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Come-quickly
8th April 2004, 13:03
Im just wondering would it make sense to use the L70 guns in a ground role either on a flatbed truck or mounted on an AFV givent their obsolescence in their intended role?
The Soviet ZSU-23 has been widely and succesfully used in this role particularly as an anti-ambush weapon in various African campaigns.
The L70 does I notice appear to have a rather small magazine capacity but it does have a high rate of fire and explosive shells.

Opinions on a postcard...or here whichever you prefer

Come-quickly
8th April 2004, 13:40
Good question, could the gun be fitted to a different mounting system to adapt it for the roel or would the cost be prohibitive.

Crew: 6 (4 on mount)

Calibre: 40mm.

Elevation/Depression: +90º/-4º.

Traverse: 360º.

Ammunition Range: 12,500 metres - maximum horizontal.
..........................8700 metres - maximum vertical.
..........................4000 metres - effective vertical

Earhart
8th April 2004, 14:08
The EL70 40mm is used for low arial defence and pin point targets e.g. bridges and troops. It can easily be used in the ground role and this would be safer for those in the flycatcher as it can be fired by the No.1 with no interference from the radar system.

Come-quickly
8th April 2004, 15:21
So would it be of use as a mobile contact breaker in Liberia?
The SADF used 20mm/23mm equipped unimogs in Angola travelling at the back of a convoy to be brought forward in the event of an ambush to overwhelm enemy firepower.

Earhart
8th April 2004, 15:44
What do you want to blow up in Liberia? I don't think it would be a good move to go in with 40mm rounds and start blowing up things left right and centre. Who are SADF?

ForkTailedDevil
8th April 2004, 15:46
SADF-South African Defense Force

Come-quickly
8th April 2004, 17:08
The idea is to use it to discourage the use of roadblocks and ambushes against convoys by retaining an extra sting in the tail, why would you want to go shooting people with 5.56mm rounds in Liberia to discourage them from shooting anyone else.
The Swedish Armoured infantry coy we are operating with already use 40mm weapons (in the turret of the CV90 AIFV) so its not like we'd be introducing ICBMs to a swordfight.
Liberia was just an example I was exploring the potential use of this weapon system in any peace-enforcement/peacekeeping mission.

Earhart
8th April 2004, 17:47
Ok, for road blocks, it would take the gun crew about 20min to put the gun into action and blast the road block to kingdom come. But really, do you want to go blowing creators in Liberia? Maybe you do!
Lets say you do, then you have 5250kg of metal to tow around with you plus your gun kit... and your gun crew (4 would do you for this exercise). Not to mind actually getting the EL70's over to Liberia. Surely there are easier ways of discouraging roadblocks.

Come-quickly
8th April 2004, 17:59
This is why the initial post was a question I wanted to know these things.
So what about remounting the weapon to make it more suited for the purpose, the 40mm is the only weapon in Irish service that combines a high ROF with enough explosive power to surpress partially or totally unseen enemy hence its potential value as a leveller in ambush situations.

ForkTailedDevil
8th April 2004, 19:32
Ambushes are generally well planned use heavy weapons and well sited positions and setting it in terrain that favours the attackers and doesnt provide escape for those who have walked into it.Weapons to break this need to be very quickly dployed and need to be fired on the move.Best way to deal with an ambush is to pick the fastest way out and blast your way through it.MK19, HMGs, fast firing20 and 30mm cannon on APCs like the Warrior are whats needed.The ZSU has a massive rate of fire and can be moved and aimed quickly making it good for this role. L70 is ideal in setting an ambush when you get it in position but probably not fast enough to put it into action during one.Would you want to try whilst RPGs and all sorts of other weapons are being fired in your direction?

Goldie fish
8th April 2004, 19:42
To mount a weapon with such a high c/g on a vehicle would require stabilisers being deployed before firing commences,further increasing weight of the vehicle. Better off aquiring something already in service,like a CV90

Come-quickly
8th April 2004, 20:23
Or mount an already in production turret on an already in service vehicle preferably.
FTD: Thanks awfully for the lecture on basic tactics this being a board populated primarily by soldiers we never would have known that.

ForkTailedDevil
8th April 2004, 20:42
If you read it properly you will see I was saying that you need fast firing weapons that do not require time to be set up due to the nature of an ambush and an L70 is not that weapon as opposed to a lecture in tactics.Read these quotes

"Weapons to break this need to be very quickly dployed and need to be fired on the move"

"MK19, HMGs, fast firing20 and 30mm cannon on APCs like the Warrior are whats needed"

"L70 is ideal in setting an ambush when you get it in position but probably not fast enough to put it into action during one"

I mention basic tactics to point out that you don't get time to start deploying heavy weapons.OK?

FMolloy
8th April 2004, 20:48
The Warrior's rarden cannon is an antiquated design that has to fed by 5-round clips, they'd be better off with a more modern weapon.

ForkTailedDevil
8th April 2004, 20:53
Ok, change Warrior to Bradley.The Bradley’s main armament is the M242 25m Chain Gun.This should be slightly better at the job.I had no idea that it was only 5 round clips.I would have expected at least a 50 round feed.

Docman
8th April 2004, 21:30
Problem is that the ambushers would make sure to take out the most serious threat to them first. It is great having all these weapons, but the tend to draw fire.

Mobility is highly important in an ambush, both attacker and defender.

Come-quickly
8th April 2004, 22:41
Hence the idea of keeping a fairly low key equalizer that can be rapidly deployed as opposed to a front guard which should ideally be an MBT or at least a significantly augmented AIFV (eg. with an AGL pintle or hull mounted in addition to normal weapons fit).
Besides we're talking about things that are or realistically might become available to the Irish army.
Just out of curiosity how come a twin barrelled 23mm cannon can be fired from the back of a UNIMOG truck with no stabilisation? Is it a particularly low recoil design or would the crew have been jumping from side to side?
Would a mobile ballast make truck mounting any more dynamic?

ForkTailedDevil
8th April 2004, 22:42
Well, then.So we have basically got a consensus that the L70 is too big and unweildly and as such too slow to bring into a firing position in an ambush, smaller vehicles with suitable weapons for ambush counter attack are going to be taken out first.We are probably back to rushing the enemies positions and thus negating the heavy weapons or hasty withdrawal.I think the basic advice on dealing with ambushes has never changed no matter what the weapons, don't get pulled into one.

Come-quickly
8th April 2004, 23:14
Which is why we're talking about a means of extracting from one.
What are the weight and size stats for the L70 and how much of that is comprised of the carriage etc?

Farel'
8th April 2004, 23:38
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/cv90/images/cv90_3.jpg

This vehicle is fitted with the Bofors 40mm gun. Mowag also produce a 10x10 apc with this gun mounted as its main armament.

Come-quickly
8th April 2004, 23:44
That radar dome suggests an AAA role

ForkTailedDevil
8th April 2004, 23:56
I've been looking online to, L70 related stuff isn't common and its all AAA stuff.

Farel'
9th April 2004, 00:01
I think the CV90 also comes with a 40mm gun when fitted as an infantry fighting vehicle, But the gun is designed for engaging surface targets rather than aircraft. But would a dual purpose gun not make more sense?

Come-quickly
9th April 2004, 00:16
Dual purpose? That depends on whether you want an AAA gun with targeting systems which would be impractical and prohibitively expensive or a ground weapon with sufficient elevation to engage low flying helicopters which is fairly common but then you're talking about a contact weapon as opposed to an AA gun with fused shells.

fiannoglach
9th April 2004, 16:31
At the moment in Liberia, a lot of the technicals are carrying single or double 23's jury-rigged on pick-ups. In an ideal world something like a Vulcan (M113 30mm mounted Minigun), but then a lot of the checkpoints in Liberia consist of 2-3 hoojahs with a piece of string across the road, go figure. Also best way out of an ambush is not to stroll in, proper use of scouts and fire / manoevre.

chuck6d
9th April 2004, 16:54
The last time we used vulcans they were used on the ground in Panama"Operation Just Cause". They were used against a PDF barracks. If you have the firepower to bear......Bring it on!

fiannoglach
9th April 2004, 19:02
Hey Tim, What's happening, G said you rang during the week, only back last night.

jock
9th April 2004, 20:01
The warrior's cannon is actually fed by three round clips and it can take two clips at a time allowing a six round burst. However the weapon was designed more for accuracy than rate of fire and as such is one of the most accurate weapons of it's type. As for an anti-ambush weapon the HE round is like a frag grenade that can be fired to 2000m.

hptmurphy
9th April 2004, 20:13
whats the panic in deploying 40mm bofors when there are already 20mm and 90mm weapons which are highly mobile as they are mounted on AMLS and can do far more damage than the 40mm weapon....reality check please!:mad:

Come-quickly
9th April 2004, 21:33
Well actually the question started out as "is this a way to make good use out of" and grew up from there.