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DeV
25th March 2015, 11:52
If the figures we have on the thread are correct:

We got 9 x CRV (armed with RWS (12.7/40mm) and 6 x MRV (armed with 30mm) for a budgeted €25m

Should the Cav (as resources become available) be equipped with a combination of CRVs and MRVs (possibly if a few LTAVs as well)? They are well suited IMHO to the declared role of light armoured combat support resource. For another approx €25m we could fully equip the PDF Cav elements with CRVs and MRVs and have a few spares.

Then you have the DE element (which could increase Cav establishment) suitably equipped and trained (with the likely of GSR, 84mm and/or Javelin, snipers etc. You then have an ISTAR Coy per Bde.

Question is do we want to maintain the armoured combat resource of 1ACS? So do we want to replace the Scorpion or just remove the capability? But on the other side you have much better equipped and capable Cav Sqns.

hptmurphy
25th March 2015, 13:47
With the numbers quoted you have almost one full strenght squadron, so to give the second brigade an equal squadron you need to replicate that equipment 1 ACS has.

Or do you have one fully equiped squadron maintained as a sperate entity from the brigades but deployable with either with enough kit to have a deployed overseas element as well as that retained at home?

The real Jack
25th March 2015, 14:13
Or just spend 25m on parts upgrades and resets so the whole fleet is actually running.

DeV
25th March 2015, 17:20
With the numbers quoted you have almost one full strenght squadron, so to give the second brigade an equal squadron you need to replicate that equipment 1 ACS has.

Or do you have one fully equiped squadron maintained as a sperate entity from the brigades but deployable with either with enough kit to have a deployed overseas element as well as that retained at home?

What I meant was transfer all the existing MRVs and CRVs from 1ACS to the Cav Sqns and place a similar (or slightly reduced) order for another 9 x CRVs and 6 x MRVs. That would mean 2 troops of CRVs and 1 troop of MRVs per Sqn (say another troop in LTAV), leaving 2 x CRVs and 4 x MRVs spare for overseas, Cav Sch etc. The question is then do you keep 1ACS (and if you do what do you equip them with)?

Alternatively, place the same order. Giving 2 troops of CRVs per Sqn (remainder in LTAV and soft skinned vehicles) and then you have 12 x MRVs for 1ACS.

Personally I like what the MRV has to offer in terms of extra support to a Cav Sqn (and it doesn't mean Cav still have soft skinned vehicles in Recce Tps).

DeV
25th March 2015, 17:20
Or just spend 25m on parts upgrades and resets so the whole fleet is actually running.

That too!

madmark
25th March 2015, 17:38
What I meant was transfer all the existing MRVs and CRVs from 1ACS to the Cav Sqns and place a similar (or slightly reduced) order for another 9 x CRVs and 6 x MRVs. That would mean 2 troops of CRVs and 1 troop of MRVs per Sqn (say another troop in LTAV), leaving 2 x CRVs and 4 x MRVs spare for overseas, Cav Sch etc. The question is then do you keep 1ACS (and if you do what do you equip them with)?

Alternatively, place the same order. Giving 2 troops of CRVs per Sqn (remainder in LTAV and soft skinned vehicles) and then you have 12 x MRVs for 1ACS.

Personally I like what the MRV has to offer in terms of extra support to a Cav Sqn (and it doesn't mean Cav still have soft skinned vehicles in Recce Tps).

or they could just upgrade older INF mowags to CRV oh wait thats what they are doing

DeV
25th March 2015, 19:35
or they could just upgrade older INF mowags to CRV oh wait thats what they are doing

IMHO no. Why?
Because we don't have enough for the infantry as it is!

Rhodes
25th March 2015, 23:58
The current system of having armour managed by single units for each vehicle type in one location works well, then deploying what's needed, where its needed and when its needed.
With all the barrack closers in recent years most remaining barracks are literally bursting at the seams so there is no space to built the facilities needed to house a fleet of Mowags if the fleet was split between individual units.

Its very unlikely funding will be provided to purchased anymore Mowags for the fleet to be brought up to the planned full strength. Concentration is now on upgrading and modernising.

DeV
26th March 2015, 06:21
You are correct but we still don't have enough for a Bn overseas

FMP
28th March 2015, 12:21
If the figures we have on the thread are correct:

We got 9 x CRV (armed with RWS (12.7/40mm) and 6 x MRV (armed with 30mm)

Should the Cav (as resources become available) be equipped with a combination of CRVs and MRVs (possibly if a few LTAVs as well)? They are well suited IMHO to the declared role of light armoured combat support resource. For another approx €25m we could fully equip the PDF Cav elements with CRVs and MRVs and have a few spares.

Then you have the DE element (which could increase Cav establishment) suitably equipped and trained (with the likely of GSR, 84mm and/or Javelin, snipers etc. You then have an ISTAR Coy per Bde.

Question is do we want to maintain the armoured combat resource of 1ACS? So do we want to replace the Scorpion or just remove the capability? But on the other side you have much better equipped and capable Cav Sqns.

DeV, like your thinking. Last year I was going to / did touch on this with the intention of elaborating. Got a bit busy and waylaid but you have stoked the fires again with your post. Plus I'm home on leave and have some time to kill (single again). BTW I'm off to Clare tomorrow via Rosslare, visit some of the tribe for a week, beers anyone?

Right, back to the point.

Firstly: CVRT. Get rid!!! Now!! Do not spend another penny on them. The only capability you will lose is "How to fit a thrown track". End of. A complete drain on resources and all resources should go to your fleet of LTAV's and the PIII's. Which should, all be Cav assets. Will elaborate further later. Have an ORBAT brewing in my head. LOVE ORBAT's!!!! No cloud cuckoo land stuff, just using what you actually have and looking at the role played by armored formations.

Secondly: I need some numbers validated and a few questions answered. According to various sources you should have the following in your inventory:

LTAV:

Standard (STD): 15 (With RWS)
Surveillance & Target Acquisition (STA): 4
Intelligence/Surveillance/Reconnaissance (ISR): 6 (With RWS)
Communications and Information Services (CIS): 2

Source: http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?10910-Light-Tactical-Armoured-Vehicle-Second-attempt/page10&highlight=latv

Crying shame phase 2 & 3 were not realised. Or were they? Changes everything if the were!

PIII:

APC: 54
Command: 8
Ambo: 2
Fitter: 1
MRV: 6
CRV: 9

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_vehicles_of_the_Irish_Army

In regards to the LTAV, something from the original tender seems to have changed. The number of vehicles with RWS. Can someone confirm / deny this? Also various questions and confirmation of which is which ........

The STD variant, 15 off in 12.7 & 40?

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3241/5744150869_3dcfeeba54_b.jpg

The STA variant, 4 off. Why are they not armed? Don't say because of the mast please.

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/roykinsella/IrishArmyM105mmHowitzer2011RG-32MsightsystemDec162010.jpg

The CIS variant (lead vehicle), 2 off, again why not armed? See above mast comment.

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5819&stc=1&d=1307397667

The ISR variant (process of elimination), 6 off. So question here is, what happened to the RWS from the initial tender / specs?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4005/4577769933_75a6ba4f8f.jpg

Cheers for now and will get back to you on this. For the time being no comments about Cavalry V's Infantry etc. etc. please. That's not what this is about.

Leave ones loyalties at the door and lets have a serious look at uitilising what the DF have to the the best of its ability in armored formations / brigade assets.

ORBAT's to follow once numbers etc. confirmed.

spider pig
28th March 2015, 12:39
A number of inf mowags are being refurbed and upgraded to crv's. I think this was mentioned elsewhere on the forum. These upgraded cars are then being sent to Cav units. By the end of the year (if all goes to plan) 1 Cav and 2 Cav will both have a number of mowags and LTAVs

apod
28th March 2015, 13:29
You got your LTAV pictures mixed up FMP the top picture is the ISR variant.Operated by the Cav.The bottom picture is the standard Infantry car.Only Cav ISR LTAVS have the RWS and draeger overpressure system for CBRN recce.

ODIN
28th March 2015, 13:55
A number of inf mowags are being refurbed and upgraded to crv's. I think this was mentioned elsewhere on the forum. These upgraded cars are then being sent to Cav units. By the end of the year (if all goes to plan) 1 Cav and 2 Cav will both have a number of mowags and LTAVs

Is there a plan to replace the infantry cars in the future?

FMP
28th March 2015, 13:57
Cheers for that apod. So does that mean the Standard variants are now all carrying turrets with 7.62 (15 off)? That's quiet a change from the DoD document posted on here.

paul g
28th March 2015, 15:10
A number of inf mowags are being refurbed and upgraded to crv's. I think this was mentioned elsewhere on the forum. These upgraded cars are then being sent to Cav units. By the end of the year (if all goes to plan) 1 Cav and 2 Cav will both have a number of mowags and LTAVs

Actually all the APCs are going to be modernised with the RWS between now and 2019.

DeV
28th March 2015, 16:28
MOD: use publicly available info only

DeV
28th March 2015, 16:43
If we look how our nearest neighbour ORBAT for a Armd Recce Sqn (nearest equivalent to a Cav Sqn):

HQ Tp (2xSultan, 2xSamitarian)
3 x Recce Tp (each with 4xScimitar)
GW Tp (4xStriker)
Sp Tp (4xSpartan)
Mech Section (Spartan & Spartan)

Broadly speaking a Cav Sqn would be similar.

So ideally, Cav Sqn
HQ Tp with LTAVs
3 x Recce Tp (each with 4xCRV or 2xCRV & 2xLTAV or 2xCRV Recce Tp & 1xLTAV Recce Tp)
Sp Tp (4xMRV & 1xFitter vehicle)

FMP
28th March 2015, 17:37
That's exactly where my thoughts lay.

With the Armd Recce Sqn providing Brigade level Cav recce element, but also looking at higher formation supporting elements (Division level if you will, combination of the two Brigades). Maneuver Sqn's with organic fire and recce support etc. etc. Just giggling numbers and what not at the moment. Looking at tasks and what ideally would be required to complete those tasks with what you have to hand. Pretty well used everything up actually, and not just for the sake of it. Will work on it as the evening goes on.

Keeping the gray matter occupied.

FMP
28th March 2015, 21:22
Brigade level first. Don't forget gents this is just me exercising my gray matter, (ORBAT's! My version of counting sheep).

There is a few years of "doing it" behind the train of thought though so its not all a result of sleep deprivation :-D.

What is this Cav Sqn going to do? In a nutshell ISTAR! Now for a name, I'm going with Brigade Reconnaissance Force (Go with what you know :biggrin:).

The Brigade Reconnaissance Force (BRF). A squadron sized unit, using protected vehicles to identify and if necessary strike hostile elements, through organic means (e.g. ATGW and Mortars) and non organic means (e.g. Brigade level Artillery gun lines and Infantry mortar lines) "target acquisition". The basic task of the BRF is to obtain accurate information through surveillance and reconnaissance about the enemy and develop an intelligence picture in their areas of responsibility for their senior commander (Brigade Commander), in order to allow him to make informed decisions and task assets accordingly. In a defensive scenario they are to identify the direction and strength of the enemy thrusts, impose maximum delay and damage to the enemy's reconnaissance forces, while allowing main forces to maneuver to combat the threat. The other element to this "New Cav Corps" and will cover it later.

Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, Reconnaissance. Their bread and butter. What is required in order to achieve this is the grouping together of asset capable (ISR / STA) vehicles to allow the various ISTAR elements to combine. Both Brigades to have identical Sqn's.

BRF ORBAT:

A Troop:
1 x LATV ISR
1 x LATV STA
2 x LATV STD (ATGW)

B Troop:
1 x LATV ISR
1 x LATV STA
2 x LATV STD (ATGW)

C Troop:
4 x PIII APC
16 x Dismounts (OP's, CTR's, Snipers, FP etc.)

SP Troop:
2 x LATV STD (ATGW)
2 x PIII APC (81 mm Mortars)

HQ Troop:
1 x LATV CIS
1 x LATV ISR (2 i/c)
1 x PIII CV (OC Sqn)
1 x PIII APC (SSM)

Q Troop:
B Vehicles (Diesel, oils, lube, water, rats, ammo etc.)
Soft skin fitter section and wrecker. Same for Ambo (Not enough of the required type of PIII's)

Total numbers of armoured vehicles used across both Brigades in the two Sqn's:

6 x LATV Intelligence / Surveillance / Reconnaissance (ISR).
4 x LATV Surveillance & Target Acquisition (STA).
12 x LATV Standard (STD).
2 x LATV Communications & Information Services (CIS).
2 x PIII Command Vehicle (CV).
14 x PIII Armoured Personnel Carrier (APC).

By way of a p.s.

1. The LATV STD was unfortunately not fitted with RWS as was the original plan. That leaves the 2 x ISTAR troops (A & B Troop) a little light on firepower. But their role is to gather Int covertly and pass it up the chain. Call in FIRES when required and they still have the capability to destroy Armour etc. via Javelin ATGW. All without getting too up close and personal with the enemy.

2. The mortar section consists of only 2 x tubes so mass fire missions will not be the order of the day but they are obviously capable of putting HE on an advancing enemy. Illum and Smoke will be their primary missions, Illum over the FEBA in support of the main force night time advance to contact for example. Smoke screening and / or HE in support of the ISTAR troop etc. as they withdraw from contact.

3. I'm guessing there will be lots of "where are the CRV's and MRV's?" Have not forgotten about them and they have their part to play within the "Main (Cav) force". Recce as opposed to ISTAR which is of course their role. You could of course add a CRV troop to the above and a Maneuver Sqn, but all that can be discussed later. Want to give you the basic overall "New Cav Corps" layout before that. Once its there, flexibility and the ability to adapt to various mission profiles becomes clearer. You just need your conventional war type ORBAT in place first.

GoneToTheCanner
31st March 2015, 17:03
What Main Force? Everybody's too busy ISTAR-ing away like mad to be doing grunt work. No mention of truck or jeep/pajero/4x4 numbers or the 120mm mortar...

DeV
31st March 2015, 18:19
Can we be realistic with numbers as well?

4 MOWAGs in C Tp to carry 16 dismounts? They will fit in 2, how many do we have again?

LTAVs were purchased for inf, Cav, arty and engr

DeV
31st March 2015, 18:39
The missions they undertake etc:
http://www.military.ie/army/organisation/army-corps/cavalry/

apod
31st March 2015, 19:54
Can we be realistic with numbers as well?

4 MOWAGs in C Tp to carry 16 dismounts? They will fit in 2, how many do we have again?

LTAVs were purchased for inf, Cav, arty and engr

CIS. Not Engineers.

hptmurphy
31st March 2015, 20:46
SP Troop:
2 x LATV STD (ATGW)
2 x PIII APC (81 mm Mortars)

Why would Support Troop not have MRVs as opposed to dismounts with deployable weapons?

Concept of OPs for Cav was that Support would provide fire support for a recce element and be able to disengage rapidly.

Support Platoon in an Infantry set up would have the weapons suggested for enhanced ops and for prolonged engagements.

The full Cavalry squadron in its original format as a Brigade Recce element was quite similar to that you suggest but mortars were an an inbuilt component of AML 60s, a very useful mobile mortar platform, The Armoured section deploying both soft skins armour with Heavy weapons and anti tank capability.

Redeploy C troop across A and B troops give each troop one MRV with the specialists attached.

Amalgamate your Q troop back into the HQ troop, redesignate 'A' troop as the 'Recce Troop' and 'B' Troop as Armour.. guess what , your back to where a Cav Squadron should have been from inception.

The removal of the key vehicles meant the squadrons had to be re aligned to their current setup as there was no vehicle in sight as a replacement for the AML 90 , but as the MRV now fills that role, you could actually be back to square one.

the major problem in the Irish Army as it always has been , the larger the unit, the more appointments to be maintained and filled. Due to the nature in which troops are deployed overseas and at home on course on duties etc, actually maintaining the unit as per its declared strenght is albeit impossible. The unit as described has too many specialist vacancies and will suffer as a result. If the amount of specialists is kept to a minimum but the require features retained you have some hope of keeping it working.

The key problem being we have three units declared as being able to do the same role but in effect due to equipment distribution only one could be formed from the units combined.

Solution. Disband one, and reform the other two using the excess, equip one fully and riate the other through the role say every two years giving time for up skilling, overseas deployments, career course etc.

Again hypothetical.

DeV
31st March 2015, 21:20
Why would Support Troop not have MRVs as opposed to dismounts with deployable weapons?

Concept of OPs for Cav was that Support would provide fire support for a recce element and be able to disengage rapidly.

Support Platoon in an Infantry set up would have the weapons suggested for enhanced ops and for prolonged engagements.

The full Cavalry squadron in its original format as a Brigade Recce element was quite similar to that you suggest but mortars were an an inbuilt component of AML 60s, a very useful mobile mortar platform, The Armoured section deploying both soft skins armour with Heavy weapons and anti tank capability.

Redeploy C troop across A and B troops give each troop one MRV with the specialists attached.

Amalgamate your Q troop back into the HQ troop, redesignate 'A' troop as the 'Recce Troop' and 'B' Troop as Armour.. guess what , your back to where a Cav Squadron should have been from inception.

The removal of the key vehicles meant the squadrons had to be re aligned to their current setup as there was no vehicle in sight as a replacement for the AML 90 , but as the MRV now fills that role, you could actually be back to square one.

the major problem in the Irish Army as it always has been , the larger the unit, the more appointments to be maintained and filled. Due to the nature in which troops are deployed overseas and at home on course on duties etc, actually maintaining the unit as per its declared strenght is albeit impossible. The unit as described has too many specialist vacancies and will suffer as a result. If the amount of specialists is kept to a minimum but the require features retained you have some hope of keeping it working.

The key problem being we have three units declared as being able to do the same role but in effect due to equipment distribution only one could be formed from the units combined.

Solution. Disband one, and reform the other two using the excess, equip one fully and riate the other through the role say every two years giving time for up skilling, overseas deployments, career course etc.

Again hypothetical.



+1

Only comment I would have would be that the 3 recce troops should have the same set up and equipment (as far as possible, budgets being the major issue) so they can all undertake the same tasks.

What is the DE in the CRV and MRV? 6 and 4 ?

na grohmiti
31st March 2015, 23:06
It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop.

Its so simple.

Its an infantry section, but on wheels.
There is the riflemen, who move forward to contact, and there is the GPMG who covers the movement with firepower if required.
But your riflemen in the old days were the soft skin cars. The GPMG was the Panhard. Simples.

spider pig
1st April 2015, 00:02
i think infantry on wheels is actually the mechanised infantry role which our infantry is based on.

Cav have a different role and makeup. First of all a troop is more a kin to a platoon

As for your advance to contact theory it's a recce unit so the idea is to not get contacted but to get information and pass or on. But they also do flank security or add to the firepower in regular convoys

DeV
1st April 2015, 07:32
It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop.

Its so simple.

Its an infantry section, but on wheels.
There is the riflemen, who move forward to contact, and there is the GPMG who covers the movement with firepower if required.
But your riflemen in the old days were the soft skin cars. The GPMG was the Panhard. Simples.

Except with the CRV, it is both the old Panhard and Nissan


i think infantry on wheels is actually the mechanised infantry role which our infantry is based on.

Cav have a different role and makeup. First of all a troop is more a kin to a platoon

As for your advance to contact theory it's a recce unit so the idea is to not get contacted but to get information and pass or on. But they also do flank security or add to the firepower in regular convoys

Cav's major focus is ISTAR but they have other roles.
Eg in a mobile offensive, they could be a screen advancing to condact

FMP
1st April 2015, 09:45
As for your advance to contact theory it's a recce unit so the idea is to not get contacted but to get information and pass or on. But they also do flank security or add to the firepower in regular convoys

Re- read. In support the main force (to follow) and to aid a withdraw from contact should your recce force get into bother, occupational hazard.

FMP
1st April 2015, 09:47
na grohmití It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop.

Seriously! You want to go down that road? Why do you always have something "personal" to say in your posts? Why not just stick to the point in question?


Its so simple.

Its an infantry section, but on wheels.
There is the riflemen, who move forward to contact, and there is the GPMG who covers the movement with firepower if required.
But your riflemen in the old days were the soft skin cars. The GPMG was the Panhard. Simples.

Your talking about Mech infantry not an armoured recce force. It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop. Or the difference between Mech Infantry and Cavalry.

FMP
1st April 2015, 10:25
@ hptmurphy.


Why would Support Troop not have MRVs as opposed to dismounts with deployable weapons?Concept of OPs for Cav was that Support would provide fire support for a recce element and be able to disengage rapidly.

Your support troop in BRF are there to provide indirect fire support to your A + B troop in the event of withdraw from contact (again an occupational hazard) your MRV's would most probably be in an advance to contact role with your maneuver Sqn. A + B Troop can provide an element of fire and manuver during same (while calling in FIRES) but SP Troop would put down the required screening and / or HE / ATGW assets, having DF'ed the area its Troops are operating in. Not forgetting most of the vehicles are armed 12.7, 7.62 and there are 6 x ATGW within the Sqn. Their ability to call in FIRES gives them access to 120 mm and 105 mm from Arty gun lines don't forget (because now STA is located where it needs to be).


Support Platoon in an Infantry set up would have the weapons suggested for enhanced ops and for prolonged engagements.

Idea is not to get involved in a prolonged engagement but identify enemy force movements and provide ISTAR on same so Brigade commander can task his motorised infantry while Cav "main force" move to provide mechanized armoured infantry intervention in support of said motorised infantary.


The full Cavalry squadron in its original format as a Brigade Recce element was quite similar to that you suggest but mortars were an an inbuilt component of AML 60s, a very useful mobile mortar platform,

60's no longer in the inventory so you need an alternative, PIII's with a mortar det would do the job nicely.


The Armoured section deploying both soft skins armour with Heavy weapons and anti tank capability.

Idea is to try and move away from that soft skin / armoured mix in the troops.


Amalgamate your Q troop back into the HQ troop, redesignate 'A' troop as the 'Recce Troop' and 'B' Troop as Armour.. guess what , your back to where a Cav Squadron should have been from inception.

Again from a tactical point of view you do not want your B vehicle train anywhere near your armour, remember there recce and therefore right up at the tip of the spear, the first elements that will lightly encounter an enemy unit (their recce screen). Q Troop in a harbour under cover linked with your brigade forward elements.


The removal of the key vehicles meant the squadrons had to be re aligned to their current setup as there was no vehicle in sight as a replacement for the AML 90 , but as the MRV now fills that role, you could actually be back to square one.

You wont have lost your MRV's there just part of the "Main Cav force", literally a case of Cav to the rescue.


the major problem in the Irish Army as it always has been , the larger the unit, the more appointments to be maintained and filled. Due to the nature in which troops are deployed overseas and at home on course on duties etc, actually maintaining the unit as per its declared strenght is albeit impossible. The unit as described has too many specialist vacancies and will suffer as a result. If the amount of specialists is kept to a minimum but the require features retained you have some hope of keeping it working.

But their being maintained and filled as it is?!?! Just in penny packets with different units around the country. All i have done is group them together into a cohesive unit which actually makes it easier to deploy them overseas etc, "ISTAR unit required for the NBG, A Troop, off you go,,,,,,and take HQ Troop with you etc. etc". I see what your saying and understand it, hence all armour in the DF should be Cav owned and crewed. MFC's, FOO's and JTAC's are not from the Infantry, Artillery or Air Force, there Cav who have been trained up, same as your vehicle crews and for the most part the bods in the back.

Interesting stuff.

FMP
1st April 2015, 10:27
What Main Force? Everybody's too busy ISTAR-ing away like mad to be doing grunt work. No mention of truck or jeep/pajero/4x4 numbers or the 120mm mortar...

If you look at it again there is still a lot to cover and I will. (Where are the CRV's, MRV's and the rest of the PIII's???)

Soft skin's??? Its an armoured recce force with the ability to call in FIRES via their STA capability. B Vehicles = truck/jeep/pajero/4x4, admin and support of the armoured fleet, not up front getting in the way or mallated.

FMP
1st April 2015, 11:43
Anyway onto your "Main Cav Force".

The teeth of your Cav formation and the crowd that comes to the rescue of your brigade commander and his motorised infantry (and bits). A division level (or the DF equivalent) high readiness reaction force.

Lets go with Force Mobile Reserve (go with what YOU know).

Comprised of a Recce / Fire support Sqn, 2 x Maneuver Sqn's and the usual HQ and Q elements.

FMR Orbat:

Recce Sqn:

A Troop:
4 x CRV
16 x Dismounts
(CTR"s, OP's, Sniper teams etc. etc.)

B Troop:
4 x CRV
16 x Dismounts
(CTR"s, OP's, Sniper teams etc. etc.)

C Troop:
4 x MRV

HQ Troop:
1 x PIII CV (O/C Sqn)
1 x PIII APC (2 I/C + SSM)
2 x MRV


Maneuver Sqn x 2

A Troop:
4 x PIII APC
3 x Section + HQ

B Troop:
4 x PIII APC
3 x Section + HQ

C Troop:
4 x PIII APC
3 x Section + HQ

SP Troop:
4 x PIII APC
2 x Javlin + 2 x 81 mm Mortar

HQ Troop:
1 x PIII CV (O/C Sqn)
2 x PIII APC (2 I/C +SSM)
1 x PIII Ambo


Cav Corps HQ:

HQ Troop: Tac 1 + Tac 2
2 x PIII CV
2 x PIII APC
2 x LATV STD

Armd Fitter Section:
1 x PIII Fitter
1 x LATV STD

Q Sqn:
B Vehicles
(Diesel, oil, water, rats, ammo etc. etc. etc.)

Total numbers of armoured vehicles used in the Recce Sqn, both Maneuver Sqn's etc.:

8 x CRV
6 x MRV
5 x PIII CV
2 x PIII Ambo
1 x PIII Fitter
3 x LATV STD
40 x PIII APC

Above numbers plus the BRF numbers actually exist in your inventory (according to numbers available on here and the DF website so no cloud 9 stuff required). How many are still in working order is anyone's guess but got to start somewhere.

A question was asked "why only 4 dismounts in the BRF C Troop (and the FMR Recce A & B Troops). Specalised troops who will insert into OP's, carry out CTR's and will have a number of sniper teams among them. That's a lot of kit that needs to be carried in their wagon. Its not about putting arses on seats its about putting the right arses on seats and ensuring they have all their kit to hand. Add a CG 84 mm to each of the afore mentioned vehicle and you wont have room to swing a nat!

Putting arses on seats is what the Maneuver Sqn's are about.

Because everything is in-house Cav all expertise is under one roof, from maintenance to TTP's.

It also gives you a very flexible adaptable force for those overseas deployments.

A maneuver Sqn with troop attachments from FMR Recce and the BRF gives you a half decent armoured unit that can be configured to various mission profiles. Add or remove troops as the mission requires. But at the heart of it you have 2 x BRF Recce / ISTAR Sqn's in support of their assigned brigades and a FMR in support of them. All under one roof, Cav! Not in bits and bob's spread out around various units all over the country just because they all want some of the pie. Deploying vehicles here and there in two's and threes's with no mutual support is pointless. It achieves nothing and was one of the first lessons learned in WWI (By the Germans) hope we have moved on a bit since then.

DeV
1st April 2015, 18:45
In a conventional scenario, where is your support Tp (with 81s) going to be?
- if behind the FEBA they will be out of range
- if up in the middle with a troop, you will be out of range of the other 2 (and extremely vunerable)

Armour generally works in 2 sections or 2 vehicles (with direct fire wpns), 1 section providing overwatch while the other moves (that is Western tactics). With stabilised wpns they can do this on the move and therefore get out of trouble quickly.

Cav operate so far forward, the only fires that they can call on would be 155/MLRS/air/naval. Even if you put a 105 in the middle on the FEBA, the Cav could be out of range.

So you propose to have a Cav Bn/Regt?
What do the infantry travel in because you've taken all their APCs?

na grohmiti
1st April 2015, 19:20
Seriously! You want to go down that road? Why do you always have something "personal" to say in your posts? Why not just stick to the point in question?



Your talking about Mech infantry not an armoured recce force. It always amazes me how those not in the world of cavalry cannot understand the concept and organisation of a troop. Or the difference between Mech Infantry and Cavalry.

Eh.
No.
I was Cavalry. What's your excuse? You seem to have first understood, then completely misunderstood my post.
Mech infantry is infantry who walk less, and have vehicles in support instead of people with mortars and anti tank guns on their back.
Cavalry is (Here anyway) light armoured recce. I was using the soldier analogy to avoid entering the Opsec world.
I will send you a polite PM to explain our orbat here. Promise me you are not a spy first. Or do you still think I am a Brit Hater (even though I have ancestors who served in the RMF, RIC and QARNS).

GoneToTheCanner
1st April 2015, 20:58
If the CAV have all the steel, what are the boots left with? Mans and Scanias? No gun heavier than 12.7? Unless it's a short-ranged 40mm grenade launcher? No integrated artillery because the gunners are off minding their own empire elsewhere, so no mortar bigger than an 81mm, which means nothing can be hit out side a 4 or 5 km radius, in defence or attack? Are we not allowed to bring actual artillery on the road? Does anyone actually plan to ever bring the 105s (probably the most portable field gun ever built) overseas?

hptmurphy
1st April 2015, 21:04
@ FMP

I assume you now want to disband the mechanised infantry role ( best of luck with that one as the gravel agitators are going to be a might sickened)as you have used up every piece of armour in the country ,a signficant portion of which is actually deployed overseas as we speak as part of a composite unit, and given it takes a ratio of 1:3 to ensure the requirement for a car is retained you squadron will have no more that probably 15 AFVs/ APCs available to you at any one time. Those are the realities.

Now to the non productive pissing match..
The old concept of Cavalry is so far removed from it being a mounted infantry section, the roles being so diverse there is no comparrison.The basic make up was top heavy with NCOS and officers to highlight the diversity required.

Now back to the discussion.....If you were deploying your 'super' squadron in would be in line witha 'normal' brigade..we never had that to start with again everything being understrenght with each unit only having enough mobility to deploy a company at a time , never mind a Bn.
On paper it looks good but 30% of what you suggest would be a more realistic figure for one squadron.

I notice you neglect to include the LTAVs in anything other than the HQ where in fact part of the thinking behind them was to employ them in the role of deploying anti armour teams and snipers/ recce troops, another over looked asset being DR's again very valuable to troop commanders.

I base my arguments around my previous appointments as recce section cpl and sergeant and recce trp sgt:-D

I understand the conceptual nature but to tinge it with reality..as the lady said to the black feller...beaucoup too big!

hptmurphy
1st April 2015, 21:10
Cav operate so far forward, the only fires that they can call on would be 155/MLRS/air/naval. Even if you put a 105 in the middle on the FEBA, the Cav could be out of range.

This is why they had an AML 90, they didn't need fire support if the were engaged out of range but given the role was significantly changed and the support vehicle is now an MRV they won't put them selves out of range of their support.
Point being missed being the Cav primary role is largely redundant due to Recce teams whether they be SF/Medium or CRT, aerial recce or satellite imagery.

CRT was supposed to be based on teams inserted by LTAYs and withdrawl and support covered by MRVs....

spider pig
1st April 2015, 22:54
Eh.
No.
I was Cavalry. What's your excuse? You seem to have first understood, then completely misunderstood my post.
Mech infantry is infantry who walk less, and have vehicles in support instead of people with mortars and anti tank guns on their back.
Cavalry is (Here anyway) light armoured recce. I was using the soldier analogy to avoid enterin Opsec world.
I will send you a polite PM to explain our orbat here. Promise me you are not a spy first. Or do you still think I am a Brit Hater (even though I have ancestors who served in the RMF, RIC and QARNS).



What on earth are you talking about? Where did I imply you're a Brit hater? Or that I care?
I'm fully aware of how a Cav unit works
Maybe I'd did misread your comment but the way it came across to me was that you were talking abot mech infantry


Dev yes I know they have other roles as you've stated

DeV
2nd April 2015, 01:21
FMP,

As its says in the link, while the (Bde) Cav Sqn primary role is ISTAR, the tasks it can be assigned are extremely varied. Therefore you need a mixture of vehicles, equipment and weapons within the troop (and possibly section).

As I've stated, often the Cav elements will be outside the Bde's organic indirect fire assets (ie the 105s & 120s). Although they must have the ability to call fires in (be it air or arty (when within range). For this reason, the Cav Troop must have organic support weapons (primarily the main weapon(s) on their vehicles (and those carried within)). They also often will operate as a self contained troop by itself.

I would suggest that the LTAV is actually too small to carry a CTR/OP team (while also providing local security for the vehicle). For this reason, you need CRVs and/or MRVs in the recce troops.

The Cav Sqn OC must also have a reserve (also capable of being tasked independently), in the form of a Support Troop. There are various options - MRV (if the Recce Troops have CRVs), CRVs and/or APCs (if the Recce Troops have LTAVs). You could give them 81s but they will be of limited use (out of range).

We have issues with the amount of assets we have and their availability, but so does every other military.

In a LTAV, CRV and MRV, all the crew (2/3 personnel must be trained in each others jobs (it won't always happen unfortunately). You would want your CRV and MRV mounted DE trained in recce and other cav tactics plus 84/Javelin, where equipped. You then have a few snipers in one element in support. You can attach a FOO from the arty if necessary.

In order to retain all arms brigades, we need a suitable manned and equipped Cav Sqn in each of the 2 brigades (so that is in 2 locations only). You then pick which Cav Sqn is going to be the lead for the EUBG.

Your "force reserve" is actually merging 1 Armd Car Sqn, 1 Mech Coy (actually now 2 coys) and giving it a HQ. The DF is a small community and in some ways it would make a lot of sense to centralise the assets in the Cav but the raison d'ete of mech inf and cav are very different. Currently, 1 Mech Coy is the centre of expertise on the MOWAG they train everyone else in the DF.

1 ACS and 1 Mech aren't miles away from each other - it's probably a 5 minute walk! So if the Cav Sqns had MRVs & CRVs they are in 3 locations only.






Does anyone actually plan to ever bring the 105s (probably the most portable field gun ever built) overseas?
A Fd Arty Bty is on the palette of forces for the HHLG. Will it ever happen????







Point being missed being the Cav primary role is largely redundant due to Recce teams whether they be SF/Medium or CRT, aerial recce or satellite imagery.

CRT was supposed to be based on teams inserted by LTAYs and withdrawl and support covered by MRVs....

SF are the strategic level, Cav would be operational level. Medium recce & CTR are cav roles. Aerial recce (and satellites) can't see everything (UAVs are an arty asset).

hptmurphy
2nd April 2015, 20:41
SF are the strategic level, Cav would be operational level. Medium recce & CTR are cav roles. Aerial recce (and satellites) can't see everything (UAVs are an arty asset).

Traditional boundaries and empire retention being an obstacle that needs to be over come.


1 ACS and 1 Mech aren't miles away from each other - it's probably a 5 minute walk! So if the Cav Sqns had MRVs & CRVs they are in 3 locations only.

Which is fine as all the troops to be equipped should be in the same location. We know longer have a strategic reason for having units outside one main centre, having units spread throughout various locations is half the problem.

Again we don't need a two brigade army, we need a single brigade , fully manned and equipped and within in that would be a combined weapons unit either deployed or preparing to deploy in Bn sized units.


I would suggest that the LTAV is actually too small to carry a CTR/OP team (while also providing local security for the vehicle).

CTR teams we never supposed to have vehicles attached for the duration of an op and were supposed to be inserted and retrieve by the squadrons mainbody as opposed to having an independant vehicle attached.If the LTAV can't do that, ie carry four plus equipment..guess what..we bought the wrong vehicle as using an Piranha 3 or MRV to undertake this role is wasteful.

na grohmiti
2nd April 2015, 20:55
What on earth are you talking about? Where did I imply you're a Brit hater? Or that I care?
I'm fully aware of how a Cav unit works
Maybe I'd did misread your comment but the way it came across to me was that you were talking abot mech infantry


Dev yes I know they have other roles as you've stated

Was talking to FMP.

DeV
2nd April 2015, 21:40
Traditional boundaries and empire retention being an obstacle that needs to be over come.

Not really, the rarer and smaller the asset the higher op the foot chain it is deployed. Eg the Wing doesn't have a platoon for each infantry battalion. They are a strategic force multiplier therefore they are only deployed for the most strategic taskings, we cannot afford to deploy them as a standing patrol 1km in front.

The UAVs probably should be available to the Cav as well. But it does make sense to have them as an arty STA asset as well.



CTR teams we never supposed to have vehicles attached for the duration of an op and were supposed to be inserted and retrieve by the squadrons mainbody as opposed to having an independant vehicle attached.If the LTAV can't do that, ie carry four plus equipment..guess what..we bought the wrong vehicle as using an Piranha 3 or MRV to undertake this role is wasteful.

+1

LTAV is the wrong vehicle for dropping of a CTR (2 crew & 2 pax), it could do a static/mobile OP, escort, drop a sniper pair off etc

The real Jack
2nd April 2015, 22:26
This thread is desperately in need of PDF intervention...

DeV
2nd April 2015, 23:19
http://www.dfmagazine.ie/site-assets/uploads/Vol._70_No._8_-_Oct_2010.pdf
Page 17

From the MRVs and LTAVs the following are deployed:
- sniper team
- CTR team
- FOO team with AMSTAR radar and UAV
- Engineer Recce Team

paul g
3rd April 2015, 13:15
The Istar company was discussed at lenght in An Cosantoir in September 2012, detailing sub units and the vehicles attached to them.

What most of the debate misses is that the Cavalry squadrons are essentially a training units for the deployment of subunits overseas, and the vehicle pool reflects this. The only overseas deployments that exist for Cav are the Cavalry troop for the Recce Company of the infantry battalion ala Chad and Lebanon Mk 3 and the Istar Company ala Nordic and Deutch battalegroup.

Trying to shoo horn our vehicle requrements into the british doctrine misses the post that (A) we are unlikely to ever deploy a brigade in the field, ((B) that it ignores the way other states such as germany and in particlular france and the US carry out reconnaissance, and are now more influential than British thinking on the matter. What people arte doing is trying to make the british formation reconnaissance squadron as a model without realising that the squadron is designed for reconnaissance in front of an armoured brigade.

The Americans very kindly publish most of their field manuals online, (just google them) but if you read them you'll see that doctrine in ISTAR Company and the reconnaissiance element of the PSO infantry battalion is now closer to the US army stryker battalions, and the French Concept of GTIA is now more influential for overseas than british doctrine.

DeV
26th April 2015, 20:47
How many dismounts does the CRV & MRV hold?

Did I hear 6 and 4 or something like that ?

na grohmiti
26th April 2015, 21:36
How many dismounts does the CRV & MRV hold?

Did I hear 6 and 4 or something like that ?

Depends on who you heard it from.... #opsec

DeV
26th April 2015, 22:39
It was a public source (possibly An Cosantoir), PM if necessary

Slatts
27th April 2015, 17:39
From public sorces (photos and open days)

The CRV has 6 passenger seats and the MRV has 4.

CTU
27th April 2015, 19:36
It was a public source (possibly An Cosantoir), PM if necessary

Connect June 2014 poster.

http://digital.jmpublishing.ie/i/320307-a2-poster/0?

FMP
27th April 2015, 20:28
Only 4 x Dismounts in the CRV (+MRV)!! I'm not so crazy after all ;).

na grohmití, sorry I have not got back to you on your offer. No I'm not a spy and yes please I would like a look at the ORBAT :biggrin:.

DeV
27th April 2015, 20:56
Connect June 2014 poster.

http://digital.jmpublishing.ie/i/320307-a2-poster/0?

Many thanks

Could have sworn the CRV had more

DeV
27th April 2015, 21:53
IMHO, recce troops with a 50/50 mix within them of CRVs and MRVs is preferred with a Supp Tp of MRVs and a few LTAV ISRs in HQ troop

TangoSierra
27th April 2015, 22:23
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/04/the-30-millimeter-solution-army-upgunning-strykers-vs-russia/?utm_source=Breaking+Defense&utm_campaign=c098eb1efe-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4368933672-c098eb1efe-408236157

For those that are interested: there is a lot of info on Stryker BCTs out there on the internet. I would recommend the cavalry RSTA (ISTAR) cavalry squadron sections of the literature.

Incidentally, the US Stryker BCTs look more an more like someone in Europe read the doctrine an recoined it EUBG. Except

DeV
28th April 2015, 10:26
The U.S. Stryker RSTA Cav Sqn is equivalent to an Irish Cav Regt, so an Irish Cav Sqn is roughly equivalent to a U.S. Recce Tp.

Having looked at the TO&E, we should organise:

HQ Tp probably with LTAVs (liaison, sniper & UAV deployment, CBRN recce, etc).
Supp Tp with MRV (with FOO/MFC, Javelin capabilities)
Recce Tp with CRV (and mix with MRV if funds allow) (with min 84 (if not Javelin) and possibly 60 mortar carried)

paul g
28th April 2015, 10:36
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/04/the-30-millimeter-solution-army-upgunning-strykers-vs-russia/?utm_source=Breaking+Defense&utm_campaign=c098eb1efe-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4368933672-c098eb1efe-408236157

For those that are interested: there is a lot of info on Stryker BCTs out there on the internet. I would recommend the cavalry RSTA (ISTAR) cavalry squadron sections of the literature.

Incidentally, the US Stryker BCTs look more an more like someone in Europe read the doctrine an recoined it EUBG. Except

Except European countires like france had wheeled APC long before the americans, so its actually the other way around. And the Americans were also influenced a bit by soviet doctrine. The Stryker BCT concept comes largely from operations in the balkans from 1991-1999, and in particular the rush for Pristina airport. In fact the british are also looking a bit at soviet doctrine, their army 2020 light infantry company will have two regular infantry platoons, a reserve infantry platoon and a regular machine gun platoon with 6 GMPG, a bit like the 1989 soviet motor rifle company

As i said before Its all about overseas, you design your units and buy equipment in accordance with what you want to do. The state doesn't need to have a reconnaissance squadron so that it can locate invaders from the north, or lead a brigade across the border.

What it does need is an ISTAR company that can operate overseas in conjunction with other European armies, which it can keep on very high readiness alert for six months once a year. That it does have, and it knows how to organise it as well as i said look at An Cosantoir for September 2012.

TangoSierra
28th April 2015, 10:42
The U.S. Stryker RSTA Cav Sqn is equivalent to an Irish Cav Regt, so an Irish Cav Sqn is roughly equivalent to a U.S. Recce Tp.


And hence maybe that's a point worth focusing on. Does the current split organisation of the DF cavalry (maybe applies to the rest of the DF) fall below critical mass to offer any effective capability. Would amalgamation of both cav units and ACS into one unit offer better efficiencies and opportunities to develop capabilities?

The real Jack
28th April 2015, 11:12
Would amalgamation of both cav units and ACS into one unit offer better efficiencies and opportunities to develop capabilities?

There is a rumour doing the rounds that 1 Mech might be ditching berets in favour of Party Hats...

DeV
28th April 2015, 12:38
Except European countires like france had wheeled APC long before the americans, so its actually the other way around. And the Americans were also influenced a bit by soviet doctrine. The Stryker BCT concept comes largely from operations in the balkans from 1991-1999, and in particular the rush for Pristina airport. In fact the british are also looking a bit at soviet doctrine, their army 2020 light infantry company will have two regular infantry platoons, a reserve infantry platoon and a regular machine gun platoon with 6 GMPG, a bit like the 1989 soviet motor rifle company

As i said before Its all about overseas, you design your units and buy equipment in accordance with what you want to do. The state doesn't need to have a reconnaissance squadron so that it can locate invaders from the north, or lead a brigade across the border.

What it does need is an ISTAR company that can operate overseas in conjunction with other European armies, which it can keep on very high readiness alert for six months once a year. That it does have, and it knows how to organise it as well as i said look at An Cosantoir for September 2012.

The ISTAR Battlegroup contribution is task org'ed with assets from other corps. AFAIK it doesn't follow the lead unit principle.

I would agree to a point, a Cav Sqn should be the lead unit for an ISTAR EUBG contribution with other corps task org'ed in as required.

We have and need a DF organised for its primary mission, ie defence of the State, but also available for other roles. And in a light infantry all arms conventional format.

So say for example:
FHQ / BG HQ- provided by all Corps
ISTAR TF HQ - provided by all Corps
ISTAR Recce Coy - provided by lead Cav unit (Inf, Arty, Engr assets task org'ed in)
ISTAR Logs Coy - provided by all Corps
HUMINT Team - provided by all Corps
MP element - task org'ed in
Movecon element - provided by all Corps

http://www.forsvarsmakten.se/siteassets/english/nbg15---eng/140328-nbg-15-orbat-master-es.pdf



And hence maybe that's a point worth focusing on. Does the current split organisation of the DF cavalry (maybe applies to the rest of the DF) fall below critical mass to offer any effective capability. Would amalgamation of both cav units and ACS into one unit offer better efficiencies and opportunities to develop capabilities?
TBH I'd say get the 2 x Cav Sqns properly manned and equipped and then figure out if we can afford 1ACS - bearing in mind it is supposed to be a Combat asset.

The CRVs and MRVs would need to be taken out of 1ACS to supplement a new order being placed.

Do you then keep 1ACS?
What do you equip them with?

Truck Driver
28th April 2015, 13:01
There is a rumour doing the rounds that 1 Mech might be ditching berets in favour of Party Hats...

Ha... Would doubt that one - I'd say it's someone floating a kite...

DeV
1st May 2015, 22:29
Found a bit on the LTAV:
http://www.dfmagazine.ie/site-assets/uploads/Vol._70_No._5_-_Jun_2010.pdf (Page 18)

http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/Release+ID/2B3A26A41BBA3376802574C90036C87C?OpenDocument

http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/fba727373c93a4f080256c53004d976e/2d3f7aaec4efca2d802574440031a060/$FILE/RFT.doc

http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/0/9AFA5F99BAE5152380257571005C2DA1/$file/RFT+STA+Suite.doc

http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/fba727373c93a4f080256c53004d976e/9afa5f99bae5152380257571005c2da1/$FILE/QUESTIONS%20AND%20ANSWERS%20RELATING%20%20TO%20THE %20TENDER%20COMPETITION%20FOR%20STA%20SUITE.doc

http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/fba727373c93a4f080256c53004d976e/2d3f7aaec4efca2d802574440031a060/$FILE/Q&A.doc

GoneToTheCanner
2nd May 2015, 17:24
Suggestion: bring a bigger gun.

TerryD1957
5th May 2015, 20:21
IF it is to be a somewhat "real" armoured cavalry squadron----a battalion sized unit----- (as opposed to a cav troop) and the "teeth of the army" (as the military.ie site claims), then:


4 tank platoons of 4 CV-90-105's each. Attach an infantry platoon with 4 Mowag III Piranha's, some Javelin mounted LATV's, etc.. A legitimate tank troop/coy.

A headquarters coy/troop with 2 CV-90 command vehicles, 2 recovery vehicles, 4 LATV's, an ambulance Mowag and some repair vehicles.

A recce platoon with 4 CRV's, 4 LATV's and 16 dismounts.

An infantry coy with 120 troops and 16 Mowag Paranha III's. (attach the existing 1st Mechanised Infantry Coy).

A mobile artillery battery of 2 towed 105's and 2-4 vehicles mounting 81 mm and/or 120 mm mortars.

Even that will be a "armoured cavalry squadron lite" compared to an American Armored Cavalry Squadron TOE.

But it would be a legitimate armoured reserve force to back up the infantry battalions and the cavalry squadrons.

Of course, that would take a government investment into the purchase of CV-90's and some additional Mowags, so it probably won't happen.

It would be a nice formation, though. A real strategic reserve for Army command.

DeV
17th April 2019, 20:06
US view on Cav

https://companyleader.themilitaryleader.com/2019/04/12/whats-so-hard-about-cavalry-anyway/

Graylion
21st July 2019, 11:17
What equipment is there for ISTAR other then Mk1 human eyeball? I see no mention of any acquisition of SIGINT/COMINT/optronics/radar/extendable masts/ESM/C-ESM etc?