View Full Version : Helicopters, how many??

16th February 2004, 23:40
Just to get away from fighters for a while, before I throw up!!
It looks like the Irish Air Corps is going to get troop transports, at long last.
So, I got a question, well several questions really:
1] How many bodies, minimum, is the desired amount to land in the LZ,[hot or cold] in the initial phase?
2] How many for follow up waves?
3] Now , how many helicopters of different types[including spares] to make this happen?
4] Finally, what about heavy wepons support and Casevac[spellin?]?

17th February 2004, 02:04
What kind of planes they getting?

17th February 2004, 10:50
Turkey, do you know something the rest of us don't (or maybe I'm the only one that doesn't know)?


17th February 2004, 22:59
I reckon I should have put the word 'helicopter' in the second line of the opening post.
IAS, I have only heard a couple of strong rumours, from different sources, both known, in the past, to be realible, concerning a possable Blackhawk lease/purchase offer which has generated some considerable intrest withen the IAC.

18th February 2004, 01:22
Historically, Ireland has tried to steer clear of Defence Contracts with the US and it has adopted a generally European line on Defence contracts so it is interesting to hear that a Blackhawk is being considered. Of course Blackhawks aren't known as such in their export form so I wonder could we give them a name like a Greenhawk!!!...but seriously I thought the contract would go to Eurocopter (Cougar EC 725). When the AC goes to get replacements for the Alouettes and Gazelles, wouldn't Eurocopter be the only place they could go (EC 635 etc.). So would a medium lift aircraft from Eurocopter in conjunction with an order for the new smaller choppers not make financial sense. Also replace the 5 Dauphins with 1/2 Panthers in naval configuration to give the NS via the LE Eithne a limited SAR Role???
Personally I would opt for Eurocopter versus Sikorsky because if you think about it, The GASU use them also and the AC has had a good history with them.

18th February 2004, 11:52
Originally posted by Harry
Of course Blackhawks aren't known as such in their export form so I wonder could we give them a name like a Greenhawk!!!...

The Mk. 1 Shitehawk...

18th February 2004, 15:39
Enough to lift a company in one wave (ie 3/4 medium lift helicopters)

The minimum possible number of types of aircraft should be purchased, become a jack of all trades, taking account of economies of scale in purchase of aircraft and spares, don't need to buy more simulators etc, easy of training, easy of rostering

My answer:
Replace Gazelle and Alouette with a small number of lighter helicopters (3/4) for training, ATCP, escorts, surveillance, CASEVAC, using either of Garda helicopters as baises of decision

Replace Dauphins with a number of medium lift helicopters (5-12) for SAR, troop transport etc

18th February 2004, 19:17
Where have you been.The Air corp will be out of SAR in the near future, and according to the minister of defence that decision will not be revisited.The proposed tender if for light utility heli's,the Blackhawk is classed as a medium lift heli.

18th February 2004, 20:59
blackhawk is classed as a utility heli with the US army but then thats the US army.

There is still the requirement for the 2 medium lift helis for the army. Smith hasnt cancelled that (YET). The best option has to be for a single airframe. 8-10 blackhawks would serve Ireland well for decades and provide back up SAR etc etc

19th February 2004, 00:10
You're right Vmax, but that is a sore subject

The Thing
19th February 2004, 12:16
Yes we should strongly consider Black hawks 8-10 would be ideal 10-14 would be even better.
What training helicopter would the Government buy would they retain the Gazelle?

20th February 2004, 15:53
If these helicopters were to be deployed operationally aborad, what would they use for close defence / LZ suppression?

20th February 2004, 21:24
if they got 10 Black hawks it really would be a boost for the DF. Its totally unrealistic to expect to see any more than that! Personally I can imagine the likes of the squirrel coming into the picture as a replacement :(

Goldie fish
20th February 2004, 22:22
Oddly enough,the MIL helicopters have been used by irish forces in a number of overseas missions lately. Could the Mil Mi8 or Mi 17 be considered?

ex pat 007
20th February 2004, 22:56
The poles manage to operate with coalition forces just fine in Iraq so I'd imagine there should be no real problem with regard to interoperability.Spare parts and such shouldnt be that hard to get from ex sov bloc countries.

Goldie fish
20th February 2004, 23:49
There was an israeli comany providing conversion kits to western avionic standards

29th February 2004, 22:49
Goldie, could you see the Irish Government doing what could be a high profile deal with the Israelis? It would not be possable to keep it out of the media.
I have posted the opening post on franks site as well, to see what appears there.

29th February 2004, 23:14
Can anyone give a time frame as to when the tender will go out? I havent seen any articles naming possible replacements since Smith's speech that the tender was going out.

Once it goes to tender whatever best cheapest capable heli has to win. Anything else would breach EU tendering rules. The US firms defintely have a better chance in winning the tender.

Goldie fish
1st March 2004, 00:23
Would Leasing be a faster lead in time in the short term,while waiting for a drawn out tender process?

1st March 2004, 00:28
Goldie, I think leasing could avoid the tendering process altogether, just by altering the lease to lease to buy when a firm decision had been made to buy, but I would not swear to that.

3rd March 2004, 04:44
So Turkey what's the scoop?

Also I don't believe that leasing versus purchase changes anything as far the legal issues about contract tendering.

Is this being kept top secret or what?

Big Al
3rd March 2004, 11:04
I think even if you lease you have to tender for the lease, if you know what i mean.

3rd March 2004, 21:02
The naval option has long gone...it may never enter the equation again

Goldie fish
4th March 2004, 11:43
The arrival of the CASA removed the Need for the Shipboard Heli in Irish service.

4th March 2004, 18:22
Flight international is reporting that the Air Corps is shortly to tender for 'up to six' LUH.

And I should stress 'LUH', this means something in the A109/EC135 class, not UH-60 or A139.

4th March 2004, 18:34
The minister in his recent question session said it'd be taking place in a few weeks, and the quantity was 4-6.

Goldie fish
4th March 2004, 19:00
I guess when you think about it, six big helis is better than 15 small ones.......isn't it?

5th March 2004, 23:12
Why not refit the eithne to take UAVs ....these could doe the same job with minimal rsk and at a fraction of the cost?

6th March 2004, 12:21
The tender will be for LIGHT UTILITY HELI'S.Accordind to last weeks Flight International six will be ordered.

Goldie fish
6th March 2004, 12:46
Originally it was reccomended that the 15 assorted type helis be replaced with 8 single type. Considering the workload involved with those helis,and the downtime,6 is below the minimum requirment....unless they are planning to continue with the Medium Lift plan....

6th March 2004, 15:42
I believe that 'Light' is not included in the phraseology of the Tender and that it will be for six, but a possible mixed bag of light and light/medium could be on the cards which might leave the yanks high and dry.

Goldie fish
6th March 2004, 16:00
Hate to repeat others,but it seems the powers that be feel it is in the best interest of the Defence forces to be familiar with operating from Troop Transport Helis BEFORE going overseas.....
and I have heard that from a source independant from the boards... and on a totally unconnected point..here is a lovely photo....

6th March 2004, 18:07
oh imagine that with an IAC roundel on her!

6th March 2004, 22:39
Yeah I agree with Goldie, interoperaibilty is an very important factor.

I think the Blackhawk has to be the best on market. It would serve the country for decades to come.

Personally I think the DOD should scratch the 2 medium lift helis and go for 8 blackhawks.

Great pic by the way!!

7th March 2004, 01:29
Eh H-60s are MLHs, so if we got them we'd still only have budgeted fopr two, unless you were looking at procuring 2nd hand models with out the required avionics for night and bad weather operations, which for us would be useless and the most you'd get would be four for the price of two Cougars

mutter nutter
10th March 2004, 09:38
Systematic failure in the Black Hawk


WASHINGTON [MENL] -- The U.S. military has identified a systematic failure in the Black Hawk utility helicopter, a staple in many Middle East militaries.

The U.S. Navy cited a series of problems in the new Black Hawk ordered by the service. They include cracks that could result in frame damage as well as the penchant for the helicopter's cargo berth to open in mid-flight.

As a result, the military has delayed acceptance of the new Black Hawk as well as a variant, the MH-60S, or Sierra, helicopter, an amalgam of the UH-60L Black Hawk helicopter and its Navy variant, the SH-60B Seahawk. All of these platforms are manufactured by Sikorsky.

The Feb. 24 navy report cited a series of problems with the MH-60, built for both the army and navy. They included stripped bolts, leaking gearboxes, and insufficiently tightened bolts. Another problem cited was a mix-up of parts.

12th March 2004, 21:11
and shark attacks were another problem

12th March 2004, 22:51
OMG is that picture real?

13th March 2004, 01:40

Goldie fish
13th March 2004, 11:19
Originally posted by kermit

13th March 2004, 20:10
Errrr, Goldie, our Cessana's are Reims Rocket 172's, they never saw the Yew Ssssss Ah. :D

Goldie fish
13th March 2004, 22:03
I thought only one was a Rheims and the rest were yankee..or else its the other way around..(I knew I would be pulled on that by an aerosexual)

13th March 2004, 22:07
Goldie.........pulled on that by a what!!!!!?????
WTF can I not give u points????????
As far as I can remember the replacement one was Reims rocket too.......Must ask Frank. :D

14th March 2004, 14:44
The 172's (Rockets) were all built under licence by Reims aviation at Reims France.Hence the model No'sFR.172H & FR.172K

15th March 2004, 12:15
Interesting information on the performance of the S-70A, even an estimates of direct operating costs.


2nd April 2004, 15:56
Taken from another board, why does the Irish Gov not step in to pick some of this equipment, both for the Aer Corp and Army

Massive british defence cuts

Five RAF bases to close in £1bn cuts
By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 02/04/2004)

The Ministry of Defence is planning the biggest cuts in Armed Forces' equipment for decades as part of attempts to save more than £1 billion from the defence budget.

Five RAF bases are to go, with the scrapping of all the RAF's 62 ground-attack Jaguars, all its 79 ground-attack GR7 Harriers and all its 39 Puma helicopters.

The Royal Navy will lose the two carriers Illustrious and Invincible, at least two frigates and its 88 Sea King helicopters, and close four naval storage bases.

The Army will have to close a number of camps on the Salisbury Plain training area and axe at least 50 Challenger 2 tanks, 50 Warrior armoured personnel carriers and all 118 of its Gazelle helicopters.

The cuts are so wide-reaching that ministers are planning to hold back the announcement of some until after a general election.