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na grohmiti
14th March 2017, 06:45
Examiner.ie reporting a search is underway for the Dublin based Rescue 116 coastguard helicopter. Contact was lost around 1am as the aircraft was off the West coast heading to assist colleagues on medevac.

Sparky42
14th March 2017, 06:53
It's being reported on all the news apps now.

DeV
14th March 2017, 07:06
Here's praying they are found safe and well

Sparky42
14th March 2017, 07:19
Here's praying they are found safe and well

I think we all hope so, I'm just worried that it's so long since the crash with no word.

Sparky42
14th March 2017, 07:58
This doesn't sound good:

Tony McNamara, lifeboat operations manager in Achill told TheJournal.ie their boat was on scene at 2.15am.

“Conditions are reasonable. It was a moonlit night last night so it wasn’t so bed. It’s daylight now, which makes it easier for them.”

McNamara said “quite a bit of debris” could be seen in the water at the scene early this morning.

Jetjock
14th March 2017, 08:00
7 hours now. Marine Traffic showing a search concentrated north of Achill.

DeV
14th March 2017, 08:02
1 found in critical condition

DeV
14th March 2017, 08:29
IRCG don't hold out much hope for the crew (including the survivor who was found). Let's hope they are wrong.

It was on its way into Blacksod Lighthouse to refuel prior to heading out to sea

Sparky42
14th March 2017, 08:33
IRCG don't hold out much hope for the crew (including the survivor who was found). Let's hope they are wrong.

It was on its way into Blacksod Lighthouse to refuel prior to heading out to sea

Rough year for IRCG, helicopter crashes are always nasty. Would it be wrong of me to ask why fly the Dublin 92 over and have to refuel it, rather than have the CASA provide Top Cover?

johnharry
14th March 2017, 08:53
Prayers with all crew and family

Jetjock
14th March 2017, 09:45
Questions will be asked in time. I did hear Charlie 253 (I think) on freq while on my last sector yesterday at 4pm. It may have been an availability issue.
I have always found the concept of a helicopter providing top cover for a helicopter as strange. Unfortunately it takes a major loss of life in this country to embarrass politicians into providing suitable equipment in suitable numbers.

Turkey
14th March 2017, 10:09
It is very important not to speculate at this time, just keep with known facts and nothing else....

Sparky42
14th March 2017, 15:00
The recovered member Captain Dara Fitzpatrick has died. RIP
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/first-victim-of-coast-guard-helicopter-crash-named-as-dara-fitzpatrick-1.3009721

Graylion
14th March 2017, 15:06
There was this issue, but that looks like it was properly handled: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/no-issues-for-coast-guard-helicopters-after-safety-checks-1.2931981

pym
14th March 2017, 15:07
Rest in Peace

Thoughts with the family, colleagues and friends of the crew.

Sparky42
14th March 2017, 15:14
Rest In Peace doesn't seem enough for the crew given all the wonderful rescues they've been involved in.

pym
14th March 2017, 15:19
Rest In Peace doesn't seem enough for the crew given all the wonderful rescues they've been involved in.

Absolutely. Their courage and professionalism - when you saw them go about their work, you'd almost think it was routine, but they're absolute pro's undertaking an incredibly difficult and dangerous job every day of the week.

I cannot imagine what their fellow CG members are going through at the moment, doing their job again, but this time it's their colleagues and friends they're searching for.

morpheus
14th March 2017, 15:37
RIP

DeV
14th March 2017, 15:49
RIP

Graylion
14th March 2017, 15:55
RIP

Liachta Cultaca
14th March 2017, 16:55
Rest in Peace

sofa
14th March 2017, 17:38
RIP

Shaqra
14th March 2017, 17:46
RIP - a sad, sad day.

koppiteal
14th March 2017, 17:51
RIP

restless
14th March 2017, 17:58
As an IRCG volunteer down on the south coast, i would like to extend my deepest sympathies to the Fitzptrick family and indeed to the families of all the crew members of R116, our thoughts are also with our colleagues on the ground who are faced with this sad recovery. rest in peace.

Herald
14th March 2017, 18:00
RIP.

CTU
14th March 2017, 18:15
RIP.

Flamingo
14th March 2017, 19:18
Very sad news. RIP

restless
14th March 2017, 19:53
Shocking visuals on the news of what can only be described as fragments of fuselage being brought ashore. obviously a catastrophic failure, the very fact that crew diddnt activate any of their epirbs is telling. even the on board beacons never activated apparently. very strange and i would imagine a first for rescue services worldwide.

Sparky42
14th March 2017, 20:29
Shocking visuals on the news of what can only be described as fragments of fuselage being brought ashore. obviously a catastrophic failure, the very fact that crew diddnt activate any of their epirbs is telling. even the on board beacons never activated apparently. very strange and i would imagine a first for rescue services worldwide.

I was thinking the same thing, though of course we'll have to wait to see with the investigation, just hope the black boxes aren't damaged from whatever happened.

apod
14th March 2017, 20:31
RIP.

GoneToTheCanner
14th March 2017, 20:41
The black boxes would be designed to survive a water landing and should "ping" for a month, provided they activated.......I met Dara Fitzpatrick once at an Open day and she gave me and my friends a very comprehensive tour of the S92. May she and her colleagues rest in peace.

danno
14th March 2017, 21:31
Shocking news, RIP.

expat01
15th March 2017, 14:24
RIP. Very sad news.

Medsailor
15th March 2017, 14:35
As I've already posted elsewhere, all SAR professionals the world over share in your grief. So that others may live comes at a bitter cost sometimes. Rest easy Rescue 116.

HavocIRL
15th March 2017, 16:32
I'm not that familiar with the equipment that these crews would be wearing to deal with a water crash landing. Would they have access to life rafts? Cold weather survival suits?

DeV
15th March 2017, 16:54
They would more than likely be in immersion suits with life jackets and EPRIBs.

The aircraft had ELTs.

Sparky42
15th March 2017, 17:07
Reports that the Black Box beacons have been detected:
http://www.independent.ie/incoming/black-box-from-rescue-116-detected-by-investigators-35534777.html

DeV
15th March 2017, 19:44
One winchman is former AC

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/profiles-the-lives-of-the-four-crew-members-of-rescue-116-781725.html

pym
15th March 2017, 21:37
Granuaile is on its way to the location now. Hopefully this indicates that they have found the main wreckage.

I think it's notable that at least as a state we now possess the resources to cope with a complex rescue and recovery operation like this ourselves, which probably wasn't the case in past decades. Helicopters and planes with sophisticated sensors & long endurance, ships with the required survey, sonar recovery equipment, ROV's etc.

Hoping they recover the remaining crew members soon.

danno
15th March 2017, 21:46
Even fishermen with light and camera booms on the trawling gear and very sensitive sonar are an asset in these dreadful events.

na grohmiti
16th March 2017, 07:55
Hearing reports confirmed this morning that air corps Casa was requested to do top cover on the op r116 was lost on. Air corps declined coast guard request due to crew availability issues. More to follow.

Truck Driver
16th March 2017, 08:07
Hearing reports confirmed this morning that air corps Casa was requested to do top cover on the op r116 was lost on. Air corps declined coast guard request due to crew availability issues. More to follow.

Bloody hell

CTU
16th March 2017, 08:44
Hearing reports confirmed this morning that air corps Casa was requested to do top cover on the op r116 was lost on. Air corps declined coast guard request due to crew availability issues. More to follow.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0316/860130-coastguard-helicopter-search/


Meanwhile, the Defence Forces has confirmed a request for it to provide top cover in the mission Rescue 116 subsequently crashed on, was logged at 10:06pm on Monday night, but the Air Corps was not able to carry out the mission as its fixed-wing aircraft was unavailable.

The request was denied due to the fact it was outside normal hours and there was a lack of "experienced personnel" available.
*

morpheus
16th March 2017, 08:47
At least the military was defended on Newstalk - they pointed the finger at funding and resourcing by department of defence as a reason for loss of key staff and operational knock on effects. i'm shocked and saddened but the budget BS and penny pinching as been going on for too long now. Ill bet the lads and lassies in the AC, especially on the CASA teams will feel pretty down and angry right now, I hope some f***ers in govt are choking on coffee and biscuits this morning. What can you expect from a country without even a full department of defence or full minister - says it all about how seriously our elected gods take the defence protection and support of our nation.

The real Jack
16th March 2017, 08:56
If the AC had €50m a year to do SAR there'd be reasons to be upset about lack of top cover. CHC decided when tendering that heli top cover was suitable, if not we'd be paying another €10m for them to do so.

Jetjock
16th March 2017, 09:06
Bloody hell

Surely it's not surprising?

Jetjock
16th March 2017, 09:07
At least the military was defended on Newstalk - they pointed the finger at funding and resourcing by department of defence as a reason for loss of key staff and operational knock on effects. i'm shocked and saddened but the budget BS and penny pinching as been going on for too long now. Ill bet the lads and lassies in the AC, especially on the CASA teams will feel pretty down and angry right now.

The coverage was quite balanced in fairness.

DeV
16th March 2017, 10:10
The decision to proceed on any mission is the crews at the end of the day, if they are happy with helo TC...

This isn't just a matter of budget cutbacks etc (although I doubt they have helped), since at least the 90s personnel availability has been an issue for the AC.

na grohmiti
16th March 2017, 11:41
Don't declare yourself as an SAR asset unless you can commit to a 24/7 service.

ibenji
16th March 2017, 12:38
Some services should not be privatised and this is one of them. What level of service could the aer core provide if it had an additional 50 million a year for 10 years.

Sparky42
16th March 2017, 12:51
Some services should not be privatised and this is one of them. What level of service could the aer core provide if it had an additional 50 million a year for 10 years.

You so sure that Finance would have signed off on the 92's if it was the AC asking for it?

DeV
16th March 2017, 13:40
Don't declare yourself as an SAR asset unless you can commit to a 24/7 service.

Which is why no AC aircraft has ever been a declared asset

The MOU between the IRCG and DF (see 6.4)

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/ircg-liaison-agreements-and-mous/dept-defence-sla.pdf

ibenji
16th March 2017, 14:36
You so sure that Finance would have signed off on the 92's if it was the AC asking for it?

Of course not. Why would the department of finance do anything that actually makes sense. They are the only section of the public service to get a pmds rating of 4 / 5 which they ignored what was happening in the boom times. The benefits of PPP's have not materialised especially for ireland

trellheim
16th March 2017, 15:17
Remain on topic or be instabanned with no warning. Open another thread if you want to discuss

sofa
16th March 2017, 18:39
Aer Corp had a Casa in the air by 4.30am to look for the missing aircraft.

Sparky42
16th March 2017, 19:08
Aer Corp had a Casa in the air by 4.30am to look for the missing aircraft.

Different situation compared to when they weer asked to provide for Top Cover I guess.

ropebag
16th March 2017, 19:57
Aer Corp had a Casa in the air by 4.30am to look for the missing aircraft.

four hours after the aircraft went into the sea, and from a point more than 200km away - fantastic, are you ready to repel the Normans?

EUFighter
16th March 2017, 20:12
The AC responded as best it could, it is not on 24hr standby, they put emergency plans into action and got people back to be able to launch the CASA. Although it shows some of the weakness in our system the main concern should first be recovery of the missing and finding out what happened to cause this tragic event. One of the key questions will be are the rest of the S92 fleet safe as they are still being crewed by brave men and women providing SAR around our shores. Once we know what happened then will be the time to see how we can improve the situation and hopefully avoid another such loss.

ropebag
16th March 2017, 20:45
The AC responded as best it could, it is not on 24hr standby, they put emergency plans into action and got people back to be able to launch the CASA...

the first request for assistance was at around 10pm, for a rescue waaaaaaaay the hell out into the North Atlantic, at night, in March. even if they were not able to generate an aircraft immediately the alarms should have gone off that an aircraft was required - not least because 50% of the IRCG assets were involved in this rescue and unavailable for operations elsewhere. it then took them 6 hours to generate an 'emergency' response - does 'emergency' have a different meaning in the AC from the rest of the English speaking world?


Although it shows some of the weakness in our system the main concern should first be recovery of the missing and finding out what happened to cause this tragic event. One of the key questions will be are the rest of the S92 fleet safe as they are still being crewed by brave men and women providing SAR around our shores. Once we know what happened then will be the time to see how we can improve the situation and hopefully avoid another such loss.

no, the immediate priority to to address the capability gaps thrown into sharp relief by this tragedy - the cause of this could be anything, and it could be months before its known. we know that the top cover and emergency response capabilities are woefully inadaquate and there are things that could be done to adress that tomorow morning, we won't know if a seagull went to the engine or the FADEC failed, or a gearbox exploded until the FDR and CVR are retreived at the very least, and quite possibly until the wreckage is recovered from the sea floor.

it is quite possible, likely perhaps, that in this instance the circumstances of the aircraft loss meant that the ability to react to an emergency was entirely irrelevent to whether lives would be lost or not, but we can see that in different circumstances the inability to react and to do so quickly might well be the difference between saving lives and recovering bodies.

RIP, its bloody sad.

Smithy
16th March 2017, 20:51
I would contrast the Air Corps response to the Naval Service response. The NS has ships at sea with way bigger crews than any Air Corps plane - always! Strength for strength the NS is a much more efficient service.

DeV
16th March 2017, 20:54
four hours after the aircraft went into the sea, and from a point more than 200km away - fantastic, are you ready to repel the Normans?

I think the point he is making is that IRCG required top cover for the MEDEVAC quickly and no aircraft was available

A missing helo would of course be a very different kettle of fish with much higher priority. Even with that level of priority it took a number of hours.

Remember a helo has a reaction time of 15/45 mins. When the RAF had Nimrods their reaction time for TC was 1 hour (with RAF levels of crewing, aircraft numbers and resources.

EUFighter
16th March 2017, 21:12
the first request for assistance was at around 10pm, for a rescue waaaaaaaay the hell out into the North Atlantic, at night, in March. even if they were not able to generate an aircraft immediately the alarms should have gone off that an aircraft was required - not least because 50% of the IRCG assets were involved in this rescue and unavailable for operations elsewhere. it then took them 6 hours to generate an 'emergency' response - does 'emergency' have a different meaning in the AC from the rest of the English speaking world?



no, the immediate priority to to address the capability gaps thrown into sharp relief by this tragedy - the cause of this could be anything, and it could be months before its known. we know that the top cover and emergency response capabilities are woefully inadaquate and there are things that could be done to adress that tomorow morning, we won't know if a seagull went to the engine or the FADEC failed, or a gearbox exploded until the FDR and CVR are retreived at the very least, and quite possibly until the wreckage is recovered from the sea floor.

it is quite possible, likely perhaps, that in this instance the circumstances of the aircraft loss meant that the ability to react to an emergency was entirely irrelevent to whether lives would be lost or not, but we can see that in different circumstances the inability to react and to do so quickly might well be the difference between saving lives and recovering bodies.

RIP, its bloody sad.

You need to get you timelines together before making such statements.
2140 ICG Centre in Malin Head receives distress call from fishing boat 240km off the coast.
2200 ICG request AC top cover, none was available at the time so the Dublin helicopter was tasked to assist.
0045 ICG receives message from Rescue 116 it is about to land to refuel at Blacksod
0100 ATC report loss of contact to Rescue 116 and emergency is declared.
0420 AC CASA is airborne.

It did not take 6 hours to respond as the incident only became the emergency once Rescue 116 went down. That another heli provides cover is standard practice and if nothing had happen most people would not be saying anything. Before anyone jumps to conclusions we need to find out what happened. As for our SAR capability this will not be affected in the short term as CHC has already allocated an aircraft to replace Rescue 116. That is why now the first task is to recover the missing crew and FDR/CVR. To find out what happened and then to see what need to happen.

This tragic event should not be taken to begin yet another inter-service bashing game. The services and I include the CG in the list can and do work effectively together.

ropebag
16th March 2017, 22:10
You should learn to read, and then to count.

Look at the timeline you yourself provide - six and a half hours between the AC being told that a major operation was ongoing 200+km off the west coast involving 50% of the total IRCG aviation assets and an aircraft being ready to leave the ground.

Where do these people do their taxi driving sideline - Cardiff?

danno
16th March 2017, 23:29
Steady on, The AC do provide T/C when possible, in this instance the T/C request was declined straight up to avoid any faffing about as what happened in the organ transport fiasco. Having so declined the A/C had no further role until informed of the loss at 1.30 and thus got mobilised within 2.5 hours or so. Referring to 50% commitment by the Cg is meaningless given that every tasking will involve 25% of the unit and only becomes 50% if the Ac decline to do top cover. There have been instances when the Cg have put 75% of their force into a single incident.
Is not the GASU on a 24/7 basis.

Orion
16th March 2017, 23:54
You should learn to read, and then to count.

Look at the timeline you yourself provide - six and a half hours between the AC being told that a major operation was ongoing 200+km off the west coast involving 50% of the total IRCG aviation assets and an aircraft being ready to leave the ground.

Where do these people do their taxi driving sideline - Cardiff?

I get your commitment to your point but perhaps you should take some time to reflect on your comments .....

Laners
17th March 2017, 06:36
Could someone clarify if 116 was on it's way to the rescue or returning from it , just curious as to why it was out over Black Rock coming in for a landing at Blacksod after having just passed it if it was coming from Dublin .

EUFighter
17th March 2017, 06:50
Could someone clarify if 116 was on it's way to the rescue or returning from it , just curious as to why it was out over Black Rock coming in for a landing at Blacksod after having just passed it if it was coming from Dublin .

It was on the way there and had turned to land at Blacksod. I too am curious why it went out over Blackrock, does someone have any details on the standard approach into Blacksod ?

danno
17th March 2017, 07:44
Has anyone been able to capture the ais track of r116 and maybe put it up?

DeV
17th March 2017, 08:11
84018402
Has anyone been able to capture the ais track of r116 and maybe put it up?

pym
17th March 2017, 13:59
R116 may have flown beyond Blacksod for direct VHF comms with the Sligo S92 crew, which was already out over the Atlantic, in order to get an update on the situation.

The Sligo S92 had to press on with its own mission and got back to the scene at Blackrock at approx 02:10z. It must have been running very tight on fuel, but it stayed on until approx 03:00z when it was relieved by the Shannon S92 which was up at approx 02:05z.

The first of the RNLI vessels arrived on scene at approx 02:35z.

Casa crews know what its like to be out low over the atlantic at night and suffer an emergency e.g. engine failure. Once they had been alerted to the loss, right now I can't believe anything other than that they would have moved heaven and earth to get airborne and assist. But there's no two ways about it - it took a long time and no doubt that is going to be part of the investigation and changes will be recommended. We know the aircraft are getting on, we know the Air Corps doesn't possess a multi engine training aircraft anymore and we know C252 wasn't available on the day.

From AIS, C253's movements on the day all approximate:

From AIS C253
Up approx 04:25z
On scene 05:15z
Dept scene 09:10z
===============
Up approx (2) 11:35z
On scene (2) 12:30z
Dept (2) 18:20z

na grohmiti
17th March 2017, 14:07
I would be reclucant to criticise Air Corps crew in this event. The situation is not of their making. However Air Corps management have permitted this situation to happen.
They need to ask themselves:

What is the Role of the Casa Maritime Patrol Aircraft?
Is it the most suitable top cover aircraft?
Is it possible to have a fixed wing search/top cover aircraft available 24/7
If not, what is the point of having one?

pym
17th March 2017, 14:13
I would be reclucant to criticise Air Corps crew in this event. The situation is not of their making. However Air Corps management have permitted this situation to happen.
They need to ask themselves:

What is the Role of the Casa Maritime Patrol Aircraft?
Is it the most suitable top cover aircraft?
Is it possible to have a fixed wing search/top cover aircraft available 24/7
If not, what is the point of having one?


I think all of those questions are going to have to be satisfactorily answered before any government gives a green light to any potential Casa replacement tender.

danno
17th March 2017, 15:03
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/faults-discovered-in-air-corps-maritime-patrol-planes-1.2914983

Regardless of ATC--Crewing etc 24/7 cover is not guaranteed.

ropebag
17th March 2017, 16:14
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/faults-discovered-in-air-corps-maritime-patrol-planes-1.2914983

Regardless of ATC--Crewing etc 24/7 cover is not guaranteed.

Yes, I'm not *entirely* sure that highlighting that the two CASA's were grounded for four weeks while components were removed, sent to Spain, fixed and then returned - instead of insisting that replacement parts were sent out from Spain is helping the the PR effort...

The fact remains that either the AC knew it would be required to generate an aircraft and did nothing about it for 3 hours, and then when it tried it took them 3 hours to find a qualified crew, or it took them 6 hours to find a qualified crew.

Which of those alternatives do you find more comforting?

Shaqra
17th March 2017, 19:17
I'm not convinced that it is either seemly or respectful to the memories of the crew of Rescue 116 that this thread should have degenerated into an AC slagging exercise but the comments here cannot go unanswered. I for one am not blind to the faults of the AC - both organisationally and culturally - but the key point about Top Cover is being missed by a country mile. CHC, as a commercial organisation, entered into a contract for service where Top Cover is their responsibility. The DOU with the AC does not mandate that the AC provide Top Cover, it merely commits them to assist on a 'best efforts' basis. To blame the AC, or more specifically in the case of Ropebag's comments, to blame specific AC personnel is very, very wide of the mark.

I would, in the first instance, be asking the question of CHC ownership and management whether their TC arrangements are fit for purpose.

However at this point we don't know what caused Rescue 116 to crash - we don't know if fixed wing TC would have helped. I would suggest that we leave the finger pointing until after the missing crew have been recovered, the report is concluded and the causes of the crash are known.

In the meantime however I would suggest that CHC management need to review the TC arrangements they have put in place. It is a commercial contract won by public tender. I am sure the costing of TC featured in their pricing case.

ropebag
17th March 2017, 19:42
...CHC, as a commercial organisation, entered into a contract for service where Top Cover is their responsibility.

..I would, in the first instance, be asking the question of CHC ownership and management whether their TC arrangements are fit for purpose.

...In the meantime however I would suggest that CHC management need to review the TC arrangements they have put in place. It is a commercial contract won by public tender. I am sure the costing of TC featured in their pricing case.

if we assume you are correct, and i've no reason to believe otherwise - where are the Irish Government lawyers who should be breathing down CHC's neck for failing to honour their side off the deal?

where is the minister standing up in the Dail and telling TD's that the Government has suspended payments to CHC for failing to provide the agreed service the Government is paying for?

if CHC is supposed to be providing top cover, why have these things not happened?

sofa
17th March 2017, 21:01
Yes, I'm not *entirely* sure that highlighting that the two CASA's were grounded for four weeks while components were removed, sent to Spain, fixed and then returned - instead of insisting that replacement parts were sent out from Spain is helping the the PR effort...

The fact remains that either the AC knew it would be required to generate an aircraft and did nothing about it for 3 hours, and then when it tried it took them 3 hours to find a qualified crew, or it took them 6 hours to find a qualified crew.

Which of those alternatives do you find more comforting?

Aer Corp are not tasked to have a top cover air craft at the ready for the Coast Guard. If the Coast Guard make a request and its possible,
then the aircraft will be diverted to give a dig out with a heart and a half. When needed for the downed aircraft they responded.

Are air crews required to take 45 min at night from waking up and taking off for safety reasons. plus tecties arriving, plus prepping. plus distance to go ,may be the best part of three hours. ???

DeV
17th March 2017, 21:14
if we assume you are correct, and i've no reason to believe otherwise - where are the Irish Government lawyers who should be breathing down CHC's neck for failing to honour their side off the deal?

where is the minister standing up in the Dail and telling TD's that the Government has suspended payments to CHC for failing to provide the agreed service the Government is paying for?

if CHC is supposed to be providing top cover, why have these things not happened?

Because they were providing their own TC, with another S92.

Dail is on holidays.

Because the State would need up being sued before the outcome is determined by AAIU.

sofa
17th March 2017, 21:22
if we assume you are correct, and i've no reason to believe otherwise - where are the Irish Government lawyers who should be breathing down CHC's neck for failing to honour their side off the deal?

where is the minister standing up in the Dail and telling TD's that the Government has suspended payments to CHC for failing to provide the agreed service the Government is paying for?

if CHC is supposed to be providing top cover, why have these things not happened?

I would imagine the question of top cover is a question the families of the crew should ask CHC. not the Aer Corp.

sofa
17th March 2017, 22:03
R116 departing Dublin, (At 01.40 min) (03.50 min)
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/eidw/EIDW3-Twr-118600-Mar-13-2017-2300Z.mp3

danno
17th March 2017, 22:16
if we assume you are correct, and i've no reason to believe otherwise - where are the Irish Government lawyers who should be breathing down CHC's neck for failing to honour their side off the deal?

where is the minister standing up in the Dail and telling TD's that the Government has suspended payments to CHC for failing to provide the agreed service the Government is paying for?

if CHC is supposed to be providing top cover, why have these things not happened?

Chc did honour its side of the deal and four of its employees have lost their lives whilst delivering a critical State service in difficult conditions. CHC provided its own T/C , the casevac was successful but tragedy overtook events.

One aspect of the media reporting that is disturbing is the manner it which it portrayed the AC which declined to provide T/C in three cases this year (which it can validly decline and is under no responsibility to provide same) as having "refused" to provide T/C. The use of this term suggests an element of insubordination on the part of the AC and complete indifference to the CG crews and the victims who needed to be picked up.
This is unfair to the AC and indeed the DF organisation and the DoD/DF are well entitled to refute this and have it withdrawn.

Orion
17th March 2017, 22:47
There is some degree of criticism of the Air Corps response in this thread.

The link below relates to a similar incident ...

http://www.military.ie/en/press-office/news-and-events/single-view/article/wednesday-22nd-february-2017-naval-service-and-air-corps-assist-in-the-recovery-of-a-fisherman/?cHash=f1dac93573a310b9e88c12aad97a787c

In my opinion the Air Corps like any other organisation will operate within the parameters and budget as set by those who hold the purse strings

danno
17th March 2017, 22:52
Indeed the T/C saga has been well aired here already;

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?21744-Top-cover

tonyrdf
18th March 2017, 09:43
I see the Naval Service state in a Facebook post that LE Eithne is using her Hull Mounted Sonar in the search.
I though that piece of equipment haddnt been used in years?

https://www.facebook.com/irishnavalservice/posts/1280742298675330

na grohmiti
18th March 2017, 10:06
I don't think you are correct there. Eithne is using sidescan, which is towed, and the hull mounted photo comes from L.E. Roisin.

tonyrdf
18th March 2017, 10:43
I'm only reading what the NS are posting themselves.
8403
They state that Eithne is using her Hull Mounted Systems, they also mention that the picture displayed
Is the sidescan displayed on Rosin!

Have a look at the description of the third picture.

na grohmiti
18th March 2017, 12:11
I'm only reading what the NS are posting themselves.
8403
They state that Eithne is using her Hull Mounted Systems, they also mention that the picture displayed
Is the sidescan displayed on Rosin!

Have a look at the description of the third picture.

I see what you mean now. Last time I looked there was a large open space where the Hull mounted sonar display was kept. I also heard the retractable sonar housing was closed up some years ago. Apart from the usual depth finding sonar, unless they have upgraded the user interface.

pym
18th March 2017, 12:40
The contract will cover the provision and fit of a Multi Beam Echo Sounder/Sonar System. Where suitable, it will replace an existing system and use existing through hull apertures however it is appreciated that this may not be possible in every case.

The Multi Beam Echo Sounder /Sonar System will be capable of building a three dimensional profile or picture of the seabed around the ship and will be suitable for seabed and water column searches in Search and Rescue, Security and Navigation Safety functions.


Technical Requirements

a. NS has limited hull mounted underwater detection capability. This limits utility in sunken vessels searches. The equipment purchased therefore must be capable of improving the situational awareness of NS ships in relation to the undersea domain.
b. In particular the equipment must improve NS capacity to locate and profile obstructions and wrecks on the seabed. The system will be multi-beam. It will have a 3D sea-floor/ object modelling function and a contour mapping function. It should also improve the possibility of detecting vessels or objects submerged in the water column above the seabed.
c. The system should permit deductions to be made in relation to the nature of the seabed itself. The system will be have a beam spread to port and starboard of not less than 100º allowing the plotting of a swath of the seabed either side of the vessel. The beam spread will be adjustable in accordance to varying conditions, depths and search requirements.
d. The system will be capable of operating in waters of depth varying from 1m to not less than 500m.
e. The power outputs and frequencies in use should be fit for purpose but should not be of an order known to cause distress or harm to cetaceans. Frequencies in the order of 80 kHz and power outputs in the order of 100W to 1.5kW would be anticipated for the system but it is understood that these will vary based on the system tendered. The tender will include details of the operating frequencies and power and, if significantly different from those anticipated, will explain the technical reasons for those differences. Equipment provided must include all elements needed for full installation and operation of the system. The schedule will need to include all transducers, transceivers, glands, fixtures, computers, displays and connectors needed.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=71231&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

I imagine it should be technically possible to listen for the ultrasonic pings from the black box using the same or similar equipment - there's just a difference in frequency of about 40kHz

DeV
18th March 2017, 13:42
MOD: let's leave the debate to the media (who are pre-guessing the outcome of an expert AAIU inquiry that will be lengthy, thorough and will leave no stone unturned to find out what happened).

Let's give the families, friends and colleagues a bit of respect.

Let's hope that the remaining 3 crew are recovered quickly.

This thread will remain open in the hope that there will be good news to post

GoneToTheCanner
19th March 2017, 16:15
By coincidence, a brother of a work colleague of mine was one of those called in to man the Casa for that mission and he went in, despite not being officially rostered for on-call. One of the pilots was recalled from holiday leave, not just at home in bed, so it illustrates the difficulty of rounding up an ad-hoc, unrostered posse to fill the Casa (six people, isn't it, for a full crew?) as well as techs to get the aircraft ready from a standing start. If you had had a few pints, you couldn't have gone in, with the best will in the world. so,if anyone is to get a slap for this, take it to AC management and then to the DoD and Finance.

restless
19th March 2017, 20:28
AS we all know, the fishing industry is one of the most dangerous work environments and considering this, take a look at ais right now 100km off the mayo coast and zoom in to note the amount of, size of , nationality of and imagine the amount of people working out there plundering our waters right now. IT sickens me to think that brave men and women of the coastguard and NS/AC have to put their lives on the line every time some poor exploited deck hand gets injured due to poor and unlawful working environment. The money men behind this complete military style exploitation/ hovering up of fish stocks should be made pay for rescue in some way (i know this is being idealistic) but just take a look at current ais. I think the rescue services will continue to be as busy as they have been for the last few weeks in and out to this fleet (3 long range helo ops in the last two weeks involving ns). It just sickening and all wrong in my opinion. rant over!

sofa
19th March 2017, 21:43
Declan Powers on Marian Finucane this morning. From 30min 50sec. worth a listen.

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F10698997%5F70%5F19%2D03 %2D2017%5F

na grohmiti
19th March 2017, 22:45
My god her voice is irritating.

Good point well made though. (Not that Declan was listened to).

trellheim
19th March 2017, 23:18
plundering our waters right now

Grind your axe elsewhere . If you want to raise a topic about fish quotas in the EU by all means but 4 people lost their life here on a shout. Have some fking perspective. The modding on this thread is going to get far harsher if this plonkery continues.

TangoSierra
19th March 2017, 23:27
His points were well made but that didn't stop that wagon from glossing over them.

It's a telling indication of the DoDs level of competency, efficiency and agility when they still have Simon Coveney as the Minister on their website

http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/document+id/F1D0573937E68A9E802570BA00421F88

restless
20th March 2017, 08:21
Grind your axe elsewhere . If you want to raise a topic about fish quotas in the EU by all means but 4 people lost their life here on a shout. Have some fking perspective. The modding on this thread is going to get far harsher if this plonkery continues.

Your the one missing the point. As an IRCG volunteer who has worked with some of the crew of 116 i can assure you i have more respect than most. Fact is, there wouldnt have been a shout in the first place (3 in two weeks and all to this fleet) if this massive commercial exercise wasnt happening.

DeV
20th March 2017, 09:13
His points were well made but that didn't stop that wagon from glossing over them.

It's a telling indication of the DoDs level of competency, efficiency and agility when they still have Simon Coveney as the Minister on their website

http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/document+id/F1D0573937E68A9E802570BA00421F88

http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/home+page?openform

You must be looking at a different one

trellheim
20th March 2017, 12:03
Your the one missing the point. As an IRCG volunteer who has worked with some of the crew of 116 i can assure you i have more respect than most. Fact is, there wouldnt have been a shout in the first place (3 in two weeks and all to this fleet) if this massive commercial exercise wasnt happening.

How the fk is regular fishing activity relevant ? I'm posting this in white cos I just can't see how you can make the intellectual leap here "fish quotas got R116 crew killed" By that logic you can keep that train going till "European Union kills R116 crew " . Like I said start another thread cos it stinks of axe-grinding.

ropebag
20th March 2017, 13:55
How the fk is regular fishing activity relevant ? I'm posting this in white cos I just can't see how you can make the intellectual leap here "fish quotas got R116 crew killed" By that logic you can keep that train going till "European Union kills R116 crew " . Like I said start another thread cos it stinks of axe-grinding.

to be strictly fair, its well known reaction to loss - if X hadn't happened, then Y would not have happened.

if the deckhand hadn't injured himself - or been fishing off Spain - then the helicopter wouldn't have been in the air and therefore wouldn't have crashed. technically that might be true, if something failed then that failure might have been spotted on the ground, or that Seagull wouldn't have flown into the engine - but its flawed logic, the truth is that if you operate helicopters you're eventually going to lose one/some, and if you operate helicopters at night, in crap weather, over the water and sometimes at the ragged edge of their capabilities then you're going to lose more.

my ex-wife holds this view over the death of her mother - if someone had called 999 instead of calling NHS 24 when she showed signs of having a stroke she might have survived, this however misses the point that if you smoke 30 a day for 40 years you're eventually going to die of lung cancer. which she did.

GoneToTheCanner
20th March 2017, 17:24
I agree. Its called attrition; you put enough people in harm's way and, unsurprisingly, some of them won't get to come home. Flying helicopters, even sophisticated ones, is still a risky business and the loss rate of helicopters is always higher than that of fixed wing aircraft and SAR ops hold a higher risk than just tootling from the Don to the Curragh......Ireland,as a State, doesn't do attrition well; it hates having to fess up to making mistakes, especially ones that cost lives; the Niemba massacre, the crash of DH 248, both of which highlighted organisational failures. sadly, it has taken yet another fatal accident to highlight some positives; we, the people hold our rescue services in high esteem (regardless of who is actually flying the helicopters), especially when the rescuers are prepared to go all out for the job; we, the people still respect volunteerism (which is cynically exploited by the State in all walks of life instead of actually funding services) and will often go to the ends of the earth to do it......@ropebag, that logic reminds me of Middle east logic; a taxi was hired by a colleague in Dubai and the driver hit another car at a roundabout, yet my colleague got blamed; if the foreigner hadn't hired a taxi and collided with a native, then it wouldn't have happened, so it's all the foreigner's fault. Money changed hands and my colleague was whisked out of Dubai and never set foot there again.

restless
20th March 2017, 22:36
How the fk is regular fishing activity relevant ? I'm posting this in white cos I just can't see how you can make the intellectual leap here "fish quotas got R116 crew killed" By that logic you can keep that train going till "European Union kills R116 crew " . Like I said start another thread cos it stinks of axe-grinding.

I never once mentioned quotas sir, nor have i any interest in discussing the cfp. There is nothing "regular" as you put it about the fishing activity off our west coast as the numbers are increasing every year. There are 110 approx vessels out there ranging in size from 70m to 110m factory ships, at an average of 30 souls per ship thats 3000 working in very dangerous conditions on these unregulated vessels. the law of averages suggests the bigger the numbers at risk the more callouts for us, or can you not understand that? Im glad it has finally reached the public domain today that the callout turned out to be a laceration to someones thumb, which the skipper of the foreign vessel couldnt manage to communicate properly (something the rescue community have been aware of from day one making this all the more difficult to swallow). when these fleets have moved on to exploit other seas without even a look over their shoulder we will be left to bury our dead. yes im mad and i make no apologies for it.

sofa
20th March 2017, 22:50
Twice I have had to ring for a Ambulance and each time I was asked questions about the patient.

Truck Driver
20th March 2017, 23:38
I agree. Its called attrition; you put enough people in harm's way and, unsurprisingly, some of them won't get to come home. Flying helicopters, even sophisticated ones, is still a risky business and the loss rate of helicopters is always higher than that of fixed wing aircraft and SAR ops hold a higher risk than just tootling from the Don to the Curragh......Ireland,as a State, doesn't do attrition well; it hates having to fess up to making mistakes, especially ones that cost lives; the Niemba massacre, the crash of DH 248, both of which highlighted organisational failures. sadly, it has taken yet another fatal accident to highlight some positives; we, the people hold our rescue services in high esteem (regardless of who is actually flying the helicopters), especially when the rescuers are prepared to go all out for the job; we, the people still respect volunteerism (which is cynically exploited by the State in all walks of life instead of actually funding services) and will often go to the ends of the earth to do it......@ropebag, that logic reminds me of Middle east logic; a taxi was hired by a colleague in Dubai and the driver hit another car at a roundabout, yet my colleague got blamed; if the foreigner hadn't hired a taxi and collided with a native, then it wouldn't have happened, so it's all the foreigner's fault. Money changed hands and my colleague was whisked out of Dubai and never set foot there again.

Excellent post... \:)|

morpheus
21st March 2017, 09:06
Cue loss of Casa maritime patrol to private operator like CHC which doubles as fixed wing TC - saves the exchequer lots of money (in the here and now) and drives another nail in the coffin of the AC - through no fault of the AC's and to the satisfaction of the useless shower of f**ks in DOD.

GoneToTheCanner
21st March 2017, 09:56
There are always manipulations of figures going on; if you went into the Don and counted the actual number of pilots available for Casa duty, it would be quite small, given that rotorcraft are in the majority; same applies to mechs working on the Casas, ATC, storemen, drivers and all the sundry others. Also, you have pilots on ground tours or away on courses/career breaks /leave /sick,etc so the actual, usable headcount is quite small. In the case of ATC, what happened was, when the Casas came into service, they insisted that they be the only source of personnel to operate the mission equipment in the aircraft so that sucked bodies out of ATC, which was already thinly manned and it had the ultimate effect of driving people out of the Don, because flying in Casas, on shift, down the back end, is boring and tiring and a bit dangerous so people voted with their feet and left. It also affected photographers, who used to fly sporadically, who now found themselves rostered to fly, for six hours in a Casa, instead of short flights, so they got fed up and started to leave. It also brought pressure to bear on storemen, drivers and the caterers, who suddenly found themselves having to work hard in a 24 hr environment. Same for the mechs. Life prior to the 24 hr environment, was relatively cushy but now, having to be in at 2 am to service a Casa for a rapid turnaround to do an air ambulance, upset the applecart. The Don suddenly had to do some growing up and it had to do it in a hurry and it did not always do so willingly. Certain little empires fought their corner and it all got very shouty. Events like Dh 248 caused major upsets to cushy lifestyles and it would be unfortunate if R116 has to generate yet another upset, even though the Don is blameless on the non-availability of the Casa for that illfated op. The people who turned off the tap for 24/7 ops will run for cover and I'll bet a dollar that the hapless Don will be blamed, as they are convenient and suitably silent targets.

na grohmiti
21st March 2017, 10:05
Surely though some of the responsibility for the current situation lands at the door of GOCAC? The current office holder came directly from fixed wing and should be unde no illusion as to the current happenings? This is not news! As far back as the introduction of Naval Co-Op these difficulties and the 9-5 mentality and opposition to change was widely known. Even the closure of Gormo as an Air Corps base saw droves leave the service instead of having to commute to south dublin.

Away from this debate, which will go on and on, latest news reports are suggesting that recovered wreckage from R116 tail section show the aircraft made contact with the rock face of Black Rock Island.
Very tragic, and we can only hope that the weather permits a fast recovery of the remaining missing crew and the voice and data recorders.

DeV
21st March 2017, 11:15
Journalists are insinuating that the helicopter crashed into the rock, the AAIU statement says ".... consistent with the tail of the aircraft contacting rocky surfaces on the Western end of Blackrock."

http://afloat.ie/safety/coastguard/item/35297-aaiu-statement-on-investigation-into-the-loss-of-r116

That doesn't necessarily mean it was attached to the aircraft at the time or that it happened during the crash.

na grohmiti
21st March 2017, 11:25
That statement is from yesterday. Things seem to be different today.
https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2017/0321/861280-mayo-helicopter-crash/
http://www.thejournal.ie/investigators-found-additional-wreckage-rescue-116-3298517-Mar2017/
Jurgen White on Morning Ireland.
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F21147612%5F48%5F21%2D03 %2D2017%5F

danno
21st March 2017, 21:55
I would imagine that the two fatality incidents concerning the Cg will cause a review of ops regarding the dispatch of units in the line of risk assessment and critical nature of the op. This will not bring back the brave ones who did not return but may reduce the possibility of future negative outcomes.

Sparky42
22nd March 2017, 13:01
RTE reporting that the Wreckage has been located and identified here's hoping the Remains will be recovered soon.

sofa
22nd March 2017, 20:55
Newstalk this morning, about 50mm in on the top redslider. DF in Crisis
http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/5/34770/22nd_March_2017_-_Newstalk_Breakfast_Part_2/

danno
25th March 2017, 06:19
Reports on radio confirming a T4 has been recovered.

DeV
25th March 2017, 07:15
Blackbox has been recovered and 1 body located

na grohmiti
25th March 2017, 08:51
Media were asked not to report this until family notified, but Journal.ie and the Mirror went ahead and reported it anyway.

Bravo20
25th March 2017, 13:56
MOD: Just a reminder. People have died and their families can be aware of what is posted here. Please do not name names of which bodies may have been recovered until it has been confirmed that their families have been informed. EVEN if that name has been reported in some media outlets. You are all doing very well on this thread but do not underestimate how much it can upset families if the name is released too early.

expat01
25th March 2017, 18:13
Independent reporting divers are limited to 9 minutes on the wreck and other sources say it's at 40 meters.
Which makes sense as 9 minutes is the no deco limit at 40m on air. For civilians.
No in-water decompression in those swells makes sense, but no nitrox, or no chamber on board....dammit we need to up our game.

restless
25th March 2017, 18:19
Independent reporting divers are limited to 9 minutes on the wreck and other sources say it's at 40 meters.
Which makes sense as 9 minutes is the no deco limit at 40m on air. For civilians.
No in-water decompression in those swells makes sense, but no nitrox, or no chamber on board....dammit we need to up our game.

chamber is on board irish lights vessel on scene as far as i know

DeV
25th March 2017, 18:51
chamber is on board irish lights vessel on scene as far as i know

Correct, NSDS containerised one

expat01
25th March 2017, 20:43
Correct me if I'm wrong here:
If they are on single 12 litres, that would leave them at critical on 9-12 minutes, depending on the diver's fitness. But nobody would go down to 40 on a working dive without twins.
A 30% mix should give them a no-deco time of closer to 15 minutes. I suppose they would have to use 29% to keep to a P02 of 1.4, which these days is the conservative limit.
A decompression chamber should allow them to directly surface even after half an hour bottom time then use the chamber.
So it still sounds like they are working to Buhlmann no-deco limits for ordinary air and not using the chamber...
Unless there are only a couple of dive teams, each team needs at least three hours and increasing out of the water to dive again "clean" without being increasingly restricted on subsequent dives and we might be reading the limits that they are subject to because of repetitive dives without and adequate surface interval...and no use of a chamber or nitrox?

DeV
25th March 2017, 21:49
NSDS diving course is among the hardest to pass in the DF, they are very fit and very well trained

sofa
25th March 2017, 21:55
Independent reporting divers are limited to 9 minutes on the wreck and other sources say it's at 40 meters.
Which makes sense as 9 minutes is the no deco limit at 40m on air. For civilians.
No in-water decompression in those swells makes sense, but no nitrox, or no chamber on board....dammit we need to up our game.

Irish lights vessel pulled in to Galway on the way up and all that the Navy needed was loaded an board.
10min max dives, diving in pairs.

expat01
25th March 2017, 23:31
Which means they are either using air, or working to quite conservative limits with nitrox.
That might make sense. If there is a strong current and swell getting to, keeping on station and working outside the wreck would be hard.
After that productivity depends on how many pairs, each having a total dive time of around 16-17 minutes and requiring 3 hours off between dives. You'd need 20 divers to enable you to work for three hours before the first pair go back in the water, but I doubt they have a big window of weather and daylight

na grohmiti
25th March 2017, 23:50
I don't think daylight is an issue affecting dives at present. At that depth surface lighting conditions will mean nothing on the seabed anyway. ROV can provide all the seabed light you need.Dives are being carried out by a combination of naval and garda divers. Not sure if Gardai work with Nitrox. Seems that NS are doing the recovery while Garda continue the area search. Is it too deep for diving with surface supply?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/rescue-116-recovery-effort-to-resume-on-sunday-1.3024934

The recent book on the NS diving unit did reveal their limitations at depth.

danno
26th March 2017, 10:22
Usually, for NS it is 36m on cylinders and then down to 50m on surface supply. The SS will render it easier to access a given wreck .

na grohmiti
26th March 2017, 10:51
With surface supply at that depth, one can see why the surge would give so much problems.

expat01
26th March 2017, 12:17
Interesting, I must look for that book on NS diving.
I don't want to second-guess these guys. I haven't dived past 60 myself and I'm more comfortable at a limit of 40 because I'm not trimix qualified. Some of my mates were assisting on a series of sub-100 metre trimix dives to film coelacanths a few years ago and it almost started to look routine...if you accept death at any time as part of your routine. Two of them died during a 60 metre dive - one of literally hundreds they'd done - just a year later.

Bravo20
26th March 2017, 12:39
http://www.thejournal.ie/rescue-116-helicopter-3307411-Mar2017/

They have recovered the body from the helicopter. Still waiting on identification.

na grohmiti
26th March 2017, 16:33
Interesting, I must look for that book on NS diving.
I don't want to second-guess these guys. I haven't dived past 60 myself and I'm more comfortable at a limit of 40 because I'm not trimix qualified. Some of my mates were assisting on a series of sub-100 metre trimix dives to film coelacanths a few years ago and it almost started to look routine...if you accept death at any time as part of your routine. Two of them died during a 60 metre dive - one of literally hundreds they'd done - just a year later.

Its called "The Ninth ship". It pulls no punches when dealing with their own limitations, and the wake up call they experienced following the death of a student on a course. Saw a clip earlier of one of the dive team explaining their limitations. Mostly its down to transit time to the bottom. At High tide they have 6 minutes on the bottom, at low tide up to 8. Teams of 3. Currently we are unfortunately on spring tides.

https://twitter.com/patmcgrath/status/845992894934781953?s=04

danno
26th March 2017, 19:06
Capt Duffy's remains have been secured, RIP.

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2017/0326/862655-coast-guard-mayo/

Flamingo
26th March 2017, 20:19
RIP

DeV
26th March 2017, 21:18
RIP

expat01
26th March 2017, 21:22
RIP

restless
26th March 2017, 22:32
RIP

morpheus
27th March 2017, 09:00
RIP

meridian
27th March 2017, 12:08
RIP to all those of R116

apod
27th March 2017, 17:22
RIP

Gadaffi
27th March 2017, 21:42
RIP

Herald
27th March 2017, 22:07
RIP.

danno
27th March 2017, 22:16
According to the news a surface search along the NW coastline is ongoing given that a certain timeline has passed.

DeV
27th March 2017, 22:32
According to the news a surface search along the NW coastline is ongoing given that a certain timeline has passed.

Apparently wreckage has already made it to Donegal

GoneToTheCanner
30th March 2017, 16:44
A lot of the airframe is made up of light weight composites/insulation blankets/plastics and so on and that stuff will continue to appear for months. Lighter metal objects will be pushed along by seabed currents or even dragged by fishing nets. magnesium parts will rot away.

Brian McGrath
31st March 2017, 16:41
Cork Port tug Ocean Challenger formally the Thrax has been tasked to the area to help in the recovery


Ocean Challenger tug has left Castletownbere to assist in recovery of #Rescue116 wreckage

The 35 metre Ocean Challenger tug, operated by Bere Island based salvage experts Atlantic Towage & Marine, has departed Castletownbere Harbour tonight bound for Blacksod Bay to assist in the operation to recover the main wreckage of Rescue 116 and according to Marine Traffic is expected on scene over the weekend to join the Naval Diving Team currently on site..

Search co-ordinators have indicated that they now plan to lift the wreckage to the surface using the Ocean Challenger and other vessels on scene over the weekend when swells ease.

Naval Service divers will assist in the effort, which will allow for the inspection of an area below the helicopter that has been inaccessible since the crash over two weeks ago.

Plans to move the wreckage of Coast Guard Rescue Helicopter 116 using inflatable lifting bags were abandoned in recent days due to the large swell conditions at sea.

The mid sized tug will be positioned directly above the site, so the five-tonne wreckage can be taken from the water from a depth of 40 metres.

In 2014 Atlantic Towage & Marine successfully retrieved the 4 tonne keel of the yacht Rambler 100 from a depth of 75 metres off the Fastnet Rock in similar conditions to the Rescue 116 accident site at Blackrock island..

na grohmiti
31st March 2017, 19:50
Was on that tug when she first arrived in Cork. Occasionally did relief for Alex. Very impressive (spotlessly clean) machinery space. Twin VSPs. Normally operates the Whiddy terminal.

danno
1st April 2017, 07:23
Despite the advent of the P60's the NS have the people but not any actual unit that can undertake the recovery task.

golden rivet
1st April 2017, 17:11
Despite the advent of the P60's the NS have the people but not any actual unit that can undertake the recovery task.
they tried hard to get a ship for this type of ops and could be a dive/patrol/heavy lift/... ,, but as usual ,, a fool in an office said no ,,,,,

danno
1st April 2017, 19:35
Maybe its fear of what would come with the territory of having such a unit, by whom one can only speculate.

Sparky42
1st April 2017, 22:52
they tried hard to get a ship for this type of ops and could be a dive/patrol/heavy lift/... ,, but as usual ,, a fool in an office said no ,,,,,

Do you mean the EPV/MPV hull? As far as I know nobody said no to that (outside of hey there's a massive economic crash to deal with) and that it's still going to replace Eithne...

na grohmiti
2nd April 2017, 20:06
Wreckage of the aircraft has been raised to the surface, unfortunately there is no sign of the other 2 crew.

DeV
13th April 2017, 22:56
Prelim AAIU report

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202017-006%20PRELIMINARY.pdf

Sparky42
13th April 2017, 23:02
Prelim AAIU report

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202017-006%20PRELIMINARY.pdf

Not sure printing the final conversations really helps anything, though I'm surprised that the Stack (having a Lighthouse) wasn't in their system.

DeV
13th April 2017, 23:49
Not sure printing the final conversations really helps anything, though I'm surprised that the Stack (having a Lighthouse) wasn't in their system.

Evidence (unfortunately) and if it was to prevent another accident

Sparky42
13th April 2017, 23:54
Evidence (unfortunately) and if it was to prevent another accident

I'm not debating the value in terms of preventing another accident, I just meant in terms of the Papers/sites when there's still two crew missing. Would they be using nav data supplied by the State or a third party?

DeV
14th April 2017, 00:11
I'm not debating the value in terms of preventing another accident, I just meant in terms of the Papers/sites when there's still two crew missing. Would they be using nav data supplied by the State or a third party?

The route guide to Blacksod which they were following was CHC Ireland's.

The various navaids/safety equipment use various sources

morpheus
14th April 2017, 09:11
That route giude took them through the airspace at blackrock at under 300ft?

The real Jack
14th April 2017, 09:38
R116 had no comms with R118 directly? Am I reading this right?

DeV
14th April 2017, 10:02
That route giude took them through the airspace at blackrock at under 300ft?

On the map it says "282" very close to Blackrock, is that the start of the approach (28 feet under the top of the light house)?

DeV
14th April 2017, 10:06
R116 had no comms with R118 directly? Am I reading this right?

".... made extensive attempts .... Two-way communications were briefly established ...."

na grohmiti
14th April 2017, 12:21
Please Read the report. WHile the avionics does indicate the spot height, it did not indicate the correct terrain. The FLIR Operator warned the pilot before impact. Avionics gave the pilot an incorrect situational awareness.
Honeywell provided the specific avionics, which has geographic data provided by a third party (Unnamed in the report).
The Secondary, and to me more concerning aspect to the interim report was the apparent failure of the crew PLB due to the storage of the PLB antennae on Mk 44 Crewmans lifejacket.

ICAO Annex 13 requires that survival aspects of an aviation accident are considered as part of the Investigation. At this preliminary stage, the Investigation has not gathered all of the evidence and information required to deal with this matter comprehensively. However, the Investigation identified a matter of concern relating to the installation of the locator beacons in the lifejackets worn by the pilots. The installation appeared to be in accordance with a picture contained in a Service Bulletin issued by the lifejacket manufacturer showing the GPS antenna in the same pouch as the beacon. However, the beacon manufacturer’s publications recommend a minimum separation between beacon and GPS antenna of 30 centimetres (cm). In order to ensure that locator beacons in Mk 44 lifejackets function as expected a Safety Recommendation is issued to the manufacturer of the lifejacket
Should this be later identified as a failure, it could have serious consequences worldwide for the manufacturer. One could speculate that their failure to operate led to the loss of at least 1, if not 3 of the crew of R116.

DeV
14th April 2017, 12:41
Please Read the report. WHile the avionics does indicate the spot height, it did not indicate the correct terrain. The FLIR Operator warned the pilot before impact. Avionics gave the pilot an incorrect situational awareness.
Honeywell provided the specific avionics, which has geographic data provided by a third party (Unnamed in the report).
The Secondary, and to me more concerning aspect to the interim report was the apparent failure of the crew PLB due to the storage of the PLB antennae on Mk 44 Crewmans lifejacket.

Should this be later identified as a failure, it could have serious consequences worldwide for the manufacturer. One could speculate that their failure to operate led to the loss of at least 1, if not 3 of the crew of R116.

To use the holes in the cheese analogy

The crash shouldn't have happened in the first place, therefore the crew wouldn't have ended up in the water.

To me this preliminary report asks questions to the approach

CTU
14th April 2017, 19:50
To use the holes in the cheese analogy

The crash shouldn't have happened in the first place, therefore the crew wouldn't have ended up in the water.

To me this preliminary report asks questions to the approach

To me this "preliminary" report is notifying the wider aviation community that the aircraft did not have an engineering issue that requires urgent grounding of other aircraft, but has identified some safety issues that do require attention.

So lets just leave the investigation to the professionals and wait for the final report.

DeV
14th April 2017, 20:41
To me this "preliminary" report is notifying the wider aviation community that the aircraft did not have an engineering issue that requires urgent grounding of other aircraft, but has identified some safety issues that do require attention.

So lets just leave the investigation to the professionals and wait for the final report.

Plus note the 2 safety recommendations that have been issued - 1 to the aircraft operator

CTU
14th April 2017, 21:47
Plus note the 2 safety recommendations that have been issued - 1 to the aircraft operator

And the other to a manafacturer of safety equipment, and by putting it in a publicly available report they have also notified other organisations of these issues, who can then see if their equipment is up to standard. There are other things mentioned in this report other then the two recommondations that could also be key to the investigation, which is no where near finished.

Orion
14th April 2017, 22:17
I guess there are still a lot of questions to be considered ....

Is it not best to let the official process follow its course

Sparky42
13th July 2017, 21:42
Primetime is covering the Crash tonight, reporting that during testing of the 92's the lack of island was flagged 4 years ago.
On now.

DeV
26th October 2017, 08:19
Prime time are covering safety failings in CHC Ireland tonight

GoneToTheCanner
1st November 2017, 12:42
the IAA's charts were found to be seriously wanting. When you buy an IAA chart, they always ask you to review the chart and point out an errors, such as a failure to include a wind farm and so on. Now, you would have to fly the entire island to find all the faults unless you consult literally every pilot of every aircraft type on the island and that's not practical, so you depend on the OS, who drew up the original, to be accurate........apart from all that, why were the crew at 282 feet, facing inland, when the same quadrant on the chart has the mountains of Achill exceed 2000 feet. Normal instrument flight practise is to stay at least a thousand feet above the highest land mass or obstacle in the given quadrant at all times, unless you are actually "in" an approach procedure, ie conducting an ILS or VOR or NDB approach. To me, they appear to have believed that they were safely "in" the approach procedure but didn't grasp that they were too low and therefore not protected from terrain. It makes no sense to me to instigate an approach at only 282 feet, as it leaves little room for error.

Orion
11th December 2017, 21:40
.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/first-look-at-the-iconic-sea-king-helicopter-named-after-captain-dara-fitzpatrick-464278.html#

DeV
16th March 2018, 14:54
AAIU Interim Statement no 2
http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/Interim%20Statement_2.pdf

na grohmiti
21st May 2018, 18:41
Given that the Minister has decided to instigate an independant review of Ireland's SAR services, can one assume he has had eyes on the accident report, and it does not inspire confidence in the current situation?


Shane Ross announces details of independent review into search and rescue operations

Monday, May 21, 2018 - 11:31 AM

A review into search and rescue operations following the Coast Guard Rescue 116 crash will look at any gaps or lack of clarity in the roles, processes, training and resources available.

The Minister for Transport has announced details of the independent review that will take place following the helicopter crash off Blackrock Island in Mayo last year, where four crew members lost their lives.

It will be led by Professor Jules Kneepkens along with a team of international experts - who will also examine the practices and procedures in search and rescue oversight in place and make recommendations to address the issues.
On March 14 last year a Coastguard chopper went down at Blackrock Island.
The bodies of Captain Dara Fitzpatrick and Captain Mark Duffy were recovered – however their colleagues Paul Ormsby and Ciaran Smith remain lost at sea.

The Air Accident Investigation Unit is still looking into the cause of the crash – but an interim report more than two months ago recommended a thorough review of the State’s search and rescue aviation operations.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/shane-ross-announces-details-of-independent-review-into-search-and-rescue-operations-844151.html

DeV
24th May 2018, 21:56
Given that the Minister has decided to instigate an independant review of Ireland's SAR services, can one assume he has had eyes on the accident report, and it does not inspire confidence in the current situation?

It’s a safety recommendation from the interim statement from the AAIU
http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/SRs/IRLD2018003-20180313_2.pdf


There are 2 others (1 for Sikorsky and 1 for CHC Ireland)

na grohmiti
24th May 2018, 21:57
Why wait till now?

DeV
24th May 2018, 21:58
Why wait till now?

Who knows but 2 months to start it probably isn’t too bad for any Department

hptmurphy
24th May 2018, 23:29
Given that the Minister has decided to instigate an independant review of Ireland's SAR services, can one assume he has had eyes on the accident report, and it does not inspire confidence in the current situation?

Whoa!!!

Back up the truck !

Its CHC that need looking at as they are the contractors. Unless there is an implied responsibility by the state in the operation of the service out side the contract the issue lies with CHC. Hence the service was outsourced in the first place.

Other wise the state will end up providing the service directly...and as we know thats another world of shit we don't need to revisit.

na grohmiti
25th May 2018, 10:53
WHy not announce it on receiving the interim report?

GoneToTheCanner
25th May 2018, 13:15
There are eight AAIU inspectors; each one covers about 8 to 10 accidents/incidents/events each on an ongoing basis. As each new one comes in, the Boss assigns manpower to the event, depending on the gravity of the situation, who's got a gap in his/her schedule, expertise on Type and so on. The Boss, as well as playing his part in investigating accidents in his own right, is also Head of Unit from a Civil Service point of view, so has to deal with all the political operations of the unit, as he answers directly to the Minister and is invariably required to answer questions from the Dail/media/Foreign AAIUs and so on. Each Inspector will be assigned to an Investigation by name and will be backed up by one or two others. As you can imagine, an incident or accident with fatalities involved gets a great deal more attention than some guy accidentally running his light aircraft into a hedge yet each one has to be dealt with. Big ones get a blizzard of media attention, as well as political attention and you can add gardai/military into the mix as well. The AAIU is a tiny unit, compared to virtually all of the Civil Service, yet is expected to punch it's weight to the standard of the UK's AAIB, as a base level.

DeV
28th May 2018, 21:24
Whoa!!!

Back up the truck !

Its CHC that need looking at as they are the contractors. Unless there is an implied responsibility by the state in the operation of the service out side the contract the issue lies with CHC. Hence the service was outsourced in the first place.

Other wise the state will end up providing the service directly...and as we know thats another world of shit we don't need to revisit.

Read the recommendation (the Minister is the issuing authority with regard to the SAR framework.

There have so far been safety recommendations to:
CHC Ireland x 2
RFD Beaufort
Sikorsky
The Minister



WHy not announce it on receiving the interim report?
Because unlike reports that we are used to hearing about, the Minister received the AAIU at the same time as everyone else (they sometimes issue them in advance for those referred to to correct/comment)

GoneToTheCanner
29th May 2018, 15:00
Draft reports are sent to involved parties in an accident for their input/comment/correction, before final publication. Interim reports are simply an information release whilst the investigation is ongoing.

na grohmiti
22nd September 2018, 12:17
AQE Review of the Oversight of Search and Rescue (SAR) Aviation Operations in Ireland

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/review-oversight-search-and-rescue-sar-aviation-operations-ireland/20180921aqefinalreportweb.pdf

DeV
23rd September 2018, 18:22
AQE Review of the Oversight of Search and Rescue (SAR) Aviation Operations in Ireland

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/review-oversight-search-and-rescue-sar-aviation-operations-ireland/20180921aqefinalreportweb.pdf

SAR ops don’t seem to be regulated at all

Orion
14th March 2019, 19:39
from - http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?26539-Rescue-R116-thread-moved

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/fil...ment%202_1.pdf (http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/R116%20Interim%20Statement%202_1.pdf)

2nd interim report - basically final draft will be privately circulated soon

sofa
17th March 2019, 18:53
Why privately. Is there something to cover up.?

DeV
22nd March 2019, 15:00
Why privately. Is there something to cover up.?

Happens with all AAIU investigations

The families, operator, manufacturers etc etc will all get a copy

Firstly so they don’t have to read about it first in the media and secondly if there is anything that is incorrect, typos etc that it can be corrected (as assume there has to be evidence to prove it) (also means the media read and report the facts (as opposed to mistakes))

na grohmiti
14th March 2020, 13:49
Another year passes, still no report.
Still sadly missed.