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ancientmariner
30th September 2018, 16:14
Of interest to current and future Naval operations is the adequacy of Irish ports to support general Naval deployments and operations. In the National Maritime policy documents and Harbour Acts together with the Mission of the Irish Maritime Development Office there is no mention of the existence of a navy and it's deployment needs in peace or war.
There is also no mention of the need to provide for repair and maintenance of ships or the need to nurture and encourage a shipbuilding industry. In general our ports are in catharsis, getting rid of elements of traditional port usages , abandoning port areas to developers, and making little effort to provide for redacted facilities.
In a nut shell we need ports not dependent on tides or lock gates, with unobstructed quay walls with depths ranging from 5m LWS to 12m LWS to accommodate most trades or visiting ships including Naval vessels.
I was impressed to see the devlopment of Killybegs harbour with sufficient deep water berthage at 12m LWS to have TWO Cruise liners alongside, at the same time, and surprised not to see it listed as important in Government documents outlining the pecking order of Ports.
Our Port development needs more control and oversight to maintain use by all types of ships and cargo including liquids. Care must be taken not to allow preemptive decisions that may exclude traditional use or exclude public access to visiting Naval Vessels

na grohmiti
30th September 2018, 19:31
It is sad to note that what once was the Irish Rail goods yard in Cork, with quayside frontage, is earmarked to become yet another hotel/apartment/residential block on the city quays. In doing so, another of the city quays will become unusable to normal shipping, as those not accustomed to the shipping world will complain about the noise and smells that go with the trade. Port of Cork already have a battle on their hands building the new container facility in Ringaskiddy. Locals are complaining about the building noise. They already complain about the noise from the weekly container visitor from central america. Said noise being the cranes moving to location (like a truck reversing alarm), and the containers landing on the ground or deck.
Wait till they get a load of the new STS dockside cranes, as they ding ding their way up and down the quays, like the luas on a busy shopping day. Meanwhile the people of Blackrock in cork are not looking forward to the departure of the container terminal from Tivoli. Many find the sights and sounds of the activity relaxing as they enjoy the marina walk.

All over irish coastal towns , and even many on the inland waterways you will find disused commercial quaysides. Once used to bring important goods to and from otherwise remote locations. Odd that on the european continent the same inland waterways are still used to bring all manner of goods from place to place, freeing up the already congested road and rail network. In cork there ised to be ships that brought fuel product from the Refinery in whitegate, to the city quays where there were 3 fuel distribution depots. However all have closed now, and all this fuel now moves by road from Whitegate to everywhere in Cork County, and west Waterford. The narrow R630, where commuters from east cork contend with fuel trucks and agricultural vehicles on a two lane secondary road, on their daily commute. 60 fuel trucks an hour on average, all day, at last count. All this freight could move by sea.

On a related note, RTE are currently showing a nice documentary on the work of CIL , maintaining the many lighthouses dotted around our coasts.

hptmurphy
1st October 2018, 10:58
Waterford Port at Belview actually has planning permission for extensions, access to to the major road network and is not impeded by its proximity to the city, the down side being the distance from the point of entry to the estuary.

Waterford city has ample berthage for smaller liners and Naval Vessels and its suitability for events such as the Tall ships has not gone unnoticed.

GoneToTheCanner
1st October 2018, 14:38
The Irish inland waterways don't remotely compare to European canals for commercial use and commercial inland water movement. When you see Dutch/French/German/Austrian/Hungarian live aboard barges (120 feet long, easily twice as broad as a UK/Irish canal barge, pushing or pulling thousands of tons of cargo along wide rivers and canals, it makes you shake your head when you see how unused our inland system is by comparison. A common cargo is building materials, seeing as they are not perishable and can travel slowly, which should be considered here as a basis for a commercial inland water system, considering the drastic need for housing.

ancientmariner
1st October 2018, 16:05
Waterford is as you say a port that meets requirements for TEN-T ( Trans European Transport Network ) supports but if you couple that with the Government policy NOT to provide financial supports especially to Ports of lesser significance then emerging ports such as Sligo, Killybegs etc have to do it themselves. The policy document is a manual for continued Laissez-faire for the maritime sector. If we cannot ship through the UK then port development and ancillary maritime services are crucial but so also the control of a range of vessel types to move goods, liquids as required promptly.
Under the new, almost autonomy of Tier 1 Ports , Dublin killed off half the State's drydocking capacity for transient reasons. In many ways, because we are not thinking strategically, we are sure to be goosed in the medium term.

hptmurphy
1st October 2018, 17:30
Waterford is as you say a port that meets requirements for TEN-T ( Trans European Transport Network ) supports but if you couple that with the Government policy NOT to provide financial supports especially to Ports of lesser significance then emerging ports such as Sligo, Killybegs etc have to do it themselves. The policy document is a manual for continued Laissez-faire for the maritime sector. If we cannot ship through the UK then port development and ancillary maritime services are crucial but so also the control of a range of vessel types to move goods, liquids as required promptly.
Under the new, almost autonomy of Tier 1 Ports , Dublin killed off half the State's drydocking capacity for transient reasons. In many ways, because we are not thinking strategically, we are sure to be goosed in the medium term.

A lot of Dublins growth was initially built around trade but its growth has meant that the port area is now very restricted and that the transport infrastructure can no longer support the level vehicular traffic using it, probably increasing costs with extra tolls etc. In my mind Dublin for this reason actually needs to be scaled down as the main point of importation, Cork for reasons earlier is again heading for limitations due to planning issues and ports such as Killybegs and Sligo will be hampered by the road/ rail network and lack there of!

I would suggest that Cork would have its dry dock modernised to deal with repairs etc, Dublins freight movements capped with the excess moved to Waterford which has access to both rail and road.

At this point in time again for reasons mentioned earlier I would suggest that Waterford is actually the optimum access point for freight to the south of the country......but the road network between Cork and Waterford needs addressing to optimize transhipment.

But then again Government policy has always been very anti South East, Anti any thing except Dublin when it comes to transport including airports so where can we go from here? ...Around in circles it would seem!

DeV
1st October 2018, 19:56
With regard to inland waterways it is slow, suits longer distances and bulk product. To me it would make much more sense to invest in rail freight. Leave the Irish canals to leisure and tourism (maybe investigate if Irish Water could use them as a pipeline).

Why are Dublin and Cork the major ports? Because that is where most goods are manufactured and where the bulk of the market (population) is. Those ports also have internal connectivity with the road network.

For various reasons (traffic & port congestion, environmental, regional development etc IMHO the State should be encouraging the more regional ports to develop

I’d be putting money on a transshipment rail depot somewhere outside Co.Dublin, the TEUs are delivered there and failed to Dublin Port taking a lot of trucks out of the city, flawless plan, definitely not but worth looking at.

I’d definitely be looking to Rosslare, possibly Wicklow or Arklow, possibly Drogheda, Waterford, Foynes etc

na grohmiti
1st October 2018, 20:38
I have to disagree there.
In a past life the Albertkanaal of Belgium was one of my frequent routes. It is only 129km in length. Its former towpaths are now popular cycling and walking greenways. It used to take a full day to get from the start to the end by modern low air draught cargo ship. I often also visited the Belgian port of Ghent, a journey only possible by traversing the Ghent-Terneuzen canal, which is only about 20 miles long, yet this canal can accomodate the largest of vessels. There are plans to expand some of the Locks on the canal to accomodate Panamax vessels.
Ireland has made huuge strides in removing the rail network that once covered the state. Before the state was founded, every fishing port in West cork and Kerry was served by rail. One by one the lines closed, and the predecessor of Irish rail took up the tracks to ensure they could not be put back into use. Even today there is a campaign to convert the disused midleton to Youghal line to a greenway, at a time when commuter traffic on the N25 serving both towns is at breaking point. Less than a decade ago the Cork-Midleton line reopened, and it has been a huge boost to the towns served by the route.

Irish Rail once had two freignt yards in Cork. Both have now closed. One is still used for empty container storage. The sad fact is there is still huge capacity for freight on the Irish rail network. Few, if any passenger trains travel between midnight and 6am. You could move a lot of rail freight during this time, should you so desire.However Irish rail have disposed of most of the freight rolling stock.
Rosslare, the busest port in the South East, has a rail line that stops about a KM from the main terminal. Passengers have to walk the remainder, even though the train stops within the Ferryport fence.

Again your reasoning for Cork being the largest port is incorrect. The majority of freight going through the port (if you discount Oil products from Whitegate) are containerised goods. Products going out are rarely manufactured in Cork city, though of course there is a large quantity that are, but these manufacturers are present because of proximity to Port. Port is not there because of proximity to manufacturers.
Some ofthe goods that go out could just as easily leave from any other port capable of taking such a vessel. Houshold waste for example, shipped out almost weekly.
The fruit that comes in from central america weekly on a huge container ship used to go to Bellvue in Waterford.

sofa
1st October 2018, 21:42
With regard to inland waterways it is slow, suits longer distances and bulk product. To me it would make much more sense to invest in rail freight. Leave the Irish canals to leisure and tourism (maybe investigate if Irish Water could use them as a pipeline).

Why are Dublin and Cork the major ports? Because that is where most goods are manufactured and where the bulk of the market (population) is. Those ports also have internal connectivity with the road network.

For various reasons (traffic & port congestion, environmental, regional development etc IMHO the State should be encouraging the more regional ports to develop

I’d be putting money on a transshipment rail depot somewhere outside Co.Dublin, the TEUs are delivered there and failed to Dublin Port taking a lot of trucks out of the city, flawless plan, definitely not but worth looking at.

I’d definitely be looking to Rosslare, possibly Wicklow or Arklow, possibly Drogheda, Waterford, Foynes etc

Rush Co Dublin has being mentioned in the past. as the new port

hptmurphy
1st October 2018, 22:14
Irish rail continue to shut down lines with the Waterford Rosslare line being one of the most recent. Any development has to be cognisant of the fact that 95% of all freight is containerized and thus involves quite an amount of road haulage. The fragmented rail system would not allow for the centralized distribution of container traffic , thus increasing pressure on the road system. But how much of it is moved at night?

DeV
1st October 2018, 22:46
A day to do 120km plus loading and unloading time... compare that with road or rail.... it would only make sense for bulk cargo.

Imagine the work that would be required to make the Irish canals viable for meaningful cargo barges.

Ghent is a lovely city though, visited there a few times for work.

For passenger (or cargo) traffic, rail only makes sense where you have high levels of utilisation, Irish Rail doesn’t generally get that as it is too slow and too expensive and lacks intermodality (Rosslare being an excellent example....who owns Rosslare Europort? .... Irish Rail !!). On some of the passenger lines, a minibus would be half full never mind a train but is that due to cost and speed?

I’m far from an advocate for loss making passenger (or cargo) rail services. .


Irish Rail once had two freignt yards in Cork. Both have now closed. One is still used for empty container storage. The sad fact is there is still huge capacity for freight on the Irish rail network. Few, if any passenger trains travel between midnight and 6am. You could move a lot of rail freight during this time, should you so desire.However Irish rail have disposed of most of the freight rolling stock.
Absolutely agree and how many more trucks does that mean have to be used


Again your reasoning for Cork being the largest port is incorrect. The majority of freight going through the port (if you discount Oil products from Whitegate) are containerised goods. Products going out are rarely manufactured in Cork city, though of course there is a large quantity that are, but these manufacturers are present because of proximity to Port. Port is not there because of proximity to manufacturers.
Some ofthe goods that go out could just as easily leave from any other port capable of taking such a vessel. Houshold waste for example, shipped out almost weekly.
Absolutely but that doesn’t necessarily mean that if you built a new port that companies will site there instead. They may but it is a risk, as a line will only put a vessel on a route if they have the utilisation.

The Ballina-Belview freight line is now gone.

Unfortunately Irish Rail are generally limited to max 36 TEUs long trains but imagine say 3 freight trains a night going into Dublin or Cork (or anywhere else).... over 100 less trucks into the cities a day

DeV
1st October 2018, 22:53
Irish rail continue to shut down lines with the Waterford Rosslare line being one of the most recent. Any development has to be cognisant of the fact that 95% of all freight is containerized and thus involves quite an amount of road haulage. The fragmented rail system would not allow for the centralized distribution of container traffic , thus increasing pressure on the road system. But how much of it is moved at night?

Don’t get me wrong I’m not suggesting freight trains from the 4 corners to Dublin.

Imagine the traffic on the artery roads into Dublin with 100 less trucks a day coming along say the N7, truck drops TEU at rail depot, that night it goes to the port via rail.

hptmurphy
2nd October 2018, 10:01
Don’t get me wrong I’m not suggesting freight trains from the 4 corners to Dublin.

Imagine the traffic on the artery roads into Dublin with 100 less trucks a day coming along say the N7, truck drops TEU at rail depot, that night it goes to the port via rail.

If it had been planned in line with the development of various ports the rail network would have been the ideal solution to reduce lorry traffic on the roads, but instead Irish rail did the exact opposite with an almost 'scorched earth ' policy intending that it would never be used again. So I can't see us re inventing the wheel on that one which suggests we need to be more innovative about planning our ports...but alas central government have no interest in this either.

DeV
2nd October 2018, 10:12
Fixed that for you :)

So I can't see us moving away from the square wheel on that one which suggests we need to at least have a basic back of a postage stamp plan for our infrastructure ...but alas no one has any interest in this either.

ancientmariner
2nd October 2018, 10:48
If it had been planned in line with the development of various ports the rail network would have been the ideal solution to reduce lorry traffic on the roads, but instead Irish rail did the exact opposite with an almost 'scorched earth ' policy intending that it would never be used again. So I can't see us re inventing the wheel on that one which suggests we need to be more innovative about planning our ports...but alas central government have no interest in this either.

Our problems are planners who do not think strategically and often are one trick ponies with little consideration of consequences or future collateral damage. We have several options- build three port hubs based on existing or new port areas-follow deep water and be afloat at all times. Minimise mixing heavy freight on motorways with passenger traffic by using a 24hr model with slots for traffic types. Again using a 24 hr model shift as much freight as possible by rail. Stop Council managers and their staffs from shutting down transport infrastructure without creating a historical and future impact study.
Create freight hubs outside cities and move goods by rail, tunnel, and 24hr time slots as required. Jamming roads with mixed traffic 6-10am and 4-7pm is questionable when there are 24hrs in the day.
When expanding ports we must use a multiplier when considering quay lengths eg 1000m will take 10 coasters,or 6 deep sea ships,or 3 large bulkers,
or 3 cruise liners. If the port wants to cater for all three then more quay space is required and queues may form or date based arrivals may have to be used especially Cruise liners who cannot hang about.
The Midleton-Youghal greenway is an act of vandalism promoted by CCC managers.

spider
3rd October 2018, 00:04
This is a good example of forward thinking in removing vehicle traffic from Scottish roads...all born out of an academic study into transport on inland waterways.

I'm not saying this is workable in an Irish context...but it shows what can be achieved by thinking outside the box -

http://www.greatglenshipping.co.uk/about-us/

GoneToTheCanner
3rd October 2018, 10:50
As an example of a small port being used for heavy freight, don't Leibherr in Kerry use Fenit to get cranes shipped out? Regarding Sligo Port, a friend of mine who is in the know up there told me that the Port barely ticks along, because it needs constant dredging and is too old, small and narrow, in a location that would be ideal for tourist ships.

ancientmariner
3rd October 2018, 17:39
As an example of a small port being used for heavy freight, don't Leibherr in Kerry use Fenit to get cranes shipped out? Regarding Sligo Port, a friend of mine who is in the know up there told me that the Port barely ticks along, because it needs constant dredging and is too old, small and narrow, in a location that would be ideal for tourist ships.

By and large Ports are what you make of them. 50 years ago Killybegs was just a name on the chart, now it is a deepwater port. Sligo suffers from lack of investment with fragmented short berthage . They need to get digging, reclaiming , and putting in quay extensions.
As we know Cork has been moving city to the estuary but something's not right. In the last couple of years we have ships waiting at anchor for berths. There were two this afternoon-a large bulker and a large bulk coaster. There are obvious handling problems and maybe a shortage of berths?
As regards Liebherr Two gantry cranes were loaded at the fitting out berths at Cork Dockyard earlier this year on to a specialist heavy lift ship.

trellheim
7th October 2018, 16:22
Foynes IIRC is looking for TEN-T funding

ancientmariner
7th October 2018, 20:49
Foynes IIRC is looking for TEN-T funding

The problem with the European Transport Network model is it's bias towards established Ports within major Road and Rail systems. If you couple that with The Governments Policy of no direct State financial aid , it means emerging Ports will find it difficult to grow to a viable mass. The Killybegs development is worth a study and perhaps be trialled elsewhere. All Nationally important services such as Ports, Communications, Transport, Justice systems, and Defence need to be nurtured by Government.

na grohmiti
7th October 2018, 20:59
What continues to amaze me is the size, and how busy Castletownbere is, while at the same time served by possibly the worst Regional road in the State. Daily hundreds, if not thousands of tonnes of fish are shipped by road from here to larger unitised freight ports, for transshipping to the spanish fish market.

<iframe src="https://www.google.com/maps/embed?pb=!4v1538939385935!6m8!1m7!1shsg_kzkb-FtOPyNHdjOf3w!2m2!1d51.66792630371463!2d-9.780569612597178!3f274.73748022665194!4f-11.816790305239251!5f0.7820865974627469" width="600" height="450" frameborder="0" style="border:0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

trellheim
7th October 2018, 23:19
The problem with the European Transport Network model is it's bias towards established Ports within major Road and Rail systems. If you couple that with The Governments Policy of no direct State financial aid , it means emerging Ports will find it difficult to grow to a viable mass. The Killybegs development is worth a study and perhaps be trialled elsewhere. All Nationally important services such as Ports, Communications, Transport, Justice systems, and Defence need to be nurtured by Government.

And thus you see a rail study for reopening on Foynes rail link plus a motorway extension see https://www.foyneslimerick.ie/ and https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-07-24/2199/

ancientmariner
8th October 2018, 10:29
And thus you see a rail study for reopening on Foynes rail link plus a motorway extension see https://www.foyneslimerick.ie/ and https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-07-24/2199/

Foynes is a port by a series of per chances. If I were picking a port it would have been low on the list of optimum sites. There is a long run in from the prevailing weather to LOOP HEAD and into and across BEAL BAR at the river entrance. There is a long run Northwards to Scattery pilotage, passing Tarbert rapid water and on to Foynes. Emergence of local Alumina, Coal Fired Power at Moneypoint, Offshore exploration, brought shipping. The effort now is to continue by development substitution with hope that it will find critical mass and markets. It reminds me of a middle East Oil Terminal with no shoreside for trapped crews. We used to berth there on the single stone berth to visit the childrens sanitorium with goodies etc. etc.

trellheim
8th October 2018, 11:24
Oh no I get all that, dont mistake this as anything other than an attempt to hoover up TEN-T fundinf

na grohmiti
8th October 2018, 11:29
Given that French Channel Ports have more or less been excluded from such funding, it is vital that any Irish port in a position to do so takes what advantage it can.

trellheim
8th October 2018, 11:42
TEN-T exclusion for French ports is a Brexit thing IIRC as correctly it will be mayhem so thats why Zeebrugge etc got the cash

na grohmiti
8th October 2018, 11:47
Yes, it is feared that the French ports would become over congested as freight and passengers await customs and immigration controls.

ancientmariner
10th December 2018, 10:58
Of interest to current and future Naval operations is the adequacy of Irish ports to support general Naval deployments and operations. In the National Maritime policy documents and Harbour Acts together with the Mission of the Irish Maritime Development Office there is no mention of the existence of a navy and it's deployment needs in peace or war.
There is also no mention of the need to provide for repair and maintenance of ships or the need to nurture and encourage a shipbuilding industry. In general our ports are in catharsis, getting rid of elements of traditional port usages , abandoning port areas to developers, and making little effort to provide for redacted facilities.
In a nut shell we need ports not dependent on tides or lock gates, with unobstructed quay walls with depths ranging from 5m LWS to 12m LWS to accommodate most trades or visiting ships including Naval vessels.
I was impressed to see the devlopment of Killybegs harbour with sufficient deep water berthage at 12m LWS to have TWO Cruise liners alongside, at the same time, and surprised not to see it listed as important in Government documents outlining the pecking order of Ports.
Our Port development needs more control and oversight to maintain use by all types of ships and cargo including liquids. Care must be taken not to allow preemptive decisions that may exclude traditional use or exclude public access to visiting Naval Vessels

We are now in the midst of Seminars on marine Spatial planning. There is always a worry that it does NOT mean better for ships, ports, maintenance or expansion. The Irish register for ships is an interesting document made up of vessels that ploy regularly around an island country such as FV's, ferries, Ro-ro's and some coasters. They expanded it in 2014 to include Jet-skies, other recreational craft, ghillie boats, visitors craft, and most anything that moves on water. The idea is a renewable register every ten years with fines for non-compliance, as a fee is payable for registration.It will be policed by all state officials including Naval Officers and Irish Coast Guard. We pick hanging fruit but close down drydocks, shipbuilding and repair.
The latest proposal is to spend E 300m to create a super container transshipment port in the Shannon Estuary and use it as a feeder service for smaller ships to other ports. Shannon is a weather port, exposed to the S'Westerlies, and plugged by a narrow Beal bar entrance. You need to be sure of many things including safe waiting anchorages for involved ships.
Finally in the documents surrounding the Irish register there are NO worldwide Irish flagged ships included.

TangoSierra
18th December 2018, 23:08
https://www.independent.ie/life/travel/ireland/absolute-disaster-for-the-southeast-as-irish-ferries-unlikely-to-operate-france-service-next-year-from-rosslare-37639011.html

Further consolidation of everything to Dublin!

DeV
18th December 2018, 23:36
https://www.independent.ie/life/travel/ireland/absolute-disaster-for-the-southeast-as-irish-ferries-unlikely-to-operate-france-service-next-year-from-rosslare-37639011.html

Further consolidation of everything to Dublin!

The stupidity

na grohmiti
18th December 2018, 23:46
https://www.independent.ie/life/travel/ireland/absolute-disaster-for-the-southeast-as-irish-ferries-unlikely-to-operate-france-service-next-year-from-rosslare-37639011.html

Further consolidation of everything to Dublin!

Or:
Great news for Brittany Ferries who recently expanded their routes from Cork, sailing twice weekly to both France* and Spain. (*France summer season only, Spain all year round)

Rosslare to Cherbourg with Irish Ferries was 18 hours.
Dublin to Cherbourg 19 hours Weekly.
Stena, Rosslare to Cherbourg 3 times a week 17 hours duration.
Brittany ferries, Cork to Roscoff is 16 hours, twice a week.

I'd be willing to suggest that the delays to the new cruise ferry has hit the pocket hard, and Brexit may see extra costs on the UK routes, so Irish Ferries have made an economic decision to close a route that was not competitive. The ship serving Rosslare-Pembroke was due to be replaced with the ship that currently operates from Dublin was due to move to Rosslare as the new WB Yeats in turn replaced the ship that was then to operate the shorter route to france from Rosslare. I'd be willing to further suggest that they will shortly offer more routes on the costier UK route. Price increases will merely be put down to "Brexit", and the sheep will pay. They may even sell one of the ships out of service completely. A healthy market for second hand ferries at present.


Irish Ferries have been operating without any integrity or loyalty to its irish customers since it chose to dump the Irish port of registry for its fleet, which are now registered in Cyprus. It ditched its irish crew around the same time, instead now employing crews who do not work under EU rules regarding pay and conditions of employment. Its newest vessel is due to arrive, finally, from the builders to Rosslare tomorrow.

CTU
19th December 2018, 02:09
I'd be willing to suggest that the delays to the new cruise ferry has hit the pocket hard, and Brexit may see extra costs on the UK routes, so Irish Ferries have made an economic decision to close a route that was not competitive. The ship serving Rosslare-Pembroke was due to be replaced with the ship that currently operates from Dublin was due to move to Rosslare as the new WB Yeats in turn replaced the ship that was then to operate the shorter route to france from Rosslare. I'd be willing to further suggest that they will shortly offer more routes on the costier UK route. Price increases will merely be put down to "Brexit", and the sheep will pay. They may even sell one of the ships out of service completely. A healthy market for second hand ferries at present.


I thought the plan was for the New Vessel "WB Yeats" to replace the "Epsilon" (which is on charter) on the Dublin - Holyhead / Dublin - France routes Until their Planned Second New Vessel (which they have an option on) would come on stream to do this Dublin - France all year round with the WB Yeats then going full time on Dublin - Holyhead along with the Ulysses to match Stena's capacity on the route. It seems they now plan on the new vessel doing Dublin - France full time and keep the Epsilon on Dublin - Holyhead route with Ulysses until they make their mind up on the proposed Second new vessel.

If you read between the line in the Tweets they sent about it looks like they made this decision based on what the freight companies wanted while keeping their options open with Brexit and are ignoring the passenger's who seem to prefer the Rosslare Route.

DeV
19th December 2018, 08:20
Or:
Great news for Brittany Ferries who recently expanded their routes from Cork, sailing twice weekly to both France* and Spain. (*France summer season only, Spain all year round)

Rosslare to Cherbourg with Irish Ferries was 18 hours.
Dublin to Cherbourg 19 hours Weekly.
Stena, Rosslare to Cherbourg 3 times a week 17 hours duration.
Brittany ferries, Cork to Roscoff is 16 hours, twice a week.

I'd be willing to suggest that the delays to the new cruise ferry has hit the pocket hard, and Brexit may see extra costs on the UK routes, so Irish Ferries have made an economic decision to close a route that was not competitive. The ship serving Rosslare-Pembroke was due to be replaced with the ship that currently operates from Dublin was due to move to Rosslare as the new WB Yeats in turn replaced the ship that was then to operate the shorter route to france from Rosslare. I'd be willing to further suggest that they will shortly offer more routes on the costier UK route. Price increases will merely be put down to "Brexit", and the sheep will pay. They may even sell one of the ships out of service completely. A healthy market for second hand ferries at present.


Irish Ferries have been operating without any integrity or loyalty to its irish customers since it chose to dump the Irish port of registry for its fleet, which are now registered in Cyprus. It ditched its irish crew around the same time, instead now employing crews who do not work under EU rules regarding pay and conditions of employment. Its newest vessel is due to arrive, finally, from the builders to Rosslare tomorrow.

The more route options and services the better

Especially if the land bridge is restricted/causes delays

Laners
19th December 2018, 09:26
The new ship is scheduled for an 18 hour crossing from Dublin to Cherbourg

ancientmariner
19th December 2018, 10:17
The new ship is scheduled for an 18 hour crossing from Dublin to Cherbourg

most of the Directors of Irish Ferries are "bean counters" FCA, ACA, ACCA, with the job of maintaining cash and NOT tradition or reliability. There is NO salt water or National pride. It harbingers the demise of most companies when they get loose. Flag out and Crew out.!!

Bravo20
19th December 2018, 13:00
If you read between the line in the Tweets they sent about it looks like they made this decision based on what the freight companies wanted while keeping their options open with Brexit and are ignoring the passenger's who seem to prefer the Rosslare Route.

The freight companies don't seem to be too happy about this either. There was a representative of the road hauliers association on the radio this morning complaining about this and was wondering which customers they actually asked.

From my own companies point of view we ship all our goods to Europe via Rosslare and are anticipating a decrease in availability due to an increase in demand for this route post Brexit.

This does not make sense from a business point of view. Very short sighted.

ancientmariner
19th December 2018, 14:11
The freight companies don't seem to be too happy about this either. There was a representative of the road hauliers association on the radio this morning complaining about this and was wondering which customers they actually asked.

From my own companies point of view we ship all our goods to Europe via Rosslare and are anticipating a decrease in availability due to an increase in demand for this route post Brexit.

This does not make sense from a business point of view. Very short sighted.

My mother said there is always a reason behind every telegraphed choice. Since this company is short on Maritime Sensibility they may have made wrong ship choice in choosing new tonnage. Perhaps the ships in question don't fit Rosslare facilities. Pity, after the State built up the port to suit ICL as it was then.

CTU
19th December 2018, 14:52
Looking on the announcement on twitter all they have said is that it is "unlikely" to run in 2019 but they are keeping it "under review" so I am coming to the conclusion that thanks to the delays with the new ship that they can't crew all the ships so are sacrificing the Oscar Wilde.

I wouldn't be surprised if come easter time they will announce the the Epsilon will take over Rosslare - France with the WB Yeats doing Dublin - Holyhead during the week and Dublin - France at the weekend (like the Epsilon has been doing the last few years) until they make a decision on the second new vessel they have the option on. Whatever happens I would say the Oscar Wilde time is coming to an end.

DeV
19th December 2018, 20:18
most of the Directors of Irish Ferries are "bean counters" FCA, ACA, ACCA, with the job of maintaining cash and NOT tradition or reliability. There is NO salt water or National pride. It harbingers the demise of most companies when they get loose. Flag out and Crew out.!!

Tradition has no place in this type of decision.

Supply and demand does.... if anything demand is likely to increase so it seems to be a very strange suggestion .... unless there are operational reasons or something more .... let’s be kind and say suggestive

Are they looking for something to be subsidised, grants, investment, a PSO on the route etc





Stena do a 3 times a week service to Cherbourg from Rosslare

According to the Irish Ferries website they aren’t currently sailing to France from Rosslare (could be just the week that is in it or is it seasonal?)?

Neptune Lines also offer a weekly Rosslare-France-UK-Spain service (appears to be for oversized cargo, cars etc) http://www.neptunelines.com/article/187/neptune-lines-expands-network-uk-and-ireland

spider
19th December 2018, 23:04
You may have seen this website...its anoraky but he puts a lot of work into it...

https://www.niferry.co.uk/

He seems pretty well informed on the comings and goings of Irish Sea Ferries.

ancientmariner
23rd December 2018, 11:16
Tradition has no place in this type of decision.

Supply and demand does.... if anything demand is likely to increase so it seems to be a very strange suggestion .... unless there are operational reasons or something more .... let’s be kind and say suggestive

Are they looking for something to be subsidised, grants, investment, a PSO on the route etc





Stena do a 3 times a week service to Cherbourg from Rosslare

According to the Irish Ferries website they aren’t currently sailing to France from Rosslare (could be just the week that is in it or is it seasonal?)?

Neptune Lines also offer a weekly Rosslare-France-UK-Spain service (appears to be for oversized cargo, cars etc) http://www.neptunelines.com/article/187/neptune-lines-expands-network-uk-and-ireland


The ship they are selling, or have sold, is logistical imbalanced , too many foot passengers, and not enough vehicle space. Decisions on viability of ships is crucial . Cash rich companies, managed by financiers, saw demise of those companies , often by buying "Deal ships" , like Blue Funnel and Irish Shipping to mention Two.
We are an Island country about to be isolated to a standard comparable to the emergency. Who will determine our needs and fulfill the demand . In wartime it was a consortium of Old traditional shipping companies and a Master Mariner from Reardon Smiths John O'Neill. What now!!

ancientmariner
23rd December 2018, 11:25
The ship they are selling, or have sold, is logistical imbalanced , too many foot passengers, and not enough vehicle space. Decisions on viability of ships is crucial . Cash rich companies, managed by financiers, saw demise of those companies , often by buying "Deal ships" , like Blue Funnel and Irish Shipping to mention Two.
We are an Island country about to be isolated to a standard comparable to the emergency. Who will determine our needs and fulfill the demand . In wartime it was a consortium of Old traditional shipping companies and a Master Mariner from Reardon Smiths John O'Neill. What now!!

Just noticed "Log In " time of my msg. is 1116 which is + 1 hr?? Is there a clock on the site?

EUFighter
23rd December 2018, 17:56
The ship they are selling, or have sold, is logistical imbalanced , too many foot passengers, and not enough vehicle space. Decisions on viability of ships is crucial . Cash rich companies, managed by financiers, saw demise of those companies , often by buying "Deal ships" , like Blue Funnel and Irish Shipping to mention Two.
We are an Island country about to be isolated to a standard comparable to the emergency. Who will determine our needs and fulfill the demand . In wartime it was a consortium of Old traditional shipping companies and a Master Mariner from Reardon Smiths John O'Neill. What now!!

Plus the Oscar Wilde is now 31 years old so coming to the end of its useful service life serving north European markets.
It will be interesting to see if Seatruck moves any ship from cross-channel routes to more direct routes to mainland Europe.

na grohmiti
23rd December 2018, 18:43
Just noticed "Log In " time of my msg. is 1116 which is + 1 hr?? Is there a clock on the site?

Current site time is 17.42

DeV
28th December 2018, 10:21
Foynes plans LoLo from next year
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/brexit-role-advanced-for-shannon-foynes-port-1.3741659?mode=amp

ancientmariner
28th December 2018, 11:27
Foynes plans LoLo from next year
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/brexit-role-advanced-for-shannon-foynes-port-1.3741659?mode=amp

In order to make Foynes a major container port the State would have to reclaim lands to the N'eastrly side of the present bulk berths. Install harbour infrastructure and handling facilities, dredge the northern mud blockages to create an entry channel in the South and an exit to the Northern side of Foynes Island. The road out of Foynes has a number of small fixed bridges over streams and would need to be certified suitable for continuous road container traffic. I think the visualisation of the proponents would take investments close to a billion+ to achieve. In any event, whatever is decided , it should be on the East Bank of the river to save dragging cargo through Limerick.

na grohmiti
28th December 2018, 11:28
Any Movement on the LNG terminal outside Tarbert by the way?
Foynes has a lot going for it, but the infastructure around LoLo is not something that just appears overnight. The Road to foynes is particularly unsuitable for large volumes of heavy traffic that comes with LoLo. Combine that with the reluctance of the main carriers to travel too far from the main shipping lanes, even when loading and discharging.
Bellview lost out because it was too far from the sea. Port of Cork is moving downstream to deal with the same issue. Ships are getting bigger but times are getting tighter too for turnaround.
Their only hope is to entice the Transatlantic lines to divert up the shannon en route to and from European ports.

DeV
28th December 2018, 11:58
A weekly LoLo feeder to another European ocean vessel port would be a major start

ancientmariner
28th December 2018, 17:55
A weekly LoLo feeder to another European ocean vessel port would be a major start

The major European ports for services from Ireland would be ROTTERDAM or FELIXSTOWE. If we were considering an Irish Port as a feeder to a variety of European container ports then we should be aiming to get vessels, otherwise heading to Europe, to land in Ireland for feeding on to the continent, ideally by Irish ships. I did a little stint on MV Wicklow taking containers from Dublin to Rotterdam . They also had the KILKENNY until it collided with an outbound container vessel HASSELWERDER. Right now we have nothing but we still plan on the assumption that someone else will do it for us. The Governments stated policy on port development is Laissez-faire on projects or fit them with financial brakes that makes them meaningless .

na grohmiti
28th December 2018, 18:10
Any chance we could convince Arklow Shipping to start operating container ships? They seem to be doing well in the Bulk trade, and still maintain Irish Flag and Port of registry on most of their fleet.

Sluggie
29th December 2018, 02:05
In order to make Foynes a major container port the State would have to reclaim lands to the N'eastrly side of the present bulk berths. Install harbour infrastructure and handling facilities, dredge the northern mud blockages to create an entry channel in the South and an exit to the Northern side of Foynes Island. The road out of Foynes has a number of small fixed bridges over streams and would need to be certified suitable for continuous road container traffic. I think the visualisation of the proponents would take investments close to a billion+ to achieve. In any event, whatever is decided , it should be on the East Bank of the river to save dragging cargo through Limerick.

The plan is to build 16km of motorway from Patrickswell to Rathkeale. This will bypass Adare to the north instead of the original plan which went to the south of the village but didn't get planning. By taking the road to the north it will run closer to the coast road (N69). They will then build a new 15.5km grade-separated single carriageway (GSSC) road directly to Foynes port. A HGV leaving Foynes port in 2024 should travel only 15.5 km on high-quality single carriageway (with no junctions, just flyovers and underpasses. No villages) before joining the motorway and access to Galway, Shannon, Dublin, Belfast etc.

Details and a map can be found here:

http://www.irishmotorwayinfo.com/inex/roads/m21/m21.html

The new road from the M21 to Foynes is marked in Green. By 2124 the M20 might even reach Cork.

Sluggie
29th December 2018, 02:15
Any Movement on the LNG terminal outside Tarbert by the way?


Huge progress at last in August:

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/long-delayed-500m-gas-terminal-on-shannon-estuary-back-on-after-deal-struck-37248932.html

More NIMBY shite in October:

https://greennews.ie/leave-granted-high-court-challenge-proposed-e500-million-gas-terminal-co-kerry/

DeV
29th December 2018, 09:17
The major European ports for services from Ireland would be ROTTERDAM or FELIXSTOWE. If we were considering an Irish Port as a feeder to a variety of European container ports then we should be aiming to get vessels, otherwise heading to Europe, to land in Ireland for feeding on to the continent, ideally by Irish ships. I did a little stint on MV Wicklow taking containers from Dublin to Rotterdam . They also had the KILKENNY until it collided with an outbound container vessel HASSELWERDER. Right now we have nothing but we still plan on the assumption that someone else will do it for us. The Governments stated policy on port development is Laissez-faire on projects or fit them with financial brakes that makes them meaningless .

A ocean LoLo service to Ireland is only viable if there will be a few hundred containers transhipped on every sailing and of course that there is more than 1 service calling at the port.

ancientmariner
29th December 2018, 11:17
A ocean LoLo service to Ireland is only viable if there will be a few hundred containers transhipped on every sailing and of course that there is more than 1 service calling at the port.

The Ocean Containership similar to Maersk or to the Chinese COSCO will carry up to 20,000 TEU's ( 20ft ) or 10,000 2/TEU's ( 40ft). They would be handled by a container loading/unloading facility having a single berth with 6 container cranes to cover dispersal of container units on or off a 900ft vessel. The port facility needs storage for containers arriving by road/rail and waiting to be loaded also facilities for containers arriving by ship and awaiting clearance and shipping to another destination. If you are to hande two ships at a time then two berths would need 12 container cranes.
Feeder services to other ports would also impact on a further provision of suitable berthing and handling facilities. Initial costs would be eye watering. But we should consider it.

na grohmiti
29th December 2018, 12:06
Was talking to a Merchant Master earlier this week and he is of the opinion Superships like the AP Moller-Maersk E class or Coscos have reached critical mass. (Much like the oil supertankers of the 80s that all ended up being converted to floating storage). They were built to ship what was basically a glut of chinese mail order goods, and that trade has waned. Much of their trade now is carrying empty boxes back to where they are in short supply. Few ports have facilities to handle them and port operating costs are excessively high. Many ports that accept these ships do not have cranes with reach capable of removing all containers, so the ship is either loaded to accomodate these cranes, or moved during loading/unloading. Neither option is economical. When built they also boasted of being able to achieve the same high speeds as smaller vessels of type, however soon after their owners ordered captains to cut back the speed, as the faster ships were just spending longer at layby waiting for a suitable unloading/loading berth to become available.
To reduce costs, one of the UK container ports that can accept these ships now does so without harbour pilots. It was an extra cost that the shipowners wanted to do without. They demanded no pilot, or else they would take their ships elsewhere.
The Largest container ship currently visiting Cork is 3800 TEU. (All Refrigerated) This type of ship visits once a week with fruit from Central America. However smaller feeder ships visit more frequently, with a capacity of just over 1000TEU.
To accept larger ships you also need an infastructure that can handle the volume of containers needed to feed the larger ships. We rely on all our TEU freight arriving by road. A road that is already well over capacity and bursting at the seams.
Irish rail got rid of their TEU carrying rolling stock.
Rotterdam sees as much containers arriving by barge using inland waterways as it does by road.
Its called intermodality and Ireland does not do it.

ancientmariner
29th December 2018, 13:42
Was talking to a Merchant Master earlier this week and he is of the opinion Superships like the AP Moller-Maersk E class or Coscos have reached critical mass. (Much like the oil supertankers of the 80s that all ended up being converted to floating storage). They were built to ship what was basically a glut of chinese mail order goods, and that trade has waned. Much of their trade now is carrying empty boxes back to where they are in short supply. Few ports have facilities to handle them and port operating costs are excessively high. Many ports that accept these ships do not have cranes with reach capable of removing all containers, so the ship is either loaded to accomodate these cranes, or moved during loading/unloading. Neither option is economical. When built they also boasted of being able to achieve the same high speeds as smaller vessels of type, however soon after their owners ordered captains to cut back the speed, as the faster ships were just spending longer at layby waiting for a suitable unloading/loading berth to become available.
To reduce costs, one of the UK container ports that can accept these ships now does so without harbour pilots. It was an extra cost that the shipowners wanted to do without. They demanded no pilot, or else they would take their ships elsewhere.
The Largest container ship currently visiting Cork is 3800 TEU. (All Refrigerated) This type of ship visits once a week with fruit from Central America. However smaller feeder ships visit more frequently, with a capacity of just over 1000TEU.
To accept larger ships you also need an infastructure that can handle the volume of containers needed to feed the larger ships. We rely on all our TEU freight arriving by road. A road that is already well over capacity and bursting at the seams.
Irish rail got rid of their TEU carrying rolling stock.
Rotterdam sees as much containers arriving by barge using inland waterways as it does by road.
Its called intermodality and Ireland does not do it.

Most of world trade is carried by sea. It is the case from time to time that overcapacity of carriage availability is caused as ships get bigger and bigger. However the backbone of trade will be designed to stay within parameters that will allow it to Transit the Suez and Panama canals. Because a trinity of big players corner the market small inland countries, and small Island Nations like us, are at the costly end of the supply chain with our cargo passing through a field of handlers putting up costs and prices. We must get back to irish flagged ships like Bells and B+I and have sensible container ports for own requirements and also evaluate whether we can become a feeder base, handling larger TEU Vessels. Pilotage deals were always there for habitual ships like ferries and naval ships but some money MUST be paid or the port goes under.

na grohmiti
29th December 2018, 15:46
I understand the ships getting a pilotage exemption do so, not because, as is usually the case, their captains are frequent port visitors, but because the company has faith in the ships auto pilot bringing it to berth safely.

Make of that what you will.
You may remember that Bell were groundbreakers in the trade at the time with some of their ships. In particular being the first to have hatchless holds aft of the accomodation, which was to the ships fore.
I believe their demise came about due to costs of repairs to the port that was in their ownership.

ancientmariner
29th December 2018, 16:30
I understand the ships getting a pilotage exemption do so, not because, as is usually the case, their captains are frequent port visitors, but because the company has faith in the ships auto pilot bringing it to berth safely.

Make of that what you will.
You may remember that Bell were groundbreakers in the trade at the time with some of their ships. In particular being the first to have hatchless holds aft of the accomodation, which was to the ships fore.
I believe their demise came about due to costs of repairs to the port that was in their ownership.

just as a matter of fact , an auto pilot only steers a course manually inserted by human hand.It replaces the quartermaster on passage. Generally, except on long river passages, steering in Port is done by a qualified helmsman. In Irish ports pilotage charges are compulsory.

DeV
29th December 2018, 19:56
The Ocean Containership similar to Maersk or to the Chinese COSCO will carry up to 20,000 TEU's ( 20ft ) or 10,000 2/TEU's ( 40ft). They would be handled by a container loading/unloading facility having a single berth with 6 container cranes to cover dispersal of container units on or off a 900ft vessel. The port facility needs storage for containers arriving by road/rail and waiting to be loaded also facilities for containers arriving by ship and awaiting clearance and shipping to another destination. If you are to hande two ships at a time then two berths would need 12 container cranes.
Feeder services to other ports would also impact on a further provision of suitable berthing and handling facilities. Initial costs would be eye watering. But we should consider it.

Absolutely but that isn’t the point I’m making

Dublin Port handles approaching 700,000 TEUs annually and is our biggest LoLo port. A good portion of them will be short
Sea to various European ports which is fine but we are talking about ocean vessels. The final destinations are all over the world.

For example, if your container is going from Dublin to Norfolk VA, one of your options is ACL from Liverpool to Norfolk (it makes 3 other stops within Europe and 3 others within North America). ACL is not going to add/change one of those ports to Foynes/Cork unless there is demand for imports/exports on every sailing for at the very least a few hundred containers. That could be every week or 2. Their customers in the rest of Europe and the US may not be best pleased about the transit time being increased by probably a day on every sailing. But that is only 1 service and would be insufficient to warrant the development of a new deep water port. Your also going to have to have ocean vessels destined for the Far East, Africa etc etc and sufficient demand on every sailing to justify it.

From an importer/exporter perspective, with much of it being done from the Greater Dublin area, depending on the INCOTERM I’m going to have to pay to Road or rail x TEUs per week to Foynes/Cork to create that demand.

It is in the National State Interests to have a deep water ocean port absolutely but unless the demand is there for ocean lines to justify including it on their services it will be empty. It makes strategic sense but not commercial

ancientmariner
30th December 2018, 09:49
Absolutely but that isn’t the point I’m making

Dublin Port handles approaching 700,000 TEUs annually and is our biggest LoLo port. A good portion of them will be short
Sea to various European ports which is fine but we are talking about ocean vessels. The final destinations are all over the world.

For example, if your container is going from Dublin to Norfolk VA, one of your options is ACL from Liverpool to Norfolk (it makes 3 other stops within Europe and 3 others within North America). ACL is not going to add/change one of those ports to Foynes/Cork unless there is demand for imports/exports on every sailing for at the very least a few hundred containers. That could be every week or 2. Their customers in the rest of Europe and the US may not be best pleased about the transit time being increased by probably a day on every sailing. But that is only 1 service and would be insufficient to warrant the development of a new deep water port. Your also going to have to have ocean vessels destined for the Far East, Africa etc etc and sufficient demand on every sailing to justify it.

From an importer/exporter perspective, with much of it being done from the Greater Dublin area, depending on the INCOTERM I’m going to have to pay to Road or rail x TEUs per week to Foynes/Cork to create that demand.

It is in the National State Interests to have a deep water ocean port absolutely but unless the demand is there for ocean lines to justify including it on their services it will be empty. It makes strategic sense but not commercial

Was just indicating the cost of upping our game. The Shannon protagonists are proposing cargo/container handling that would ideally see Ireland providing a Felixstowe type facility to make us a European Terminal with feeder Services to Europe and export services Worldwide . I wouldn't put it there myself but wherever it goes it needs shelter, easy pilotage, deep water, good communication road and rail, deep pockets, and a professional planner. In general if you build a workable facility it will attract traffic. Ireland as a geographic first stop to Europe could be attractive as it costs to bring the big container ships to Europort. Norway which is more out of the way than us , same population, has 16,000,000 tonnes of shipping with 1400 vessels, while we have less than a 100. If we continually accept our tin mug status then we are goosed.

na grohmiti
30th December 2018, 10:18
The elephant in the room here is that Norway is not an island. We are an island off europe without any land link to europe (and no hope of ever getting one).

ancientmariner
30th December 2018, 11:52
The elephant in the room here is that Norway is not an island. We are an island off europe without any land link to europe (and no hope of ever getting one).

Just pointing out that small countries can be significant like Norway in World Wide shipping, and Denmark with the biggest container Fleet in the world with assets of 61 billion. Their populations compare to us, and their growth came from seafarers with vision and pride. We are stuck with financiers loading the wobbly donkey. Our Atlantic position has to be significant in commerce and in European Defence. We have never grasped the fact that we will always be islanders and we MUST Trade to survive and Grow.

Flamingo
30th December 2018, 16:52
Would a port on the West of Ireland with the kind of volume to make it commercially feasible be viable with the kind of weather that regularly hits from the Atlantic?

EUFighter
31st December 2018, 00:39
Would a port on the West of Ireland with the kind of volume to make it commercially feasible be viable with the kind of weather that regularly hits from the Atlantic?

If the population distribution is looked at there is very little likelihood that the volume would be there to make it viable. And the resources needed would be better utilised on the South or East coast ports.

As a side note I just took a screen shot of the current traffic situation in NW Europe. What can be seen is that we are a long way from the main shipping routes so any idea of developing a transhipment model like that of Singapore just will no go. And as for one of the large container ships like the OOCL Hong Kong are not going to divert out of their way to tranship through any of out ports.
8618

Jetjock
31st December 2018, 01:02
The elephant in the room here is that Norway is not an island. We are an island off europe without any land link to europe (and no hope of ever getting one).

Not so much of a hindrance as you might expect. Malta Freeport handles over 3 million TEU's per anum. On a small island without road links.

Regarding intermodal, the railway line to Foynes from Limerick, whilst inactive has been left in situ awaiting upgrade and reactivation. It will allow a rail link with Dublin Port among others.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-07-24/2199/

ancientmariner
1st January 2019, 11:01
Not so much of a hindrance as you might expect. Malta Freeport handles over 3 million TEU's per anum. On a small island without road links.

Regarding intermodal, the railway line to Foynes from Limerick, whilst inactive has been left in situ awaiting upgrade and reactivation. It will allow a rail link with Dublin Port among others.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-07-24/2199/

Our National maritime capacity and related strategic infrastructures together with the expertise to run Maritime Ireland are fragmented, dismantled in areas, and projects are subject to hand-out financing by politicians and varied depending on expediencies. I was almost fifty years at sea and saw the demise of Limerick Steamship Company, Cork Steampacket Company, B+I Line, Irish Shipping Ltd.,Bell RO-RO, Verholme Cork Shipbuilders, Dublin Dockyards, Dublin Drydocks, and few Ports have improved greatly except single use facilities like Moneypoint, one berth in Foynes, and minor berthage in Dublin to suit Ferry types. The advent of Cruise ships has brought life to Killybegs, and change of use port facilities in Dublin. We are messers operating with NO national awareness or sense of direction. Boards won't solve it as they are made up of the industry which they serve. The vision seems to get blurred and matters founder on delay and lack of certainty.

DeV
1st January 2019, 13:11
Our National maritime capacity and related strategic infrastructures together with the expertise to run Maritime Ireland are fragmented, dismantled in areas, and projects are subject to hand-out financing by politicians and varied depending on expediencies. I was almost fifty years at sea and saw the demise of Limerick Steamship Company, Cork Steampacket Company, B+I Line, Irish Shipping Ltd.,Bell RO-RO, Verholme Cork Shipbuilders, Dublin Dockyards, Dublin Drydocks, and few Ports have improved greatly except single use facilities like Moneypoint, one berth in Foynes, and minor berthage in Dublin to suit Ferry types. The advent of Cruise ships has brought life to Killybegs, and change of use port facilities in Dublin. We are messers operating with NO national awareness or sense of direction. Boards won't solve it as they are made up of the industry which they serve. The vision seems to get blurred and matters founder on delay and lack of certainty.
Just like every other area of Government

na grohmiti
1st January 2019, 13:34
Our National maritime capacity and related strategic infrastructures together with the expertise to run Maritime Ireland are fragmented, dismantled in areas, and projects are subject to hand-out financing by politicians and varied depending on expediencies. I was almost fifty years at sea and saw the demise of Limerick Steamship Company, Cork Steampacket Company, B+I Line, Irish Shipping Ltd.,Bell RO-RO, Verholme Cork Shipbuilders, Dublin Dockyards, Dublin Drydocks, and few Ports have improved greatly except single use facilities like Moneypoint, one berth in Foynes, and minor berthage in Dublin to suit Ferry types. The advent of Cruise ships has brought life to Killybegs, and change of use port facilities in Dublin. We are messers operating with NO national awareness or sense of direction. Boards won't solve it as they are made up of the industry which they serve. The vision seems to get blurred and matters founder on delay and lack of certainty.

Well said.
There is a trend in the last 30 years, maybe longer to close operating ports and convert their quaysides to waterside apartment blocks, devoid of usable berthage. I can remember when the Guinness ships and usually one of the ILS vessels could be seen tied up downriver from the Custom House, towards the Gasometer. During the Boat show at the Point Depot, visiting merchant ships would jam the working quays outside on the North Wall. Now the best you can hope for is a solitary naval visitor on John Rogersons Quay. The quays have been gentrified, at the expense of working ships. The same is happening in Grand Canal Dock, once a working dockside, now trying to eradicate anything resembling a working watercraft from its environs. Former dockside warehousing and silos are let go derelict, then demolished, without any relocation of such warehousing.
Similarily, in Cork, the Tivoli docks area is in the process of being shut down. Reclaimed from the sea in the 60s, by the 70s it had a Container terminal, a RORO ferry berth, a bulk loading jetty and seperate jetties for Oil products and LPG, with the specialised storage tanks these products require. The Oil jetty was shut down about 20 years ago. The storage tanks removed 10 years ago. The Bulk loading terminal closed down 5 years ago, and its cargo handling equipment was sold to the highest bidder. The ferry terminal moved downstream in the 80s, but the ramp remains. With the expansion of Ringaskiddy, it is expected that the remaining Container and LPG terminal will be closed by 2020. There does not seem to be any plans for where the LPG terminal will move to though. Presumably back to Whitegate (Near fort Davis) where the current Calor depot is, adding to the Heavy traffic n the unsuitable minor road that links whitegate Oil refinery to the rest of the State.
Look around the coastline. So many former once busy cargo quays out of use, allowed fall into disrepair before being converted into nice expensive waterside apartments, offices and restaurants. Elsewhere in Mainland Europe, and even the UK, similar sized quaysides are fully operational, serving nearby industries such as Pharma or even Construction. Many of these quays are a long way upstream from the sea. In ireland there is a mentality that an upstream harbour is there only for pleasure boating, and serves no other commercial purpose.
In the UK I have been on ships that bring cargo to places like Howdendyke and Goole, near Leeds, and Gunness near S****horpe, both off the Humber. Both about 50 miles from the sea. Numerous harbours off The Wash such as Boston and Sutton Bridge, All capable of handling large cargo ships of all types, in spite of the silting that these rivers are subject to. Most often seen are the types that also operate on the European waterways, designed to fit easily under the many bridges of the Rhine.

But we don't need ports in ireland it seems, because sure nothing we need comes by sea....

ancientmariner
2nd January 2019, 10:11
Well said.

Look around the coastline. So many former once busy cargo quays out of use, allowed fall into disrepair before being converted into nice expensive waterside apartments, offices and restaurants. Elsewhere in Mainland Europe, and even the UK, similar sized quaysides are fully operational, serving nearby industries such as Pharma or even Construction. Many of these quays are a long way upstream from the sea. In ireland there is a mentality that an upstream harbour is there only for pleasure boating, and serves no other commercial purpose.
In the UK I have been on ships that bring cargo to places like Howdendyke and Goole, near Leeds, and Gunness near S****horpe, both off the Humber. Both about 50 miles from the sea. Numerous harbours off The Wash such as Boston and Sutton Bridge, All capable of handling large cargo ships of all types, in spite of the silting that these rivers are subject to. Most often seen are the types that also operate on the European waterways, designed to fit easily under the many bridges of the Rhine.

But we don't need ports in ireland it seems, because sure nothing we need comes by sea....

Well said also. I was in Boston once with Dundalk Shipping ( nice crowd to work for-ex ISL connection). The last Maritime aware Statespeople we had were Lemass and Whitaker . Galway Docks has sought for over a century to expand to non-locked facilities. People forget that the publically funded GALWAY LINE ran a steam mail and passenger service to the United States in the 1800's. At one stage they held the Blue Riband for a fast crossing. A combination of no viable port and losing the Mail Contract saw the company taken over by White Star and it's successor's. The way forward is to hold discussion/planning meetings with the big players, Maersk, CMA etc. and get their reaction and needs on board. My theory is if you have a port nearer to your routes with feeder facilities it certainly may get used and could avoid the landbridge through the UK.

EUFighter
3rd January 2019, 02:01
From neutrality to the merchant marine, Lemass was they only one who was willing to do anything.

I remember someone saying "we are an island nation who stand on the beach and look inward" and it is very true. The state cannot make everything happen but there are many areas in which it can make a difference. I cannot remember every in the xx years I was in school every been taught anything related to our marine history or economic dependency. Never did I hear of the many great Irish naval commanders, of the "fathers of navies", of the role Irish Shipping Ltd played in keeping our island alive. The only mention of anything marine was of the Famine Death Ships. Many will never know that the mighty Royal Navy of Nelson was manned by a large number of Irishmen. All we get to see are now glossy brochures of fancy waterside apartments and the like. Although not all of this development is bad especially if the newer mode of marine transport is embraced.

We seem to have little fate in many of our leaders and managers yet if we look at the airline industry an Irish company carries the most passengers in the EU, an Irishman heads up the group that runs BA, IB and AL. And ICG which emerged from what remained of ISL has gone from strength to strength. But it needs more support, why did ICG feel the need to re-flag its ships? (rhetorical question)

We as a state founded the National Maritime College of Ireland, partly to train people for a maritime life but at the same time had a policy which drove the largest maritime employer to re-flag!!! With ISL they warning signs where there long before they went out of business, and 1984 was not a time when the state had a lot of spare cash but a chance was missed. The re-shaping of the Irish shipping industry should have taken place back then; a merging of ICG, B&I, Bell should have happened then, even if it was only state supported rather than state owned. Without a strong state support the market will drive business to take short term views rather than a long term strategic view.

There are two developments the state needs to get right at this time in our history. The first is the big Brexit issue, we will need to maintain a link to the UK market which will not totally disappear and we need to keep a cost effective link to the rest of the EU. For the former this will mean more customs checks and bonded storage at the eastern ports. As for the EU link there the options are more long term but the strategy should be as a minimum to allow freight to travel at same cost as today using the land bridge via the UK. These should be seen as opportunities rather than problems.

The next development is one where we are already behind the curve and need to accelerate and that is the off-shore renewable energy market. As a same island nation we have a great advantage when it come to wind, wave and tidal power. In fact if the government fails to get to give back the tax from Apple that amount could in theory be enough to install sufficient offshore wind to supply the state in terms of electrical demand! But policy and rules to enable this need to be strengthened. This will need new port facilities not only for the construction but also the maintenance and renewal of any off-shore facilities.

We need a new Lemass, a leader with vision and drive.

ancientmariner
3rd January 2019, 10:32
From neutrality to the merchant marine, Lemass was they only one who was willing to do anything.

I remember someone saying "we are an island nation who stand on the beach and look inward" and it is very true. The state cannot make everything happen but there are many areas in which it can make a difference. I cannot remember every in the xx years I was in school every been taught anything related to our marine history or economic dependency. Never did I hear of the many great Irish naval commanders, of the "fathers of navies", of the role Irish Shipping Ltd played in keeping our island alive. The only mention of anything marine was of the Famine Death Ships. Many will never know that the mighty Royal Navy of Nelson was manned by a large number of Irishmen. All we get to see are now glossy brochures of fancy waterside apartments and the like. Although not all of this development is bad especially if the newer mode of marine transport is embraced.

We seem to have little fate in many of our leaders and managers yet if we look at the airline industry an Irish company carries the most passengers in the EU, an Irishman heads up the group that runs BA, IB and AL. And ICG which emerged from what remained of ISL has gone from strength to strength. But it needs more support, why did ICG feel the need to re-flag its ships? (rhetorical question)

We as a state founded the National Maritime College of Ireland, partly to train people for a maritime life but at the same time had a policy which drove the largest maritime employer to re-flag!!! With ISL they warning signs where there long before they went out of business, and 1984 was not a time when the state had a lot of spare cash but a chance was missed. The re-shaping of the Irish shipping industry should have taken place back then; a merging of ICG, B&I, Bell should have happened then, even if it was only state supported rather than state owned. Without a strong state support the market will drive business to take short term views rather than a long term strategic view.

There are two developments the state needs to get right at this time in our history. The first is the big Brexit issue, we will need to maintain a link to the UK market which will not totally disappear and we need to keep a cost effective link to the rest of the EU. For the former this will mean more customs checks and bonded storage at the eastern ports. As for the EU link there the options are more long term but the strategy should be as a minimum to allow freight to travel at same cost as today using the land bridge via the UK. These should be seen as opportunities rather than problems.

The next development is one where we are already behind the curve and need to accelerate and that is the off-shore renewable energy market. As a same island nation we have a great advantage when it come to wind, wave and tidal power. In fact if the government fails to get to give back the tax from Apple that amount could in theory be enough to install sufficient offshore wind to supply the state in terms of electrical demand! But policy and rules to enable this need to be strengthened. This will need new port facilities not only for the construction but also the maintenance and renewal of any off-shore facilities.

We need a new Lemass, a leader with vision and drive.

Well said , quite monumental in breadth. There are amazing Irish born people. I was listening to a program extolling an Irish immigrant, suitably qualified, who went to the UK and joined Rolls Royce. In his time there he registered more than 60 patents and was largely responsible for supersonic flight and Vulcan type propulsion. He is a McMurty from Clontarf, Dublin. The UK will lose out if they implement Brexit preemptively.

DeV
4th January 2019, 14:15
https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=140156&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Development for Rosslare

spider
4th January 2019, 22:31
Well said.
There is a trend in the last 30 years, maybe longer to close operating ports and convert their quaysides to waterside apartment blocks, devoid of usable berthage. I can remember when the Guinness ships and usually one of the ILS vessels could be seen tied up downriver from the Custom House, towards the Gasometer. During the Boat show at the Point Depot, visiting merchant ships would jam the working quays outside on the North Wall. Now the best you can hope for is a solitary naval visitor on John Rogersons Quay. The quays have been gentrified, at the expense of working ships. The same is happening in Grand Canal Dock, once a working dockside, now trying to eradicate anything resembling a working watercraft from its environs. Former dockside warehousing and silos are let go derelict, then demolished, without any relocation of such warehousing.
Similarily, in Cork, the Tivoli docks area is in the process of being shut down. Reclaimed from the sea in the 60s, by the 70s it had a Container terminal, a RORO ferry berth, a bulk loading jetty and seperate jetties for Oil products and LPG, with the specialised storage tanks these products require. The Oil jetty was shut down about 20 years ago. The storage tanks removed 10 years ago. The Bulk loading terminal closed down 5 years ago, and its cargo handling equipment was sold to the highest bidder. The ferry terminal moved downstream in the 80s, but the ramp remains. With the expansion of Ringaskiddy, it is expected that the remaining Container and LPG terminal will be closed by 2020. There does not seem to be any plans for where the LPG terminal will move to though. Presumably back to Whitegate (Near fort Davis) where the current Calor depot is, adding to the Heavy traffic n the unsuitable minor road that links whitegate Oil refinery to the rest of the State.
Look around the coastline. So many former once busy cargo quays out of use, allowed fall into disrepair before being converted into nice expensive waterside apartments, offices and restaurants. Elsewhere in Mainland Europe, and even the UK, similar sized quaysides are fully operational, serving nearby industries such as Pharma or even Construction. Many of these quays are a long way upstream from the sea. In ireland there is a mentality that an upstream harbour is there only for pleasure boating, and serves no other commercial purpose.
In the UK I have been on ships that bring cargo to places like Howdendyke and Goole, near Leeds, and Gunness near S****horpe, both off the Humber. Both about 50 miles from the sea. Numerous harbours off The Wash such as Boston and Sutton Bridge, All capable of handling large cargo ships of all types, in spite of the silting that these rivers are subject to. Most often seen are the types that also operate on the European waterways, designed to fit easily under the many bridges of the Rhine.

But we don't need ports in ireland it seems, because sure nothing we need comes by sea....

H&W Shipyard may or may not be on the market...theres conflicting news reports.

If it is the developers will be circling like sharks.

Still at least we have a devolved regional assembly to look out for the best interests of those who work there, and secure this important maritime / industrial infrastructure for future generations....oh wait...

The Port of Coleraine...small tidal port on the River Bann... looks increasingly likely to fall to the developers at last too.

I remember in the 80s when there could have been 4-6 coasters in there at any one time...Hawthorn, Blackthorn, Silverthorn are the ones I remember...coal boats.

Then a big chunk got sold off to stick a Dunnes on in the early 90s.

Today they export scrap metal and aggregates...but probably only 4-6 ships a month.

More and more pontoons for yachts and yacht storage ashore appearing...soon to be the fourth marina along that stretch of water I fear.

Old report but someone I know who lives close by tells me its been rearing its head again recently... https://www.williemiller.com/coleraine-harbour-vision.htm

Council will want to raise cash...short sighted.

ancientmariner
5th January 2019, 11:07
[QUOTE=spider;465146]H&W Shipyard may or may not be on the market...theres conflicting news reports.

If it is the developers will be circling like sharks.

Still at least we have a devolved regional assembly to look out for the best interests of those who work there, and secure this important maritime / industrial infrastructure for future generations....oh wait...

Irish Ferries, in the 2000's have had all their ships drydocked on scheduled repair programs at H&W. We have 9 ships in the Service, and if mutually compatible and benficial to the continuation of the Drydocks, why not give it a try with a couple of ships? Goodwill and state indemnities will solve most things, work being work. The flags could be left in the locker?

Laners
5th January 2019, 11:30
I can just imagine the reaction of the DUP at the thought of Irish Naval ships being dry docked in Belfast . No, No, and No. Even though it helps the yard economically . They would see it as a Trojan Horse attempt to a United Ireland or a pending invasion .

ancientmariner
5th January 2019, 16:02
I can just imagine the reaction of the DUP at the thought of Irish Naval ships being dry docked in Belfast . No, No, and No. Even though it helps the yard economically . They would see it as a Trojan Horse attempt to a United Ireland or a pending invasion .

I will admit there is "Form" such as the fire on ILS Granuaile during a major refit at HW, post a grounding incident at the Maidens Lighthouse. They cleaned up and did a new refurbishment to the ship.
As a young apprentice officer I was on the Irish Rose when we were loading seed potatoes in Belfast. We had our flag in the locker, when the foreman approached and said that the Dockers wouldn't load the ship unless we showed our Nationality. He said " put up your flag". We did each day we were there and we sailed with it flying. That was 1956/7 in Belfast.

spider
5th January 2019, 16:18
I can just imagine the reaction of the DUP at the thought of Irish Naval ships being dry docked in Belfast . No, No, and No. Even though it helps the yard economically . They would see it as a Trojan Horse attempt to a United Ireland or a pending invasion .

Ah...you'd be wrong there...

The yard is currently owned by a Norwegian firm, Fred Olsen Energy, not the DUP.

They dry dock and repair ships from all over the world...including Irish ships...

https://www.niferry.co.uk/irish-ferries-ulysses-further-delayed/

spider
5th January 2019, 16:33
I will admit there is "Form" such as the fire on ILS Granuaile during a major refit at HW, post a grounding incident at the Maidens Lighthouse. They cleaned up and did a new refurbishment to the ship.
As a young apprentice officer I was on the Irish Rose when we were loading seed potatoes in Belfast. We had our flag in the locker, when the foreman approached and said that the Dockers wouldn't load the ship unless we showed our Nationality. He said " put up your flag". We did each day we were there and we sailed with it flying. That was 1956/7 in Belfast.

I'm in Belfast quite a bit...use the ferries a lot...and I often see ships flying the Irish flag...a good example being the above-mentioned ILS Granuaile...a frequent visitor.

I've also seen Irish Navy warships berthed beside Royal Navy warships and open to the public in both Belfast and Londonderry.

Oddly enough they were flying their national flag... and I don't think anyone was too bothered...given that it was an Irish ship.

It would be a bit strange if they hadn't flown their flag.

I also really had hoped that no-one would bring this sh#t up on a thread which is after all about Irish ports...I did hesitate to post that bit about H&W for that reason...but it seems some people (see #75) can't help themselves.

Says a lot really.

Laners
5th January 2019, 17:37
It was just a bit of humour nothing else , lighten up there .

sofa
5th January 2019, 19:53
I will admit there is "Form" such as the fire on ILS Granuaile during a major refit at HW, post a grounding incident at the Maidens Lighthouse. They cleaned up and did a new refurbishment to the ship.
As a young apprentice officer I was on the Irish Rose when we were loading seed potatoes in Belfast. We had our flag in the locker, when the foreman approached and said that the Dockers wouldn't load the ship unless we showed our Nationality. He said " put up your flag". We did each day we were there and we sailed with it flying. That was 1956/7 in Belfast.

Catholics controlled the docks if I remember.

ancientmariner
9th February 2019, 10:33
It was just a bit of humour nothing else , lighten up there .

Free use of ports and all facilities is key to Trade and Commerce. Entry and exit from Key ports to Markets is also crucial for free flow of Commerce. There were some interesting moves Pre-Brexit involving " IRISH " companies. Irish Ferries killed off their use of Rosslare Harbour much to the dismay of the IRISH Haulage Association who regard the same port as critical to Markets.
UK interests cornered all our freight capacity by block chartering, through 3rd Party, ARKLOW SHIPPING. You can imagine at Brexit-no ships-no Rosslare-no Belfast. This morning on the News the Pre-Chartering attempt was stood down as ARKLOW SHIPPING withdrew. For God's sake do we have any idea how to get our duck's in a row. We should have an all island Task Force to ensure prioritisation of transport assets even by a pro-temp emergency Order.

na grohmiti
9th February 2019, 10:53
I'm surprised we had not heard of Arklows involvement before now.
It is very short sighted that even though we have a state of the art facility to train both Irish and foreign seafarers, we have no Irish based ferry operators. Irish ferries gave up being irish some years ago, and I believe would rename to "British Isles Ferries" should it suit their bottom line. They abandoned their Irish crew, flag and port of registry long ago. They only continue to serve irish routes because it is still profitable. Their suggestion that they Could drop Rosslare to France should be seen as a warning to government, who should be working hard to secure an alternative provider.

ancientmariner
9th February 2019, 14:26
I'm surprised we had not heard of Arklows involvement before now.
It is very short sighted that even though we have a state of the art facility to train both Irish and foreign seafarers, we have no Irish based ferry operators. Irish ferries gave up being irish some years ago, and I believe would rename to "British Isles Ferries" should it suit their bottom line. They abandoned their Irish crew, flag and port of registry long ago. They only continue to serve irish routes because it is still profitable. Their suggestion that they Could drop Rosslare to France should be seen as a warning to government, who should be working hard to secure an alternative provider.

Indeed, indeed. I now think it is/was a strategic attempt or demonstration to show that we are helpless in the provision of our own means of transport. We have NO Golden shares, we have NO ships, we goosed ALL our carriers and disbanded sole ministries putting ships and shipping out of sight. It has demonstrated that our neighbours could do what one of their polititians proposed about creating a food shortage here!!

Sparky42
9th February 2019, 15:25
In terms of Irish Ferries, I'd say there are a few different reasons for their decision, the screw up last year must have hurt their budget line even if it was the Yard that screwed up, so they might need to make the money back quicker and they will do that from Dublin, there's also the issue of if we keep "no border" then the ports are going to be the main points, and only Dublin has the BIP, Rosslare doesn't so that may also impact the decision.

As for Arklow and the Pizza delivery company, do they even have any Ro-Ro's chartered? And will that local council cut funding to Ramsgate? Will the French ports accept the ferries? To be honest that entire contract screams of a Tory backhander to some interest group rather than an actual going concern.

Laners
9th February 2019, 19:59
In terms of Irish Ferries, I'd say there are a few different reasons for their decision, the screw up last year must have hurt their budget line even if it was the Yard that screwed up, so they might need to make the money back quicker and they will do that from Dublin, there's also the issue of if we keep "no border" then the ports are going to be the main points, and only Dublin has the BIP, Rosslare doesn't so that may also impact the decision.

As for Arklow and the Pizza delivery company, do they even have any Ro-Ro's chartered? And will that local council cut funding to Ramsgate? Will the French ports accept the ferries? To be honest that entire contract screams of a Tory backhander to some interest group rather than an actual going concern.
It was to be Ramsgate to Ostend in Belguim so no French unions to worry about . Anyway the Mayor of Ostend said that they would not be prepared to fork out any money of their own for the ports upgrades .

ancientmariner
10th February 2019, 09:39
It was to be Ramsgate to Ostend in Belguim so no French unions to worry about . Anyway the Mayor of Ostend said that they would not be prepared to fork out any money of their own for the ports upgrades .

The point I'm making is the need for emergency Legislation, available at times of need , under a Shipping Control scheme , that provides "Bottoms" , Ports , and maintenance facilities for National well being. If everything stood Arklow would be on contract and we would have NO ships to Control.

ancientmariner
10th February 2019, 10:55
The point I'm making is the need for emergency Legislation, available at times of need , under a Shipping Control scheme , that provides "Bottoms" , Ports , and maintenance facilities for National well being. If everything stood Arklow would be on contract and we would have NO ships to Control.

If one reads " Rosslare and Kilcrane area development Plan" you can see our National problem of being Sea Blind. It covers everything from Rail, Road, Housing, restaurants, flora , fauna, light industry, but nothing about developing Port suitability or infrastructure needed for modern ports, such as cargo handling, weather safe harbour, disposal of ship generated waste and liquids, ship repair etc. etc..

na grohmiti
10th February 2019, 11:19
Port of Cork company had quite a fight to convince local government that they needed the basic fundamentals of Port equipment. If they did not live in a sea friendly area it would have been a hard fight to allow ships to dock, be loaded and unloaded and have all the other attended services outside a 9-5 operation. Some natives were quite opposed to this happening. People move to a community for the sea views but are still very sea blind.

EUFighter
10th February 2019, 11:46
Port of Cork company had quite a fight to convince local government that they needed the basic fundamentals of Port equipment. If they did not live in a sea friendly area it would have been a hard fight to allow ships to dock, be loaded and unloaded and have all the other attended services outside a 9-5 operation. Some natives were quite opposed to this happening. People move to a community for the sea views but are still very sea blind.

It is not just confined to "sea blindness", it is a general ignorance of all things that make it easy to have a comfortable life with great sea views!
Ask the majority of people where does electrical power come from and the answer will be "somewhere in the wall".

We are an island nation that is land locked

Laners
10th February 2019, 12:53
I had a discussion in work one day in relation to water chargers , those opposed to them argued that it should be free because it just fell from the sky , i put it to them that if that was their argument then natural gas should be free as well due to it coming out of a hole in the ground at the bottom of the sea . None of them could fathom how it arrived at their homes ( or didn't want to know ) .

Sparky42
10th February 2019, 15:21
I had a discussion in work one day in relation to water chargers , those opposed to them argued that it should be free because it just fell from the sky , i put it to them that if that was their argument then natural gas should be free as well due to it coming out of a hole in the ground at the bottom of the sea . None of them could fathom how it arrived at their homes ( or didn't want to know ) .

Same for electricity and sewage and pretty much all the other services, there's no attempt to understand the scale and costs of the infrastructure needed for such services.

ancientmariner
10th February 2019, 18:06
Same for electricity and sewage and pretty much all the other services, there's no attempt to understand the scale and costs of the infrastructure needed for such services.

Scaling is very apt for ports as charges evolve around tonnage to determine pilotage and port usage. Dublin Port company is having second thoughts on creating a dedicated Cruising base as such ships are planned to reach only a figure of 150 ships as against 8000 cargo ships.
However 150 cruise liners would create a tonnage of 7.5m plus 375,000 passengers and crew, 8000 cargo vessels ( assuming 3000t average) creates 24m tonnage , only 3 times the cruise tonnage , but very little spending power with few passengers if any for shops and tours.
If they change their mind it is a double whammy to the intended cruising from Ireland this year ( Dublin and Cobh ) and the loss of the Drydock and ship repair as already planned. There needs to be a National Plan and direct Control of "on and off" Island Transport and it's infrastructure.

Sparky42
10th February 2019, 18:57
In terms of Dublin reviewing it's Cruise Terminal, it might help Cobh's plan for a second terminal, though how that will work for traffic flow in Cobh is another question.

na grohmiti
10th February 2019, 19:39
There is plenty of room for two terminals, once you accept that one ship will be smaller than the other. Port of cork frequently sees three cruise liners visit at once. One goes to Cobh, One Ringaskiddy and the smaller to the city quays when possible. The Redevelopment of Tivoli Docks as a residential area could see a fourth cruise liner berth within the Port of Cork area of operating.

Sparky42
10th February 2019, 19:56
There is plenty of room for two terminals, once you accept that one ship will be smaller than the other. Port of cork frequently sees three cruise liners visit at once. One goes to Cobh, One Ringaskiddy and the smaller to the city quays when possible. The Redevelopment of Tivoli Docks as a residential area could see a fourth cruise liner berth within the Port of Cork area of operating.

I'm not talking about the entire port, I'm talking about another terminal in Cobh itself down by Lynch's Quay, getting 52 seater buses there is going to be "interesting"

na grohmiti
10th February 2019, 20:28
I'm not talking about the entire port, I'm talking about another terminal in Cobh itself down by Lynch's Quay, getting 52 seater buses there is going to be "interesting"

There????? Madness!
You only have 50m of "quay" by the old town hall/chinese. You could expand that into the channel I suppose, there is still lots of room there, but the 12kn tidal current there could make things interesting when berthing.
The dole office will make a great visitor info centre....

Sparky42
10th February 2019, 20:40
There????? Madness!
You only have 50m of "quay" by the old town hall/chinese. You could expand that into the channel I suppose, there is still lots of room there, but the 12kn tidal current there could make things interesting when berthing.
The dole office will make a great visitor info centre....

I agree, hence why I said it would be "interesting" in the "holy shite" way. But yeah that's the reported plan for about 20 million:


The Port of Cork recently engaged with Price Waterhouse to seek expressions of interest from the private sector to develop and/or operate a new cruise berth at Lynch’s Quay in Cobh.

“Already we’re encouraged by the level of interest,” Mr Keating said. “We’d hope to see it constructed in the next five to six years. We are planning ahead and it will enhance our ability to cater for the biggest ships in the world.”
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/luxury-cruise-liners-flock-to-cork-893934.html

na grohmiti
10th February 2019, 20:51
Build a jetty out from the chinese, make it big enough to accomodate all the buses. I think 30 is normal at a time for the deepwater. With all due respect to Port of Cork, I don't see them getting a foreshore licence.

ancientmariner
11th February 2019, 16:11
Build a jetty out from the chinese, make it big enough to accomodate all the buses. I think 30 is normal at a time for the deepwater. With all due respect to Port of Cork, I don't see them getting a foreshore licence.

Whatever ensues any new pier will need to comply with International recommendations to minimise greenhouses gases. The major requirement is shore power already available throughout Europe and the USA. We need to consider up to 100.000kilowatts. We also need some pump out facilities for poop and grey water, and supply fresh water/ FF water on hydrants. The latter needs connection into ship system when she is on shore power-maybe no pumps runnable.

Flamingo
11th February 2019, 16:20
Whatever ensues any new pier will need to comply with International recommendations to minimise greenhouses gases. The major requirement is shore power already available throughout Europe and the USA. We need to consider up to 100.000kilowatts. We also need some pump out facilities for poop and grey water, and supply fresh water/ FF water on hydrants. The latter needs connection into ship system when she is on shore power-maybe no pumps runnable.
So there is a bit more to it than just providing a gangway and a couple of bloody big bollards then?

Laners
11th February 2019, 21:10
Of course if the cruise ship owners decide that Cobh is no longer to their customers liking there is nothing to stop them from bi passing Cobh , and who will be left with the bill for all the infrastructure .

ancientmariner
11th February 2019, 21:26
Of course if the cruise ship owners decide that Cobh is no longer to their customers liking there is nothing to stop them from bi passing Cobh , and who will be left with the bill for all the infrastructure .

At the moment, with 150 cruise calls, Ireland, as an island, is in the top ten. Shore power is going to be imposed on all ships going forward as a means of minimising diesel usage in port. Ireland will remain popular as is the case with any coastal state or Island, unless we over milk it.

na grohmiti
11th February 2019, 21:26
Hopefully by then it'll be paid for and we'll all be dead anyway...

Sparky42
11th February 2019, 21:35
Of course if the cruise ship owners decide that Cobh is no longer to their customers liking there is nothing to stop them from bi passing Cobh , and who will be left with the bill for all the infrastructure .

Given the increase in usage in Cork I don't see them cutting that, I mean right now the major complaint is when they don't get a berth at Cobh and get stuck over in Ringaskiddy. With Dublin coming out and saying they are rethinking the entire idea of having Cruise ships then Cork remains a main draw.

Laners
11th February 2019, 21:42
Well lets hope we stay popular with everyone then .On a similar note Rosslare was not popular enough for Irish Ferries to continue their service to France from there , it would seem that Ireland's strategic needs are at the whim of commercial interests .

Sparky42
11th February 2019, 21:49
Well lets hope we stay popular with everyone then .On a similar note Rosslare was not popular enough for Irish Ferries to continue their service to France from there , it would seem that Ireland's strategic needs are at the whim of commercial interests .

You do know the size difference in the level of cargo units between the two? I mean arguably strategically we should have more Ro-Ro's out of Dublin, also wonder what impact the mid week Britney Ferries from Cork had on the traffic flows as well last year. As I've also said it could be that Irish Ferries are expecting more issues in Rosslare since they will have to stand up a full BIP at this rate while Dublin is already operational just needs to enlarge. As for changing patterns of usage, that's surely the risk for any strategic investment in Infrastructure?

Laners
11th February 2019, 21:56
The cargo units between the two ?. I assume Dublin and Rosslare

Sparky42
11th February 2019, 22:00
The cargo units between the two ?. I assume Dublin and Rosslare

Yeah the volume out of Dublin stands well beyond all the others, it does make sense increasing the capacity out of it first.

Laners
11th February 2019, 22:08
I agree , massive volume going from Dublin , too massive if there is a no deal Brexit . There's P&O and Seatruck to liverpool , Irish Ferries and Stena to Holyhead , around seventeen arrivals from the UK a day .

Sparky42
11th February 2019, 22:26
I agree , massive volume going from Dublin , too massive if there is a no deal Brexit . There's P&O and Seatruck to liverpool , Irish Ferries and Stena to Holyhead , around seventeen arrivals from the UK a day .

Yet if there's a No Deal, Dublin is the only one that is capable of meeting the inspection requirements right now, I mean Rosslare has sourced some extra land but they still have to work up all the extra government staff and the rest, Dublin already has this.

na grohmiti
12th February 2019, 00:13
Rosslare is three years away from havingthe necessary inspection facilities it requires post no deal brexit.
I don't know where Dublin port stands in this regards.

Sparky42
12th February 2019, 00:39
Rosslare is three years away from havingthe necessary inspection facilities it requires post no deal brexit.
I don't know where Dublin port stands in this regards.

Dublin Port was already set up with the facilities to handle "normal" non-EU inspections, there's no question they've had to spend on expanding but it's the only one of the major ports that was active in that regard already before Brexit.

Laners
12th February 2019, 07:13
My thinking is that if Dublin becomes congested to the point that every link span is occupied due to the slower discharge of vehicles,ships arriving from the continent will still have to wait for a berth even though they would not be subject to no deal customs and inspections . Now if Rosslare and Cork were to designated for all continental traffic at least their would be an unhindered route into the country . It seems that the contingency plan is to pour a lot concrete and make a large parking lot at Dublin port . Why not make use of two other perfectly good ports with link spans to spread the load .( Does anyone know if the second link span at Ringaskiddy is operational )

DeV
12th February 2019, 08:07
Worst case (hard Brexit and major disruption to landbridge), Rosslare could be well placed to concentrate on RoRo to France to reduce congestion in Dublin

Rosslare’s plans
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusines s%2Frosslare-plans-to-take-advantage-of-brexit-world-of-opportunities-1.3785684&h=AT3f83p_lAYRmFw2Ti-jWaJoin1O4Go_FwJ5qKQsbkeSJqsViQwl3xTF8c8mQoS1Kxyep tV717yIXFOSfPI0ttI5jqei6TNEUdMVLzHiksE8mf5h7Ap_adN ZwuvInR-a7KXdVde2&s=1

If there is sufficient demand and Dublin is very congested, the ferries will want to put services in place

Laners
12th February 2019, 09:05
There are eight vessels operating from Dublin to the UK , Heysham , Liverpool , Holyhead . Three UK ports all feeding into one Irish port , the total lane metres of the combined vessels is equal to 20 klms , multiply that by the combined number of round trips in a 24 hour period it comes in at 100 klms of vehicles end to end. That's the distance from Dublin to Holyhead . Add to that the once a week service by the Celine(8000 lane metres) from Belgium and the new three days a week service to/from France by Irish Ferries . That's five ports all feeding into Dublin . All that freight traffic has only one way into and out of Dublin and that's via the Port Tunnel .

DeV
12th February 2019, 09:43
There are eight vessels operating from Dublin to the UK , Heysham , Liverpool , Holyhead . Three UK ports all feeding into one Irish port , the total lane metres of the combined vessels is equal to 20 klms , multiply that by the combined number of round trips in a 24 hour period it comes in at 100 klms of vehicles end to end. That's the distance from Dublin to Holyhead . Add to that the once a week service by the Celine(8000 lane metres) from Belgium and the new three days a week service to/from France by Irish Ferries . That's five ports all feeding into Dublin . All that freight traffic has only one way into and out of Dublin and that's via the Port Tunnel .

Depends on the weight of the cargo
Depends on the amount of axles
Depends on the consignees location

Laners
12th February 2019, 10:14
The lane metres of the ships stays the same regardless of the weight and number of axles , and no trough traffic of heavy goods vehicles allowed trough Dublin except those with a permit for a local delivery .

Sparky42
12th February 2019, 12:15
My thinking is that if Dublin becomes congested to the point that every link span is occupied due to the slower discharge of vehicles,ships arriving from the continent will still have to wait for a berth even though they would not be subject to no deal customs and inspections . Now if Rosslare and Cork were to designated for all continental traffic at least their would be an unhindered route into the country . It seems that the contingency plan is to pour a lot concrete and make a large parking lot at Dublin port . Why not make use of two other perfectly good ports with link spans to spread the load .( Does anyone know if the second link span at Ringaskiddy is operational )

At a guess, right now our "no hard border" stance and the UK's "whatever May says today" stance, combined that means the inspections are by default going to end up at the ports, which means Rosslare and Cork would have to do the needed expansion in check bays/Biological Inspection areas, and all the staff that would be needed by both the port and the Government agencies as well which will take time/money/effort. Dublin by default already has the advantage in having those facilities available right now.

ancientmariner
12th February 2019, 12:30
The lane metres of the ships stays the same regardless of the weight and number of axles , and no trough traffic of heavy goods vehicles allowed trough Dublin except those with a permit for a local delivery .

It is an enduring logistics problem that must be catered for especially in this day and age of daily fresh foods, and just in time supply. There are signs of lack of control, and lack of matching volumes with available matching berthage space for ships. Funds were always available but was largely spent on roads with little port expansion except by individual companies that ad hoc-ed as best they could. When I was a kid we had an Island population of about 3.5m, it is now approaching 6m and growing. Comparative studies have been done by the Competition Authority evaluating Port through puts and seeing if they should be associated commercially. Among those they did not consult were the Naval Service or Irish Lights Commission. It is historically an interesting report but has little sign post for the future. We always expected that the Brits would do it for us like in the days of the Nimrod and the Sea Kings from Wales. We will now have to be Independent and build our own future with help from Brussels.

DeV
12th February 2019, 12:34
The lane metres of the ships stays the same regardless of the weight and number of axles , and no trough traffic of heavy goods vehicles allowed trough Dublin except those with a permit for a local delivery .

I wasn’t referring to the vessels I was referring to the city

5 axle HGVs aren’t allowed through the city between 0700 and 1900 hrs without a permit

Now if you have lighter goods that can be carried to/from the port (especially the Southside) on a 2 axle tractor unit and 2 axle trailer via Strand Road, which can be very advantageous if your on the Southside

Sparky42
12th February 2019, 12:49
I wasn’t referring to the vessels I was referring to the city

5 axle HGVs aren’t allowed through the city between 0700 and 1900 hrs without a permit

Now if you have lighter goods that can be carried to/from the port (especially the Southside) on a 2 axle tractor unit and 2 axle trailer via Strand Road, which can be very advantageous if your on the Southside

That might be something that might give for a time period if needed, I mean I was reading that Circle K has already been talking to the Gardaí and Dublin port to ensure that their tankers can get out no matter what. I'd say there are going to be "adaptions" as we go.

Laners
12th February 2019, 13:14
The lane metres of the ships stays the same regardless of the weight and number of axles , and no trough traffic of heavy goods vehicles allowed trough Dublin except those with a permit for a local delivery .

That's why i said trough traffic , as in passing trough Dublin and on wards .

DeV
12th February 2019, 15:12
That might be something that might give for a time period if needed, I mean I was reading that Circle K has already been talking to the Gardaí and Dublin port to ensure that their tankers can get out no matter what. I'd say there are going to be "adaptions" as we go.

I know a company that defeats the 5 axle ban and saves hours on a daily basis by using Strand Road with a 2 axle tractor unit and 2 axle trailer on a daily basis

na grohmiti
12th February 2019, 20:17
( Does anyone know if the second link span at Ringaskiddy is operational )

Not for some time. Even when the Swansea cork ferry was operating, it waited for the other linkspan to free up. It is not part of the future plans of Port of Cork in Ringaskiddy.

ancientmariner
13th February 2019, 09:16
Not for some time. Even when the Swansea cork ferry was operating, it waited for the other linkspan to free up. It is not part of the future plans of Port of Cork in Ringaskiddy.

There was a Planning decision in 2015 in respect of use of a Link-Span at Ringaskiddy requiring it's use to be deferred until completion of road works on N28 and works at Dunkettle Roundabout Co. Cork.

ancientmariner
13th February 2019, 18:58
There was a Planning decision in 2015 in respect of use of a Link-Span at Ringaskiddy requiring it's use to be deferred until completion of road works on N28 and works at Dunkettle Roundabout Co. Cork.

As part of the Planning to expand berthage and handling space at Ringaskiddy, the contractor is required to build a slip , pier, and boating park near Paddy's Block adjacent to the entrance to the Naval Base. Shortly, with Amenity Park , there will be Refreshments and Ice Cream and throw away rubbish.

ancientmariner
14th February 2019, 22:56
As part of the Planning to expand berthage and handling space at Ringaskiddy, the contractor is required to build a slip , pier, and boating park near Paddy's Block adjacent to the entrance to the Naval Base. Shortly, with Amenity Park , there will be Refreshments and Ice Cream and throw away rubbish.

The news keeps pouring in. The EU environmentalists want the clean up at Haulbowline to continue on the Mill site as soon as possible or we will incur daily EU fines for non-compliance.
The H&W yard at Belfast is losing Olsen funding and will have to go it alone unless support can be obtained. Their last big drydocking was a Cruise liner in 2018 and some ongoing short back and sides stuff for Stena.
The new piers at Ringaskiddy are planned at 183m and 134m which is miniscule when compared to the new coastal Port at Bangkok at LAEM CHABANG where the berths vary from 300m to double berths of 700m all with 14m of depth alongside . They also have some Naval piers leased out at similar 300m lengths. We need up to 800 metres for all our ships to be alongside for Shore Power and firefighting water.

ancientmariner
13th July 2019, 17:24
The news keeps pouring in. The EU environmentalists want the clean up at Haulbowline to continue on the Mill site as soon as possible or we will incur daily EU fines for non-compliance.
The H&W yard at Belfast is losing Olsen funding and will have to go it alone unless support can be obtained. Their last big drydocking was a Cruise liner in 2018 and some ongoing short back and sides stuff for Stena.
The new piers at Ringaskiddy are planned at 183m and 134m which is miniscule when compared to the new coastal Port at Bangkok at LAEM CHABANG where the berths vary from 300m to double berths of 700m all with 14m of depth alongside . They also have some Naval piers leased out at similar 300m lengths. We need up to 800 metres for all our ships to be alongside for Shore Power and firefighting water..

Cork City Council and Cork Port Company are in the process of changing the Cork Harbour Shipping (all types) facilities forever. The City Quays are to be abandoned, mainly because they will be transected by at least two bridges and the adjacent lands are drivers for Urban development by the Council. The Cork Port company want the land to be valued , plus value of lost facilities, so that they can replicate and improve harbour facilities at Ringaskiddy. There was a recent Oireachtas Committee to high light all of this plus a slide show to illustrate Port Company intentions. The major container terminal will be on Oyster bank adjacent to Haulbowline. I am amazed that a strategic Harbour user , such as the Navy, is not invited or consulted in it's own possible demise. As part of the Development , the Port Company will plank an amenity park at the entrance to Haulbowline. It is paramount that the Navy is party to ANY harbour development. My own view is that Ringaskiddy is too small a location to combine all Port needs from Cargo to Passengers, and from coasters to large container ships.

na grohmiti
13th July 2019, 18:01
R&H hall have indicated they are moving their operation from city jetties to the old IFI plant at Marino point. Works are at a very advanced stage.

ancientmariner
23rd July 2019, 09:23
.

Cork City Council and Cork Port Company are in the process of changing the Cork Harbour Shipping (all types) facilities forever. The City Quays are to be abandoned, mainly because they will be transected by at least two bridges and the adjacent lands are drivers for Urban development by the Council. The Cork Port company want the land to be valued , plus value of lost facilities, so that they can replicate and improve harbour facilities at Ringaskiddy. There was a recent Oireachtas Committee to high light all of this plus a slide show to illustrate Port Company intentions. The major container terminal will be on Oyster bank adjacent to Haulbowline. I am amazed that a strategic Harbour user , such as the Navy, is not invited or consulted in it's own possible demise. As part of the Development , the Port Company will plank an amenity park at the entrance to Haulbowline. It is paramount that the Navy is party to ANY harbour development. My own view is that Ringaskiddy is too small a location to combine all Port needs from Cargo to Passengers, and from coasters to large container ships.

The power's that should be, must implement an exclusion zone around all Defence properties for security purposes and safe separation. Take into account on water training areas for Divers and RHIB crews training. Adjacent Parks are in my opinion a problem-now or in the future.

TangoSierra
5th August 2019, 12:01
Startup has great hopes for a proposed solar power plant in Cork harbour

https://www.irishexaminer.com%2Fbreakingnews%2Fbusiness%2F startup-has-great-hopes-for-a-proposed-solar-power-plant-in-cork-harbour-941789.html

ancientmariner
5th August 2019, 17:40
Startup has great hopes for a proposed solar power plant in Cork harbour

https://www.irishexaminer.com%2Fbreakingnews%2Fbusiness%2F startup-has-great-hopes-for-a-proposed-solar-power-plant-in-cork-harbour-941789.html

The Solar Start-up company is proposing that they will initially build a floating solar power energy plant of 1.5mw, to be moored possibly in Cork harbour. They are hoping it will create a worldwide market. It probably could like a portable generator system that is movable. They are proposing it be built to " Marine Standards " to increase longevity. Again , let us hope this is not another incursion on Naval Space and that EMC/EMI problems don't effect the Naval Radio station. It will have to have a land based point for plugging into the National grid.

TangoSierra
5th August 2019, 20:03
It’s been given the green light to be built off ringaskiddy. Waiting on a foreshore license to be approved

pym
5th August 2019, 23:09
Probably less of an EMC/EMI concern than wind turbines, the panels produce no noise themselves - just DC energy, conversion to other voltages is where the noise could result and that can be greatly minimised with decent filtering. Worst of the interference (if any) probably confined to HF/MF and very localised - plus those frequencies seem to be of ever diminishing importance. I use solar energy around HF freqs fairly regularly.

Off topic:- this island currently has approx 4000MW of installed wind turbine capacity, with overall peak system demands usually hovering around 4500-5500MW.

So when the wind isn't blowing, the reliance of the network on imported electricity and imported gas is a bit worrying if things got very disorderly later in the year.

Sparky42
5th August 2019, 23:21
Probably less of an EMC/EMI concern than wind turbines, the panels produce no noise themselves - just DC energy, conversion to other voltages is where the noise could result and that can be greatly minimised with decent filtering. Worst of the interference (if any) probably confined to HF/MF and very localised - plus those frequencies seem to be of ever diminishing importance. I use solar energy around HF freqs fairly regularly.

Off topic:- this island currently has approx 4000MW of installed wind turbine capacity, with overall peak system demands usually hovering around 4500-5500MW.

So when the wind isn't blowing, the reliance of the network on imported electricity and imported gas is a bit worrying if things got very disorderly later in the year.

Pity the Interconnector to France didn't get underway a few years ago... Though would it have anyway if not for the current circumstances?
Also a bit off Topic but it's strange seeing some of the photos inside H&W's halls and facilities now that they have gone into Administration.

ancientmariner
6th August 2019, 10:12
Pity the Interconnector to France didn't get underway a few years ago... Though would it have anyway if not for the current circumstances?
Also a bit off Topic but it's strange seeing some of the photos inside H&W's halls and facilities now that they have gone into Administration.

I do NOT trust those that are rushing to connect to off island power sources as it has a built-in strategic deficit in times of changed needs. We have shed more than 1000mw in recent years and could become dependent if we dont boost on Island generation. I am more than worried by the Ringaskiddy developments and likely impact on Navy and NMCI. It seems nobody is in charge and we are subject to fait accompli.
HW is a huge asset to these islands and should be retained in most part due to it's huge drydock and repair capacity, if NOT Building? Britain does NOT have enough merchant tonnage to be Independent of hire and charter.

na grohmiti
6th August 2019, 11:50
There was a plan by the DF not long ago to have at least one wind turbine on the island. There are already 4 others based in nearby pharma plants. The infrastructure is already in place to connect these to grid. I think the old pylons supplying irish steel were 220mw lines. This would make haulbowline cost neutral in terms of energy consumption, with the added benefit of sending surplus electricity onto the main grid.
There are also plans in the lower harbour to install battery storage within the perimeter of the soon to be decommissioned 1980s Aghada power station.
Interconnectors are only good for one side, those who are supplying. The UK has realised just recently that most of their power now comes from France. BREXIT may cause difficulties here.
The elephant in the room is nuclear power. A properly managed and located nuclear power plant can provide a steady source for the majority of our peak power requirements.
Both France and Germany have an excellent safety record in operation of these plants for almost half a century. Interesting article in yesterday's examiner regarding the pros and cons.
Until tide and wave power can be efficiently harnessed, we need a reliable alternative source.

ancientmariner
6th August 2019, 16:01
There was a plan by the DF not long ago to have at least one wind turbine on the island. There are already 4 others based in nearby pharma plants. The infrastructure is already in place to connect these to grid. I think the old pylons supplying irish steel were 220mw lines. This would make haulbowline cost neutral in terms of energy consumption, with the added benefit of sending surplus electricity onto the main grid.
There are also plans in the lower harbour to install battery storage within the perimeter of the soon to be decommissioned 1980s Aghada power station.
Interconnectors are only good for one side, those who are supplying. The UK has realised just recently that most of their power now comes from France. BREXIT may cause difficulties here.
The elephant in the room is nuclear power. A properly managed and located nuclear power plant can provide a steady source for the majority of our peak power requirements.
Both France and Germany have an excellent safety record in operation of these plants for almost half a century. Interesting article in yesterday's examiner regarding the pros and cons.
Until tide and wave power can be efficiently harnessed, we need a reliable alternative source.

Sorry. To be more specific I meant the Island of Ireland. We are in danger of being dependent on the UK connector and France if it occurs. As I pointed out 1000mw have already been shut down with more to follow. In a strategic sense this will leave us short of controllable power. This Government are shedding responsibility by Privatising--Power, Transport, Post and Communications, Harbours and ability to Trade Internationally . Because they are at a distance from key infrastructures they are less likely to see or stop problems. At some stage we must use Nuclear Power as we are probably using it over the Irish sea Interconnector.

Sparky42
6th August 2019, 16:30
For the suggestions of nuclear power even leaving out the massive political and public resistance to such a proposal has anyone paid attention to the over runs the new generation in the UK and France are seeing? If today planning was granted by magic it would be the better part of 20+ years before it would be supplying into the grid, hell just look at the massive delay in bringing the Corrib field online and that was a "minor" issue of the terminal. A Nuclear plant? I'd bet most of us would be long dead before an Irish plant was operational.

ancientmariner
7th August 2019, 10:58
For the suggestions of nuclear power even leaving out the massive political and public resistance to such a proposal has anyone paid attention to the over runs the new generation in the UK and France are seeing? If today planning was granted by magic it would be the better part of 20+ years before it would be supplying into the grid, hell just look at the massive delay in bringing the Corrib field online and that was a "minor" issue of the terminal. A Nuclear plant? I'd bet most of us would be long dead before an Irish plant was operational.

Corrib was delayed due to not factoring in local opposition , regulatory blockages , re-routing pipeline, and optimism bias from owners and Agencies.
Nuclear options in face of alternative dirty or variable sources has to be assessed.
The cost per kw hour, for nuclear, can be between Euro 5000 and Euro 2500 depending on whose plant you build. The cheaper one is of Chinese origin and the dearer would be from western sources. A 4mw plant might cost Euro 10 Billion. and would be of Asian origin.

Graylion
7th August 2019, 15:10
My personal favourite to develop would be Waterford really. Much better shelter than Rosslare and has a motorway. I'd relieve Dublin and Cork of most port duties and use the land to develop the inner city.

Sparky42
7th August 2019, 16:06
My personal favourite to develop would be Waterford really. Much better shelter than Rosslare and has a motorway. I'd relieve Dublin and Cork of most port duties and use the land to develop the inner city.

Cork is already going that way over the next couple of decades anyway as the Port moves down, as seen by the recent spate of high rise planning developments at the old Port of Cork area of the island and on the South Bank. As for Dublin, there was the suggestion of moving it North between Belfast and Dublin and using the Land but Dublin Port basically said "feck off" though the same crowd are now suggesting infilling Dublin Bay for development.

Sparky42
7th August 2019, 16:10
Corrib was delayed due to not factoring in local opposition , regulatory blockages , re-routing pipeline, and optimism bias from owners and Agencies.
Nuclear options in face of alternative dirty or variable sources has to be assessed.
The cost per kw hour, for nuclear, can be between Euro 5000 and Euro 2500 depending on whose plant you build. The cheaper one is of Chinese origin and the dearer would be from western sources. A 4mw plant might cost Euro 10 Billion. and would be of Asian origin.

There was a hell of a lot more than that that went on up there, but the point stands. All the issues you highlighted will be only magnified in a Nuclear Plant. Moreover Green movements have pretty much made Nuclear as politically DOA as heavy polluting sources, that's before you even get into what subsidies the plant would need from central government, and building the plant.

I'm sorry but I'll stick with my view that whatever argument might be made regarding how Clean it is, we aren't going to see a Nuclear plant built on the island within our lifetimes, even if the Government started the process tomorrow (which would of course also bring down the Government at once).

EUFighter
7th August 2019, 16:50
The is an excellent video from the Irish "Real Engineering" youtube channel where the problems related to green energy are discussed. What becomes very clear is the focus on the generation is not the key issue it will be how do you store that energy for when you need it. For us at this latitudes we generate most renewables during the summer when we get the most energy from the sun. This is true for solar and for wind! But our peak demand for that energy will be in the dark cold months of Feb/March. Pump storage could be a solution but then there will be that special snail that has to be preserved. We as a race, not only as a nation will have to make some very important choices but are we informed enough? Maybe we will have no other option but to build a mega interconnector to France and take their nuclear generated electricity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5cm7HOAqZY

EUFighter
7th August 2019, 17:05
My personal favourite to develop would be Waterford really. Much better shelter than Rosslare and has a motorway. I'd relieve Dublin and Cork of most port duties and use the land to develop the inner city.

Are you suggesting a further development of Belview Port? The biggest limitation will be draught, this is currently 8-9m at Belview.
Ringaskiddy has 13.4m which might not seem like a lot but Belview is a long way in from the mouth of Waterford harbour, that is a lot of dredging.

In any case the traffic will go where it is cheapest, that is a fact of life. Remember Dublin and Cork are the two biggest population centres in the country and thus are always going to need ports in or near them.

ancientmariner
7th August 2019, 20:50
Are you suggesting a further development of Belview Port? The biggest limitation will be draught, this is currently 8-9m at Belview.
Ringaskiddy has 13.4m which might not seem like a lot but Belview is a long way in from the mouth of Waterford harbour, that is a lot of dredging.

In any case the traffic will go where it is cheapest, that is a fact of life. Remember Dublin and Cork are the two biggest population centres in the country and thus are always going to need ports in or near them.

The overall problem is that the state and its agencies have no idea of the importance of Ports and Trade. They sink Marine matters in the bowels of other Departments and are NOT proactive in making our Island of Ireland Independent. So Port development lies in the hands of beneficiaries such as shippers and developers. The result is piecemeal expansion to suit particular trades which can be transient depending on whether you provided a feeder service for smaller vessels or you become a transhipment hub to take large ocean going tonnage.
Waterford as a point for development has Duncannon Spit which is dredged to a maintained depth of 6.5 meters. It has 3.3m on top of that at the lowest High Water (Neaps). A vessel with 9m draft might scrape over it at slow low squat speed. All vessels will be constrained by the height of tide range.
Before developing Waterford major dredging would be required to give depths suitable for vessels of 9 meters at low water.
The Cork Harbour development is likely to be a shambles as the development space is too congested and may damage permanent users such as the Naval service. Perhaps they should look at the east side of the harbour with potential to create land banks for containers and improvable road system with access to motorways.

Graylion
8th August 2019, 08:27
There was a hell of a lot more than that that went on up there, but the point stands. All the issues you highlighted will be only magnified in a Nuclear Plant. Moreover Green movements have pretty much made Nuclear as politically DOA as heavy polluting sources, that's before you even get into what subsidies the plant would need from central government, and building the plant.

I'm sorry but I'll stick with my view that whatever argument might be made regarding how Clean it is, we aren't going to see a Nuclear plant built on the island within our lifetimes, even if the Government started the process tomorrow (which would of course also bring down the Government at once).

My reply to the suggestion of nuclear power in Ireland is "have you ever heard the expressions 'ah sure, it's gonna be grand'?".

Graylion
8th August 2019, 08:30
Are you suggesting a further development of Belview Port? The biggest limitation will be draught, this is currently 8-9m at Belview.
Ringaskiddy has 13.4m which might not seem like a lot but Belview is a long way in from the mouth of Waterford harbour, that is a lot of dredging.

In any case the traffic will go where it is cheapest, that is a fact of life. Remember Dublin and Cork are the two biggest population centres in the country and thus are always going to need ports in or near them.

Belview port or across the river from t. And yes the need for dredging is pretty clear. As for logistical requirements - not so sure. How much of a port does London have?

ropebag
8th August 2019, 08:48
Ireland building an NP station is about as likely as Ireland building a 6th gen stealth fighter - and for the same reason: you don't have the people to design it, certify it, build it and operate it.

The UK, which has experience - though not recent - of building NP stations, has had enormous difficulties building the new power stations because those who built them in the 80's have long since retired - my dad, in his 70's, who isn't a nuclear engineer but who designed some of the sub-systems, has been dragged out of retirement several times to work on Hinckley Point C, and for not far off footballers wages - the office he's been working in is full of blokes in their 60's, 70's and even 80's because the recent experience just isn't there.

If the design/build had started 5 years later, those people would no longer have been available - and the project would have died in the mud.

If you're interested, the going rate for a senior engineer with any experience whatsoever of a nuclear build is about £1000 per day. There were over 200 ex-retirees working in my dad's Office, and that's been going on for the best part of a decade.

It's money in quantities so large that they are beyond numbers...

EUFighter
8th August 2019, 08:48
Belview port or across the river from t. And yes the need for dredging is pretty clear. As for logistical requirements - not so sure. How much of a port does London have?

London is still one of the biggest ports in the UK even if it never has recovered from the Blitz. Tilbury is the main terminal used today but London has the advantage of a large number of ports in close proximity, Dover, Medway, Ramsgate.....
Also just in recent years they have developed a new port area called London Gateway.

CTU
8th August 2019, 11:01
Belview port or across the river from t. And yes the need for dredging is pretty clear. As for logistical requirements - not so sure. How much of a port does London have?

I wouldn't compare the Thames Estuary with Waterford and I would say London Gateway is overtaking Tilbury

http://www.pla.co.uk/About-Us/About-Us
https://www.londongateway.com/about/about-us

na grohmiti
8th August 2019, 12:05
You can dredge all you want, but the Suir, Nore and Barrow will refill it with silt weekly.
Hydro dynamics will decide where the mud goes. Move if and it will just block up somewhere else. The reclaimation of rungaskiddy caused severe silting in other sides of the harbour. Whitegate for example, up to the early 80s had 3 usable piers. A combination of reclaimation at Aghada and Ringaskiddy means these piers are now dry except for a 4 hour window daily. Rowing regatta which were once a weekly event, can now only take place during a favourable spring tide, when there is enough water to lift the football sized lane marker buoys.
Even with dredging at Duncannon, you are still only opening the port to slightly larger ships that currently call. You can't change the long trip upriver, (presumably under costly pilot) to Bellview. This is why Port of Cork has moved downstream, to remove this half hour trip from visiting vessels.
Cork has a minimum of 11m below datum as far as the new port with the old berth maintained at 13.4m. A vessel fully laden at that draft can enter or leave at any state of tide.
Shipowners dont like being constrained by tides where possible.

ancientmariner
9th August 2019, 09:30
You can dredge all you want, but the Suir, Nore and Barrow will refill it with silt weekly.
Hydro dynamics will decide where the mud goes. Move if and it will just block up somewhere else. The reclaimation of rungaskiddy caused severe silting in other sides of the harbour. Whitegate for example, up to the early 80s had 3 usable piers. A combination of reclaimation at Aghada and Ringaskiddy means these piers are now dry except for a 4 hour window daily. Rowing regatta which were once a weekly event, can now only take place during a favourable spring tide, when there is enough water to lift the football sized lane marker buoys.
Even with dredging at Duncannon, you are still only opening the port to slightly larger ships that currently call. You can't change the long trip upriver, (presumably under costly pilot) to Bellview. This is why Port of Cork has moved downstream, to remove this half hour trip from visiting vessels.
Cork has a minimum of 11m below datum as far as the new port with the old berth maintained at 13.4m. A vessel fully laden at that draft can enter or leave at any state of tide.
Shipowners dont like being constrained by tides where possible.

In bygone days the State had a number of dredgers in permanent use, including the old Sisyphus. All that ended in the 1970's. Now the State has NO means of maintaining harbours. The port development, EU funded , at Belleview included building 3 Groines from opposite shore to speed flow and move mud , which it did , but is now silting up Cheekpoint boat harbour. Dredging would be needed twice a year to keep Cheekpoint open-if we had a dredger. Dredging is part of all Harbour endeavours but we wait to be buried before getting in somebody to do it for us. Whitegate was always short of depth and operated boating in the highwater window. The State inherited a range of ports and dredgers but being Sea Blind they pushed it into the Private sector and the lucrative tender business. Our only hope for the future is to educate a range of Hydraulic Engineers and have such a Department in the Office of Public Works. Perhaps build hydraulic models of our major ports for College instruction and experimentation. Doing nothing is not an option. We are an Island.

Anzac
9th August 2019, 12:46
Most of the general public are unaware of the progress in nuclear energy.

Interesting presentations here on future energy requirements via Gen IV Thorium technology such as Molten Salt Reactors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHO1ebNxhVI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs8p8rYRLBM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7o9Uu0ey2s

Recently the Japanese Government has placed Gen IV Thorium as the priority future energy strategy, which is likely to act as a catalyst in terms of the investment and backing the Thorium sector needed.

EUFighter
9th August 2019, 13:23
In bygone days the State had a number of dredgers in permanent use, including the old Sisyphus. All that ended in the 1970's. Now the State has NO means of maintaining harbours. The port development, EU funded , at Belleview included building 3 Groines from opposite shore to speed flow and move mud , which it did , but is now silting up Cheekpoint boat harbour. Dredging would be needed twice a year to keep Cheekpoint open-if we had a dredger. Dredging is part of all Harbour endeavours but we wait to be buried before getting in somebody to do it for us. Whitegate was always short of depth and operated boating in the highwater window. The State inherited a range of ports and dredgers but being Sea Blind they pushed it into the Private sector and the lucrative tender business. Our only hope for the future is to educate a range of Hydraulic Engineers and have such a Department in the Office of Public Works. Perhaps build hydraulic models of our major ports for College instruction and experimentation. Doing nothing is not an option. We are an Island.

We are indeed an island but one made of small silos. I do not think that the State should be in control of everything but there are certain strategic infrastructure items which need the state to be in-control. Ports and other marine infrastructure are ones along with airports and roads. As we are a small nation we do not need loads of different port authorities all battling against each other, just look at what happened with the HSE. It would be better to have a strong single Port Authority developing and maintaining out port capacity for the overall good of the nation. A single independent authority would have the resources to conduct the necessary research, educate hydraulic engineers and maintain the equipment to ensure the operation of their ports.

Sparky42
9th August 2019, 14:36
We are indeed an island but one made of small silos. I do not think that the State should be in control of everything but there are certain strategic infrastructure items which need the state to be in-control. Ports and other marine infrastructure are ones along with airports and roads. As we are a small nation we do not need loads of different port authorities all battling against each other, just look at what happened with the HSE. It would be better to have a strong single Port Authority developing and maintaining out port capacity for the overall good of the nation. A single independent authority would have the resources to conduct the necessary research, educate hydraulic engineers and maintain the equipment to ensure the operation of their ports.

In the model of Port Ownership I think we decided (as we do many times) to follow the UK's policy on Ports rather than other EU nations policies (though it can go the other way in some states), I'm not sure now if we could get away with bringing them into one entity in regards to EU rules. But yes it can be frustrating when you have the Ports acting against each other at times.

na grohmiti
9th August 2019, 17:09
The ports? The south of dublin port is competing with the north.

Sparky42
9th August 2019, 19:48
The ports? The south of dublin port is competing with the north.

No like how Waterford objected to planning for Ringaskiddy's development as a tactical move, just increases costs long term.

ancientmariner
10th August 2019, 09:26
Most of the general public are unaware of the progress in nuclear energy.

Interesting presentations here on future energy requirements via Gen IV Thorium technology such as Molten Salt Reactors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHO1ebNxhVI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs8p8rYRLBM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7o9Uu0ey2s

Recently the Japanese Government has placed Gen IV Thorium as the priority future energy strategy, which is likely to act as a catalyst in terms of the investment and backing the Thorium sector needed.

To be honest Thorium 90 and it's uses is not a Eureka moment. It has been used in nuclear energy but particularly when bombarded with neutrons, it becomes Uranium 233, a much used material for nuclear weapons. The promotion of its use has to overcome all the usual problems- mining- refining- cost of acquisition-illegal diversion to other uses such as U-233. Other than that No problem.

Anzac
11th August 2019, 08:30
To be honest Thorium 90 and it's uses is not a Eureka moment. It has been used in nuclear energy but particularly when bombarded with neutrons, it becomes Uranium 233, a much used material for nuclear weapons.

Uranium-233 other than the odd research project has rarely been used for nuclear weapons as it is much shorter-lived than the uranium-235 and does not produce enough yield. There is no eureka moment but its prospects for being the only non intermittent baseline energy source that we know of that produces virtually zero carbon that can power cities like Tokyo that have the population of Canada, no wonder the Japanese (who know and have experienced the effects of old school nuclear energy) are banking on it, as are a number of countries. When people like Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann and James Hansen or NASA, leading Climate change scientists endorse it to combat climate change, then I tend to sit up and take notice. More notice than some lobbyists for the commercially threaten renewable lobby.

ancientmariner
11th August 2019, 11:43
Uranium-233 other than the odd research project has rarely been used for nuclear weapons as it is much shorter-lived than the uranium-235 and does not produce enough yield. There is no eureka moment but its prospects for being the only non intermittent baseline energy source that we know of that produces virtually zero carbon that can power cities like Tokyo that have the population of Canada, no wonder the Japanese (who know and have experienced the effects of old school nuclear energy) are banking on it, as are a number of countries. When people like Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann and James Hansen or NASA, leading Climate change scientists endorse it to combat climate change, then I tend to sit up and take notice. More notice than some lobbyists for the commercially threaten renewable lobby.

Just pointing out that it had and has a weapon use. Thorium is present in Ireland in varying quantities. Irish geophysicists have done an aerial mapping exercise. It has already been proposed, in the past few years, as a possible fuel for small Thermal Breeder reactors. I am for clean energy, once the major radiation hazards are minimised. With the development of Thermal breeders in India , China, Canada, and now Japan there will be a depth of knowledge to allow us to make a sensible decision. From what I have read about Thorium it requires a high degree of handling in the matter of gamma Radiation. As I have said once it is a sure footed process let us consider it as an option in clean sustainable energy.

GoneToTheCanner
11th August 2019, 12:56
When port management went private, the very first thing that happened was that management slashed jobs, awarded themselves huge pay rises and end user costs rose accordingly. Having charge of docks and wharves went from being a tedious civil service job to being a ticket to the lottery.

na grohmiti
11th August 2019, 13:24
On the other hand, work practices before privatisation were highly inefficient, rife with nepotism and cronyism, all the while being both a dangerous and humiliating place to work. Those who worked dockside were "picked" by foremen depending on the work to be done. Friends and those who were owed favours were first to get work. Many did not do any work but still got paid. Many more who turned up to get work, were not picked and went home literally empty handed, hoping that tomorrow would be a better day.
I remember being dockside in an irish port while a ship was departing. One "docker" was present. It was a relatively long ship and the pilot was keen to get going. Call came to let go and docker saunters to take off forward. I offered to let go aft as I was standing next to it and lines were slack. "No panic" he says. Meanwhile crew are waiting impatiently to bring lines in and are wondering why I, still in overalls having just got off the ship I was then working on, would not let go.
Eventually said docker wanders over and let's go the lines next to me. "I get paid for all the lines" was his obtuse observation.
Privatisation wiped out this nonsense and dockside became a safer place to work. Less accidents with overloaded cranes collapsing, less falls from height while working cargo. A much more tidy dockside.
The change from corkdocks to Port of Cork was dramatic in its positivity. I am certain many card schools suffered as a result of the changes though.

ancientmariner
11th August 2019, 13:47
On the other hand, work practices before privatisation were highly inefficient, rife with nepotism and cronyism, all the while being both a dangerous and humiliating place to work. Those who worked dockside were "picked" by foremen depending on the work to be done. Friends and those who were owed favours were first to get work. Many did not do any work but still got paid. Many more who turned up to get work, were not picked and went home literally empty handed, hoping that tomorrow would be a better day.
I remember being dockside in an irish port while a ship was departing. One "docker" was present. It was a relatively long ship and the pilot was keen to get going. Call came to let go and docker saunters to take off forward. I offered to let go aft as I was standing next to it and lines were slack. "No panic" he says. Meanwhile crew are waiting impatiently to bring lines in and are wondering why I, still in overalls having just got off the ship I was then working on, would not let go.
Eventually said docker wanders over and let's go the lines next to me. "I get paid for all the lines" was his obtuse observation.
Privatisation wiped out this nonsense and dockside became a safer place to work. Less accidents with overloaded cranes collapsing, less falls from height while working cargo. A much more tidy dockside.
The change from corkdocks to Port of Cork was dramatic in its positivity. I am certain many card schools suffered as a result of the changes though.

In general I agree with the outline sentiments of Gone to the Canner. Part of the problem were the work practices on the Docks and on the Ships, where the Unions where controlled by, and owned by Families who still surface on the wrong side of the law. However the Government is responsible for running the country and MUST control and oversee vital services such as Transport, Communications, Defence, Security, and Social matters. People who actually run most of these services have a different set of priorities , often killing off viable projects, in the interests of expediency or windfalls.
In these Brexit days the Government needs to take the reins.

EUFighter
11th August 2019, 13:54
On the other hand, work practices before privatisation were highly inefficient, rife with nepotism and cronyism, all the while being both a dangerous and humiliating place to work. Those who worked dockside were "picked" by foremen depending on the work to be done. Friends and those who were owed favours were first to get work. Many did not do any work but still got paid. Many more who turned up to get work, were not picked and went home literally empty handed, hoping that tomorrow would be a better day.
I remember being dockside in an irish port while a ship was departing. One "docker" was present. It was a relatively long ship and the pilot was keen to get going. Call came to let go and docker saunters to take off forward. I offered to let go aft as I was standing next to it and lines were slack. "No panic" he says. Meanwhile crew are waiting impatiently to bring lines in and are wondering why I, still in overalls having just got off the ship I was then working on, would not let go.
Eventually said docker wanders over and let's go the lines next to me. "I get paid for all the lines" was his obtuse observation.
Privatisation wiped out this nonsense and dockside became a safer place to work. Less accidents with overloaded cranes collapsing, less falls from height while working cargo. A much more tidy dockside.
The change from corkdocks to Port of Cork was dramatic in its positivity. I am certain many card schools suffered as a result of the changes though.

Totally agree with a lot, but the question is and it is not just for ports; why could it not be accomplished by a semi-state if the political will was there.

Graylion
11th August 2019, 17:10
Most of the general public are unaware of the progress in nuclear energy.

Interesting presentations here on future energy requirements via Gen IV Thorium technology such as Molten Salt Reactors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHO1ebNxhVI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs8p8rYRLBM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7o9Uu0ey2s

Recently the Japanese Government has placed Gen IV Thorium as the priority future energy strategy, which is likely to act as a catalyst in terms of the investment and backing the Thorium sector needed.

MSRs are 50s tech. And currently they are trying to solve the corrosion problems posed by that kind of substance. Not holding my breath.

ancientmariner
11th August 2019, 19:39
Totally agree with a lot, but the question is and it is not just for ports; why could it not be accomplished by a semi-state if the political will was there.

I hate saying this but the route to political power and personal fortune is tied up in board appointments and granting of contracts. The Dail is largely composed of people who will never be poor again. They operate on a quid pro quo basis and think everybody in Government Service is doing the same. They have no idea what is required to run a proper Defence capability and are happy to make a few changes on a generational time scale. The equipment budget is never fit for purpose. They are currently short of 1000 personnel and see it as an annual saving of Euro20m and in no other way. Such money should be used in up-scaling Defence capability. In general polititians think they own the Gross revenue, while in Africa they keep it for themselves, in our case it's shared with those that will enhance their future. The BIG Fellows and Girls.

Anzac
12th August 2019, 08:24
MSRs are 50s tech. And currently they are trying to solve the corrosion problems posed by that kind of substance. Not holding my breath.

So fuel cells then must be 1830's tech, wind turbines 1880's tech, solar cells from the 1940's ... the corrosion issue was solved 45 years ago at Oak Ridge by using Hastelloy-N in the molten salt outlined in the Research Paper by JW Kroger titled:

EVALUATION OF HASTELLOY N ALLOYS AFTER NINE YEARS EXPOSURE TO BOTH A MOLTEN FLUORIDE SALT AND AIR AT TEMPERATURES FROM 700 TO 560°C

It was concluded from this experiment that Hastelloy N is suitable for long-term use as a container material for the molten salt used in this test and has acceptable air oxidation resistance at the temperatures tested. Core temperature of an active MSR is 500-600°C, at atmospheric pressure.

Science and engineering does not stand still and of course both the Japanese and Chinese during the last decade have further refined the chemical engineering originally outlined by Kroger noting that further dense pure metal (Ni or Co) coatings on the can effectively hinder the penetration of the molten fluoride and thus improve the corrosion resistance of the substrate remarkably at temperatures in excess of 900 C.

ancientmariner
17th August 2019, 10:39
I hate saying this but the route to political power and personal fortune is tied up in board appointments and granting of contracts. The Dail is largely composed of people who will never be poor again. They operate on a quid pro quo basis and think everybody in Government Service is doing the same. They have no idea what is required to run a proper Defence capability and are happy to make a few changes on a generational time scale. The equipment budget is never fit for purpose. They are currently short of 1000 personnel and see it as an annual saving of Euro20m and in no other way. Such money should be used in up-scaling Defence capability. In general polititians think they own the Gross revenue, while in Africa they keep it for themselves, in our case it's shared with those that will enhance their future. The BIG Fellows and Girls.

There is a history of the Irish Maritime scene, which was put together by Mr Basil Peterson and the then Irish Shipping Limited in 1961/62. It has a foreword by Taoiseach Sean Lemass and a comment by the relevant Minister Erskine Childers. The book is called " THE TURN OF THE TIDE " and outlines the shortage of Maritime capability pre WW11 and the effort to cobble together a 16 ship Merchant Service to supply our needs during that war.
A study was undertaken, and a post war aspiration was put in place that being caught without resources and a means to guard them would never happen again. The outcome was the foundation of a Naval Service as part of the PDF and an intention to achieve a 200,000 DWT deep sea Cargo fleet. Initially the aspiration took off with the State Shipping company buiding up to 24 ships, some at home in the New Ship Building Yard at Cork.
However in the 1980's the visionary Sean Lemass was well gone, and before that decade had elapsed, both the illustrious ISL and VCD were gone. In the circumstances we have NO deep sea Fleet and the Naval Service is struggling . I'm afraid that THE TURN OF THE TIDE was overtaken by a self inflicted Tsunami. The Book is worth having on the shelf with Tables showing the growing fleet right up to the Cliff edge.

na grohmiti
17th August 2019, 13:48
Whatever about a naval fleet, what state still operates, or has a share in, modern merchant vessels? In europe, privatisation of all state assets seem to have been the legacy of the 80s. We still have quite a decent tonnage under irish flags or irish ownership

ancientmariner
17th August 2019, 14:53
Whatever about a naval fleet, what state still operates, or has a share in, modern merchant vessels? In europe, privatisation of all state assets seem to have been the legacy of the 80s. We still have quite a decent tonnage under irish flags or irish ownership

The list of ships regularly servicing Irish Ports North and South does not contain cargo ships flagged in this state except for some of Irish Ferries. Arklow ships come and go as tramps , not as dedicated cargo liners, and some of those are not Irish Flagged by dispute with Government.
The Register up to 1955 was maintained by Board of Trade and is available on BT files. The Multifaceted site maintained by Mr. Ross's Department doesn't display the current list of the Register of Cargo ships. AFAIK no reputable Irish Company, servicing Ireland , owns deepsea tonnage. There are one or two cattle boats knocking about.
A sole Island is sea dependent for import/Export. I'm sure AP Moeller was not impeded by his Government in owning almost a 1000 large ships. The bigger players internationally are owned in the Far East-all State owned. We are too small to depend on others and in conflict will again be found wanting.
On the 17/18 August there were 20 ship movements in Dublin, 3 of those were Irish Ferries, the rest were non-Irish. Our Marine Development Office is hiding and missing Sean Lemass.

ancientmariner
19th August 2019, 09:18
The list of ships regularly servicing Irish Ports North and South does not contain cargo ships flagged in this state except for some of Irish Ferries. Arklow ships come and go as tramps , not as dedicated cargo liners, and some of those are not Irish Flagged by dispute with Government.
The Register up to 1955 was maintained by Board of Trade and is available on BT files. The Multifaceted site maintained by Mr. Ross's Department doesn't display the current list of the Register of Cargo ships. AFAIK no reputable Irish Company, servicing Ireland , owns deepsea tonnage. There are one or two cattle boats knocking about.
A sole Island is sea dependent for import/Export. I'm sure AP Moeller was not impeded by his Government in owning almost a 1000 large ships. The bigger players internationally are owned in the Far East-all State owned. We are too small to depend on others and in conflict will again be found wanting.
On the 17/18 August there were 20 ship movements in Dublin, 3 of those were Irish Ferries, the rest were non-Irish. Our Marine Development Office is hiding and missing Sean Lemass.

Regretfully I am wrong about Irish Ferries ( rump of ISL and B&I ) they have flagged out all of their vessels to Cyprus, mainly, and mostly foreign crew their vessels.

ancientmariner
24th August 2019, 11:19
Regretfully I am wrong about Irish Ferries ( rump of ISL and B&I ) they have flagged out all of their vessels to Cyprus, mainly, and mostly foreign crew their vessels.

To maintain our need for goods and services there were almost 13,000 movements of Marine traffic in Irish Ports in 2017. If we strip out tiddlers there were about 9000 medium to large ship movements or roughly 30 ships per day every day. Irish Shipping is now gone 30 years and Irish Flagged ships are scarce. It seems we are not providing any of the means to maintain our trade. The Irish Marine Development Office seems to be a collector of Statistics with little development of a Merchant Fleet potential.
With no home based Merchant fleet the politicians are trying to build one ( Merchant Shipping Act 2014 ) by encouraging others to flag in, like they do in mini countries like Malta, Cyprus, Marshall Islands, Panama, Liberia.
As a matter of Interest Cork handled 18m tonnes of shipped goods in 2017, and has a repair facility up to 20,000t +/-. Dublin handled 175m tonnes and has shut down their repair facility. In the 13,000 ship movements nationally about 4000+ were ships with dimensions beyond any drydock facility in Ireland. In 1984 we could tick most of the boxes on ships and ship repairs , now we are utterly dependent on uncontrollable entities.

ancientmariner
7th September 2019, 21:56
As a matter of Interest Cork handled 18m tonnes of shipped goods in 2017, and has a repair facility up to 20,000t +/-. Dublin handled 175m tonnes and has shut down their repair facility. In the 13,000 ship movements nationally about 4000+ were ships with dimensions beyond any drydock facility in Ireland. In 1984 we could tick most of the boxes on ships and ship repairs , now we are utterly dependent on uncontrollable entities.

It is my opinion that the development of Cork Lower Harbour ( Ringaskiddy Bay ) is going to lead to major congestion, especially when all the coastal aspects and container handling facilities are added in to the same area. It is obvious a new port should have been planned to prevent a choke point occurring between White Point and the Naval base. In Ringaskiddy Bay all ships will be maneuvering in the same basin area requiring a hierarchy or Rota for permission to depart or arrive. The same general area is also used for shipping to and from Cork Drydocks.