya and another thousand for a place on the boat. ISIS had already made $323 million by early May this year, that figure is going to jump hugely now that migrants are being encouraged by increased pickups and the summer sea conditions.

The EU's current policy is directly funding the most dangerous terrorist organisation in the world not to mention the warlords we are in all probability going to have to fight in the near future to make Libya a country gain.

na grohmiti
6th June 2015, 23:54
it appears that most of those migrants who get as far as the Libyan coast are from the middle classes (such as they are), they are the educated, they've probably been employed, they might well have been migrants before, in that they've already moved from home countries/regions to countries/regions where there's work. $1000US for people who've lived in a mud hut with a dozen goats all their lives is an unimaginable sum, to someone with a degree and 'social capital' its not, and its not the goat-herders who get to Italy...

in addition, the traffikers are part of very large, sophisticated, networks - you can borrow the money, or more precisely get a credit agreement for the trip, in your home town which your family will pay off, and your trip will be laid on for you to just turn up. moreover, you've then got the next version which is euphamistically termed 'indenture' and is in reality slavery: you sign on in your hometown, the traffikers then get you to Europe and you work for them to pay off the loan. however, at $10US a day and a spectaular interest rate, that will take decades. the work might be prostitution, drug-running, shop-lifting, labouring, domestic work...

This seems to be the case, these are not wealthy folk, they just found themselves blessed to meet a benefactor who was willing to loan them the fare with certain conditions. Worth noting that at the start of this crisis, before the Irish NS became involved, €1000 dollars was the standard fare.
The tragedy being of course that were these people to fly by scheduled airline from their place of origin, it would only cost €300 one way. But the EU has in place penalties for airlines who carry passengers who do not have correct documentation, i.e Entry Visa. However you cannot get a Visa to be a refugee from the place you are fleeing. There is of course a Get out clause in the EU regulations that removes the need for refugees to have correct documentation. But you cannot declare yourself a refugee until you arrive at your destination, and you won't have the correct documentation so you can't get on the plane....

So instead they pay €3000 to criminals for a trip across the Med on a glorified Lilo.

hptmurphy
7th June 2015, 00:22
I think we need to plan now for Eithne's rotation in the mediterranean. How do we replace her effectively? Perhaps leave ship on station and rotate crew at a friendly port, say Gibraltar, using a week or so of training at Gib with a seatraining team from the current ships command. It seems space and capacity is the key for outcome.

I did suggest this earlier, bearing in mind a lot of the officers and senior rates will probably have served on Eithne at some point a work up shouldn't take that long.Shes just out of a long refit so should be mechanically sound for a good while to come.

Herald
7th June 2015, 03:02
Irish Mirror article which has a bit more detail than some of the articles posted over the last few days which are basically regurgitated press releases from the DF.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-navy-rescues-415-migrants-5836787

"Fewer than 100 migrants drowned last month compared to 329 in May 2014.

However, up to half a million refugees are massing in Libya to try and flee to Europe by boat."

Jetjock
7th June 2015, 10:54
I don't think anyone would have envisaged the deployment being this busy.

Given the pace of rescues thus far, one hopes crew burnout doesn't occur much earlier than anticipated.

Much as with a full blown combat mission, I would hope after witnessing human desperation on this scale, crew are provided with any and all post deployment support as is necessary.

ropebag
7th June 2015, 12:43
serious question.

how long can the NS maintain crewing an OPV in the Med? if the NSR is mobilised, or smart mobilised, for a longer period of time to help the NS in home/EEZ waters, would that help matters?

Orion
7th June 2015, 12:52
.... up to half a million refugees are massing in Libya to try and flee to Europe by boat."

And with rescue more likely more will want to take the risk ... vicious circle

Orion
7th June 2015, 14:00
Eithne gets a mention here

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/07/royal-navy-hms-bulwark-mission-rescue-migrants-libya

Herald
7th June 2015, 14:51
Eithne gets a mention here

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/07/royal-navy-hms-bulwark-mission-rescue-migrants-libya

And in the Mail.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102439/Libyan-prime-minister-threatens-retaliate-EU-use-force-against-people-smugglers-based-waters.html

hptmurphy
7th June 2015, 23:26
serious question.

how long can the NS maintain crewing an OPV in the Med? if the NSR is mobilised, or smart mobilised, for a longer period of time to help the NS in home/EEZ waters, would that help matters?

No they don't have the entire skill set require to put ships to sea, limited to certain roles. All the techy stuffy and officers watch keeping from both navigation and engineering can't be cover by the NSR. I also notice a fair compliment of divers again a role that can't be covered.

They could release bods from the base from duties etc.

I reckon the EU / UN will have to start to get other Navies on board who have large capacity vessels capable of doing a similar role.

Technically the ships can stay on station as long as there are no technical difficulties that can't be looked after locally.Rotation of crews is not some we have done before but as I said given the familiarity levels across the NS with the ship, they could pull a second crew together without too much difficulty, but and the big but being given the shortages in manpower it could require another ship to be tied up.