PDA

View Full Version : New Pistol for Defence Forces.



Pages : [1] 2

Goldie fish
22nd February 2003, 02:33
Sources inform me that a competition is currently in progress to decide on a new Pistol for the Defence forces,with many of the old Brownings suffering from slide failure,and the increased use of pistols by the Naval Service for Armed Boarding Parties since the retirement of the Gustav.
The current favourite is the Beretta as used by the US Forces,and I would be interested to hear opinions of our brethern in the US of this weapon,which replaced the Mighty Colt 45 in the late 80s. The Italians have been good to the Defence forces lately,with such equipment as the OTO Melara guns on the New PVs,the Iveco ASTRA DROPS,and the New 4x4 Truck.
How do you rate the Beretta operationally?
The choices given are those in the running for the present competition. Your votes would be appreciated.
It is worth noting that all types fire 9x19mm Parabellum.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0357.jpg
Glock17,(worth Noting that the Glock 18 has the option to fire full auto..)

http://www.remtek.com/arms/sig/model/226/226a.gif
SIG P226 ,

http://www.carl-walther.de/images/p99_2621738.jpg
Walther P99 ,

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/cz75.jpg
CZ75 ,

http://www.great-lakes.org/graphics-2/Beretta/92FSOD.jpg
Beretta 92 ,

http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/mk3/mk3.gif
Browning Hi Power(FN GP35) ,

California Tanker
22nd February 2003, 07:56
The Glock is a love-it-or-hate-it weapon.

Personally, I hate it.

I have great respect for the thing on a mechanical basis, I've a friend of mine who swears by it. Certainly it puts the round where I aim it at, and it has a very high magazine capacity. (On the order of 15+1). It's also hugely reliable. However, it just doesn't fit comfortably in my hand, it's a little squat, and just feels 'wrong'. Smaller-handed persons may also have difficulty in reaching around the grip. I'm in two minds about the symptom of the Glock KaBOOM! Allegedly, this symptom is caused by the barrel and chamber not being fully supported, and it does come up in conversation on various fora (Shortened to KB!), but frequently, the problem is with the ammunition. (Over-powered or badly made)
I also think it's ugly! Also, frequently the magazines do not drop clear of the weapon when released.

The Glock was not entered into the US competition because the US wanted a double-action feature: if the round didn't fire the first time, they wanted to be able to just pull the trigger to try again. Glock's internal striker system doesn't do this. (Though frankly, if I were using the thing in combat, I'd just rack the slide and eject the finnicky round)

You may have three contendors from the SIG-Sauer factories.. The P-226, P-228 and P-2309. The first two are 'Classic' SIGs, the latter a 'SIG Pro'. The P-228 has been accepted into US service as the M-11. Only two weapons passed the US Army's selection tests, the SIG being one of them, the Beretta being the other. The main difference between the -228 and the -226 is that the former is a compact design. The shorter barrel and smaller capacity magazine weapon was selected primarily for MP and aircrew use, since there are frequently those in those branches who have smaller hands and simply couldn't handle the M-9. (Read: Women). The only reason the Beretta won over the SIG was on cost. Both had met all qualifications. SIG has a reputation for reliability and quality. Not quite Kimber standard, but certainly upper-end.

If I am sent on a deployment anywhere, I'm entrusting my life to a SIG. I have purchased a P-2340 (.40/357 version of the 2309), and it's going with me in my holster. The SIG-Pro series differs from the Classics in having a polymer frame, like the Glocks. It's less expensive, but the quality is as good as the Classics. It sits a little higher than the Glock though and, due to the plastic frame but metal slide, can feel a little top-heavy if you're not used to it. All SIGs come with a decocker for a safe lowering of the hammer when a round is chambered.

A point to note is that neither Glocks nor SIGs come with any sort of external safety catches whatsoever. There is no way that the thing can go off if the trigger isn't pulled, but it's simply a case of 'when you pull it, it goes bang'. These are weapons designed for high-stress combat.. people have died because they forgot to take off a safety catch under pressure.

I cannot speak for either the Walther or the CZ, but by reputation on shooting fora, both of them are fine weapons.

Similarly, I've not mucked around with the Browning Mk 3. But they'd really have to get rid of that annoying magazine safety. Such a feature has no place in a combat pistol.

The M-9 Beretta is the last of our bunch.. (Personally, I might also recommend the H&K USP, I have found it to be the nicest, smoothest 9mm I've ever used). It suffered some bad press after slides would break and hit shooters in the face, but this was traced back to seriously overpowered ammunition used by SEALs. Certainly it's accurate and easy to shoot, my first time on the range, I scored 'Expert'. I wonder sometimes about the semi-exposed barrel, if it'll pick up dirt or not into the mechanisms. We've had a few failures-to-fire at the range, but we're not entirely sure if it was the fault of the weapon, the ammo, or people mixing up slides and frames. (In California.. or at least in Santa Cruz, we have to store the slides and frames separately). There's absolutely nothing wrong with this weapon either.

NTM

Neptune
22nd February 2003, 16:41
I believe the SIG has already been purchased by the DF, the corps of engineers are making their way around the country at a leisurely pace condeming all BAP's on sight !!!

I also heard that the SIG purchased is double action only, i.e. most SIG's are cocked and fired with the trigger for the first round, thereafter the trigger releases the hammer only.

Result -- 14lbs trigger pressure on every round.

This is not a marksmans weapon.

And no they are not called Markspeople Earhart!:p

Bailer
22nd February 2003, 16:57
<font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">Personally I'd stick with the BAP (MKiii) The newer version of a reliable weapon Simple enough

</font>

Ex-soldier
23rd February 2003, 02:04
I own Beretta 92D. I use it on a daily basis and it has never given me a problem. I chose it over the Sig for two reasons. The Sig did not feel right in my hand and it cost almost twice as much. Incidentally, my friend bought a Sig at the same time I bought the Beretta and his was recalled due to manufacturing faults that would cause major safety issues if not repaired. Neither weapon will cause a person to shoot better and both of them are excellent weapons. I have heard about the jamming problems and they are normally caused by using ammo that is not powerful enough to cycle the slide.

jbkenn
24th February 2003, 01:14
Have a look here, this is the madra's cahones
http://www.metalstorm.com/
This is the weapon of the future, based on, believe it or not. inkjet printer technology!. unfortunately you need a broadband connection to download the promo mpg's there huge

jbkenn

Loque
24th February 2003, 08:52
As far as pistols go the beratta would be quite adequate, the army has already bought the sig for the MP's so it may just continue buying the sig as a replacement.
Personally I only use the pistol once or twice on the range and also for security. I do think that the BAP should be replace ASAP before someone gets injured from using such an old and worn weapon, there is one in my unit with an almost smooth bore from so much use. Oh yeah and guess you gets to use it on the range, that's right, muggins here!
As far as smg's go, I think that the gustaf smg should have been replaced with a H&k MP5 or an FN P90.

²°°³Soldier
24th February 2003, 09:03
I may be wrong (it won't be the first time - before someone else says it :rolleyes: ) but didn't the US purchase the Beretta 92 to replace their Colt 45s. Anyone know (I'm looking at CT and Ex-Pat) how these weapons worked out.

I would imagine that if the DF have purchased the Sig for the PA's they would have tendered for the entire replacement of the BAP, the PA's just got theirs first.

California Tanker
24th February 2003, 14:46
See my (limited) comments on the M-9 above. The American army gives almost everything an "M" series designation, regardless of what the manufacturer calls it. (Much like the Brits giving most things an 'L' designator). Basically, it's doing the job asked of it, other than the size issue, requiring the purchase of the M-11s, it seems to be doing well.

US Pistols in service

M-1911A1 (Colt 45)
M-9 PDW (Beretta 92FS)
M-11 (SG-Sauer P-228)

Goldie fish
24th February 2003, 15:16
Something else that must also be considered,though many may consider it trivial, is will the new pistol fit the holsters currently in use?
The Gardai have this difficulty at present as most,if not all of issued holsters are for the revolver,and the type of holster sold by Protak is unsuitable for the SIG already in use by certain garda units.It has a taller frame and will not sit as well as other automatics,such as the Walther P7 previously used by the Gardai specialist units. The solution for most firearms users has been to order a personal holster from the US.
The fact is that any new pistol will spend the majority of its time in a holster,and all decisions will depend on this.
How many wearing pistols have found it impossible to close vehicle doors because the holster is in the way?
This is where the Glock and Walther could loose out,because their shape does not suit the current issue holster. Its taken long enough to change the pistol,having to change holsters again to facilitate a new weapon would not go down well with the Q.

yellowjacket
29th May 2003, 01:31
Just to update this one, press reports stated that the SigSauer 226 was chosen, and then the purchase was "deferred".

It also had the most votes on this thread. Coincidence?
:p

Lost Watchdog
29th May 2003, 17:15
The West Australian police are currently replacing their S&W .38 revolvers with .40 Glock 22s. The coppers union is bitching that cos it has no external safety catch it can go off unexpectantly, as as happened a few times in Sydney, and killing the officer or his mates. But no one seems to have questioned why a copper would have a round chambered when his pistol is holstered. It's simple really, keep your finger off the bloody trigger. I've had a blast of the Glock and like others have said you either love it or hate it. I find the pistol grip too small. I know its not NATO standard but .40 packs a punch. I've also had a go at a .40 Beretta, absolutely shagging awesome.

Goldie fish
29th May 2003, 17:46
The time taken to draw and cock a sidearm in a police situation is the time taken for the other guy to get off the first shot.
This is why most police forces prefer Double action Pistols and revolvers. The RUC recently decided to stick with their revolvers instead of changing to semis,as the arguement was "how do you cock a pistol while driving or if one arm is out of action?"
That was a rhetorical question,I do not expect many stupid answers..

yellowjacket
29th May 2003, 17:59
Police almost everywhere carry their sidearms with loaded chambers. In a double action pistol this isn't quite the same as "cocked". In double action pistols the hammer stays down until the trigger is pulled. Pulling the trigger also cocks the hammer immediately before firing.

The BAP is a single-action pistol, so the hammer needs to be back before pulling the trigger. This is not a generally great way to carry a holstered pistol, which is why you won't see police carrying BAPs or other single action pistols. For military users, who normally carry their weapons unchambered, this isn't a problem.

The Glock isn't really either single or double action. It doesn't have a hammer, and the striker is always cocked. It has a sophisticated trigger design to prevent the gun going off without pulling the trigger, but a fairly light trigger pull at the same time.

T.I.M.
29th May 2003, 18:19
Well seeing that the gardaí use the SIG P226 it would be the more realistic option, but personaily i preffer the FN GP35(Mk3).

Little Legionnare
30th May 2003, 18:09
WHat about the newer 2009 version of the P226?

Harry
3rd February 2004, 20:35
Now that the Department have put the Pistol contract on hold...should they re-evaluate the whole thing. A lot of US units are now moving back to the .45 ACP after 15 years of the M9 and US LEO's are flocking back to weapons like the Para Ordnance and Kimber in droves. Given the ever increasing danger of Irish Overseas ops., should the Army be giving those who use sidearms that bit more stopping power. Historically, the Irish have had strong links to the 1911, i.e. Michael Collins "Squad" were avid fans of the calibre and had the guards been armed from day one, the .45 revolver had been earmarked. I understand that in interests of compatibility with other armies, the 9mm is standard but by the way things are going in the US, how long will this be the case?. Of course for NS and possible Air Marshall ops, there is no question but use the 9mm or lower but in places like Liberia, would a 45. be better. Do the ARW have any 45.'s in their inventory??

FCA Trooper
3rd February 2004, 20:57
the wing doesnt use a .45 pistol,i think the only short they use is the 9mm sig-sauer p226.
apparently, the yanks have had a fair few problems with their 9mm pistols because their 9mm round is more powerful than that used by european armies/law enforcement,which results in increased wear-and-tear on their weapons. europe has had less trouble with the 9mm, so i doubt if anyone really feels the need to replace it on this side of the atlantic,as they do in the US.
anyway, the 9mm is in such widespread use at this stage with armies all over the world that it's hard to imagine the .45 knocking it off the top spot. a lot of armies have purchased new-generation 9mm's only fairly recently (the glock,p226 etc), and they arent about to get rid of them anytime soon.

Goldie fish
3rd February 2004, 21:26
Plus most 45 can only carry 6 to 8 rounds in the magazine,while the average 9mm can hold up to 16rounds. Stopping power is fine..but as the change to 5.56 showed,carrying more rounds is far more useful.

strummer
3rd February 2004, 22:27
Originally posted by Goldie fish
Something else that must also be considered,though many may consider it trivial, is will the new pistol fit the holsters currently in use?
The Gardai have this difficulty at present as most,if not all of issued holsters are for the revolver,and the type of holster sold by Protak is unsuitable for the SIG already in use by certain garda units.It has a taller frame and will not sit as well as other automatics,such as the Walther P7 previously used by the Gardai specialist units. The solution for most firearms users has been to order a personal holster from the US.
The fact is that any new pistol will spend the majority of its time in a holster,and all decisions will depend on this.
Its taken long enough to change the pistol,having to change holsters again to facilitate a new weapon would not go down well with the Q.

That's got to be a uniquely Irish angle on the whole issue. Deciding on a $1000 purchase (OK, up to $1000) based on reluctance to buy a $30 holster to accompany it.

Please, let someone with some sense be in charge for a while !!!

Later.

Goldie fish
3rd February 2004, 22:36
Well one holster may be $30.But considering the quantity that would have to be replaced,and the tight fistedness of the GS(who are reducing the numbers of qualified firers as a cost saving measure) will make it an issue. And who will take all the Leather 38 holsters off their hands?

Victor
3rd February 2004, 22:47
Cal Tanker, all along I had the image of you owning a Glock, even if it is known as Cuddly SIG. :)
Originally posted by strummer
That's got to be a uniquely Irish angle on the whole issue. Deciding on a $1000 purchase (OK, up to $1000) based on reluctance to buy a $30 holster to accompany it. But how would they explain throwing out perfectly good holsters to the department? :)

[MOD: Is there an echo in here?.Read the last line of Goldies post]

strummer
3rd February 2004, 23:07
But by that logic wouldn't they be complaining about disposing of the .38 revolvers too !!! Perhaps they could throw in the holsters as part of a job lot if they could sell the pistols. (yes, I know there is some directive about not selling them, perhaps they could donate them to a "poor" police force.)

Didn't the same issue come up every time they changed uniforms?

Or radios?

Or squad cars?

Later.

yellowjacket
3rd February 2004, 23:16
Military flap holsters are basically just pouches, not the same close fit as police holsters.

Victor
4th February 2004, 04:39
Originally posted by strummer
Or squad cars? Tend to be sold at auction. In fact the IRA used an ex-Garda Grenada(?) in a robbery.

DeV
4th February 2004, 15:17
SIG is a great weapon - extremely reliable
currently used by ARW

Docman
4th February 2004, 17:57
The army put the whole competition on hold a few months back due to NATO deciding to adopt a new pistol round (Possibly .40 S&W). Rather than buy a new 9mm pistol, they decided to wait and get a pistol in the new calibre. NATO have not decided yet, but the DOD have decided to cancel the whole purchase. I was reported in the irish press last autumn.

We are not going to be getting new pistols for a while.

Personally, Sig Sauer.

yellowjacket
4th February 2004, 18:10
The competition was stalled due to budget cutbacks, regardless of excuse.

Any calibre review is still at an early stage, and the 9mm wont be changing for decades as the most common issue round. The calibres being looked at are 5.7 x28mm and 4.6 x 30mm.

mutter nutter
5th February 2004, 01:11
The German military is in the process of switching from 9mm to 4.6mm with the mp-7 and a new pistol.

FCA Trooper
8th February 2004, 18:12
yeh but the 5.56mm is a rifle round,this would be a pistol round with a much smaller charge behind it

Rooster
9th February 2004, 11:30
Afew years back I worked for a unit that was armed with SIGs and we were told that before we joined when the BAP was replaced everyones marksmanship improved by about 30%.
We started off using high powered Israeli ammo but this was found to create cracks in the slide just aft of the ejection port (not good) however the armorers got around that by introducing a reinforced block that was inserted in the slide and by insisting that during cleaning the weapon the user inspected for cracks.

Goldie fish
17th October 2004, 15:17
Given that we have a new minister,and they found a few million under the matress,is there any chance that this programme will be reopened? The BAP is getting more and more scarce,as the older types fail inspection due to frame and slide weakness(Cause of a number of fatal or serious accidents in the UK)

greyfox
28th October 2004, 02:01
I'd personely go for the Beretta on cost alone.
Sigs are expensive and for that extra you certainly get a better pistol in the Sig,but the Beretta would certainly fill normal requirments.

yellowjacket
28th October 2004, 02:26
On cost terms, the Beretta wouldn't come out on top, the Glock or CZ would be well under.

Chief Bubblewrap
28th October 2004, 04:10
This might sound really dim, but don't they all do the same job? Reliability shouldn't be a problem if they are properly maintained, unless the war comes (in which case we’re screwed because we’d be allied with the Americans). Keep in mind that pistols aren't really meant for targets more than 50m away, so marginal inaccuracy is negligible. If it is the case, why not just buy the cheapest and laugh all the way to the bank?

FMolloy
28th October 2004, 04:40
This might sound really dim, but don't they all do the same job? Reliability shouldn't be a problem if they are properly maintained.

They do indeed do the same job, in the same way that all cars do the same thing, how well they do the job is another matter. As with so many other products, reliability depends as much on the effort the manufacturer put into making it as the effort the user puts into caring for it.

Going back to the car metaphor a Rover Metro & a VW Golf do the same thing, but one does it far better than the other.




...unless the war comes (in which case we’re screwed because we’d be allied with the Americans).

How does involvement in 'the war' impact on the reliability of a pistol?




Keep in mind that pistols aren't really meant for targets more than 50m away, so marginal inaccuracy is negligible.

That all depends on how 'marginal' any inaccuracy is.




If it is the case, why not just buy the cheapest and laugh all the way to the bank.

We're back to Rover Metros here.

Chief Bubblewrap
28th October 2004, 05:09
Some good points, nice use of the COMPARISON - (not a metaphor)

"How does involvement in 'the war' impact on the reliability of a pistol?"

It MIGHT be used a little more often, and in a war situation you'd like a totally reliable weapon. The Irish army are unlikely to pick a fight in the near future, and the use of the weapon would be for training purposes, and security, where it would be unlikely to be used. In these roles it would need to be reliable, but it wouldn't be in use constantly, for example, in a wartime scenario! Why buy an expensive golf when all you need is a run-about to do your shopping in, twice a week? The inherent reliability that comes with a new weapon would be sustained for an extended period.

"That all depends on how 'marginal' any inaccuracy is."

Marginal = Very small

FMolloy
28th October 2004, 09:08
It MIGHT be used a little more often, and in a war situation you'd like a totally reliable weapon.The Irish army are unlikely to pick a fight in the near future, and the use of the weapon would be for training purposes, and security, where it would be unlikely to be used. In these roles it would need to be reliable, but it wouldn't be in use constantly, for example, in a wartime scenario!

I'd like to think you need a totally reliable weapon at all times. While the DF is unlikely to pick a fight in the near future, it is likely to be using this pistol for a long time to come. The DF's current pistols have been in use for decades & they are likely to expect such longevity from it's replacement.



Why buy an expensive golf when all you need is a run-about to do your shopping in, twice a week?

What if you had to make that same, bi-weekly shopping run in the same car for 35 years? What would choose then? Every officer & senior NCO in the DF is expected to fire it at least once a year, that's a lot of useage regardless of operational tempo.



Marginal = Very small

Marginal by whose standards? Yours?

California Tanker
28th October 2004, 14:50
The difference in cost between the SIG and Beretta in the US M-9 competition was about 387.14 for the Beretta, and $388.34 for the SIG. (Including support/service and such like). Hardly a big difference.

NTM

Chief Bubblewrap
28th October 2004, 21:01
I think what you're trying to convey is the value of the pistol with respect to the length of time it will be in service, which is a good point. What I’m saying is, if they are properly maintained, which a lot of the BAPs were not, the longevity of a less expensive pistol would be extended and the D.F. could save some cash. Same goes for you Metro analogy.

“Marginal by whose standards? Yours?”
No, the dictionary’s.
http://www.advfn.com/money-words_term_5651_marginal.html

FMolloy
29th October 2004, 06:30
What I’m saying is, if they are properly maintained, which a lot of the BAPs were not, the longevity of a less expensive pistol would be extended and the D.F. could save some cash.

Firstly, how do you know a lot of BAP's were improperly cared for? Secondly, if a pistol is inherently unreliable then no level of end-user care can correct this. As an example, the Beretta M92 suffered from a number of slide failures. The end result is that Beretta had to produce a strengthened slide to correct this.

The DF are trying to modernise. They don't need to go back to the situation where penny-pinching is put ahead of their needs. With a mentality like yours you should look for a job in the Dept. of Finance, they think along the same lines as you.



No, the dictionary’s.

Ok, let me rephrase. Can you give us the levels of accuracy of the above pistols & tell us what differences you would call marginal.

Chief Bubblewrap
29th October 2004, 19:05
I had a lovely conversation with a CQ a couple of weeks ago, where he mentioned that the BAPs are crap for one main reason - they were improperly maintained from the start.

"The inherent reliability that comes with a new weapon would be sustained for an extended period."

If the inherent reliability is poor, logically the unit will be prone to failure, and such would be unacceptable - because it doesn't do the job. Service longevity of the pistol is a requirement.

My first post; "...but don't they all do the same job?"

To which you replied; "They do indeed do the same job, in the same way that all cars do the same thing, how well they do the job is another matter."

If a car has a faulty engine, then it's of little use. It doesn't do the job.

If a pistol is flawed then it shouldn't be considered. The pistols to be considered, I would determine would be of sufficient quality to last the test of time, and have similar accuracy capabilities, i.e. they do the same job equally. So why not just buy the cheapest and have some pocket change left over?

“With a mentality like yours you should look for a job in the Dept. of Finance, they think along the same lines as you.”

Logical lines?

"Ok, let me rephrase. Can you give us the levels of accuracy of the above pistols & tell us what differences you would call marginal."

Very small differences.

Tank
11th November 2004, 01:21
undefined
The German military is in the process of switching from 9mm to 4.6mm with the mp-7 and a new pistol.

The German Army is introducing the MP-7 in the 4.6mm calibre for the crews of softskinned vehicles only. All others will continue to use the H&K MP-5 in calibre 9mm. They got a new pistol (P-8) in 1999 and this will be the standard pistol for a good while. As they also have 2 other calibres (5.56 - G36 and 7.62 - MG 3) the logistics guys should have some fun..... :wink:

The P-8 is a slightly modified military version of the H&K USP. I've had a chance to use it and think it's good. Easy to use and reliable. It's being used by a lot of SWAT units around the world too. But then, when does the DF ever get anything German?

B Inman
11th November 2004, 05:05
undefined

But then, when does the DF ever get anything German?


HK33, HK33SG1, MP5, MAN Trucks and Karcher Field kitchens are some of the German manufactered material that has/is being used by the DF.

Goldie fish
12th November 2004, 16:30
The Army Bands and the Equestrian school have germans in their History...

Come-quickly
12th November 2004, 22:05
God I hope Gaddafi is taking the piss, either that or he works for the Department of Finance and Defence

Chief Bubblewrap
13th November 2004, 03:37
I am not a piss-taker.

I may be a sexist, a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, a piss-taker, but i am not a porn star!

FMolloy
13th November 2004, 22:04
Last night I was talking to an exer friend of mine who served in ordnance, he said that the notion that the BAPs were improrperly maintained from the start is news to him.

waterbaby
14th November 2004, 07:22
:rolleyes: I'm not up to date on pistols, But I've fired the bap and have been told that I had potential marksman on it. I am trying to find out if it is possible to get a pistol on civvie street as some target shooters have already recieved a licence for one. I have asked about Cpl's firing the bap in competition but was told it was only for senior NCO's & Officers. :frown:
I had the good fortune to be able to fire a 44 Magnum while on Hols this year, now that is some weapon! :biggrin:

Goldie fish
14th November 2004, 10:37
I fired the BAP in competition last year as a Corporal,I wasnt the only one. To my knowledge,anyone who is qualified to fire the BAP(ARPs etc) is eligible to fire in Competition.
Whoever told you has their facts seriously wrong. Could it be because you are in fact(gasp) a woman?

Smiler
14th November 2004, 20:07
Civvie licenses for pistols and rifles. All your questions answered here.........http://pie.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=466

Truck Driver
15th November 2004, 01:16
:...I have asked about Cpl's firing the bap in competition but was told it was only for senior NCO's & Officers....

Would say this is horse****. The Cav, for instance, are supposed to be
trained up on the BAP, as a car crewman(woman). Whether RDF
Cav troopers get BAP training in this scenario, I'm unsure.
My mob specifies Sgt upwards, as Sgt's may have to do BOS duties
on camp. Fair dinkum, to a point...

Goldie fish
16th November 2004, 10:54
Last night I was talking to an exer friend of mine who served in ordnance, he said that the notion that the BAPs were improrperly maintained from the start is news to him.

From what I can remember some years ago the British army suffered a number of Fatal and near fatal missfires with their BAPs(L something or other). These for the most part were caused by slide failure, in particular the failure of the slide to the rear of the ejection opening.

As a result of this, Our own ordnance people surveyed the Pistols in stores and discovered a large number when x rayed had the same hairline cracks found on UK weapons(Possibly caused by firing higher load Parabellum rounds than usual) as well as metal fatigue which was not unusual for any metal object which undergoes the stresses associated with the firing of any ammunition. A large quantity were removed as a result of these examinations.

The increased use of the Pistol since the withdrawal of the Gustav SMG has also diminished the available pistols,necessitating the replacment programme.

mutter nutter
23rd June 2005, 17:05
saw inthe indo Yesterday that the DF are replacing the Browning, so here's a poll to find out everyone's preference

yellowjacket
23rd June 2005, 17:30
Hasn't this been done before?

morpheus
23rd June 2005, 17:31
Finally, this could mean that the RDF should soon be issued with new dueling flintlock pistols .... ooh i cant wait!!!

Personally the SiG Sauer would be my choice, simply because it has proven itself with a lot of other forces, dont the ARW use a SiG too? their experience will surely be called upon in the choice making, then again, that WOULD be forward thinking of the DF.... :rolleyes:

yellowjacket
23rd June 2005, 17:36
http://irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?t=357&highlight=pistol

mutter nutter
23rd June 2005, 17:50
sorry YJ, I searched but all I got was an error message

Goldie fish
23rd June 2005, 19:12
If I recall the last time round the selection was made,but the government cancelled the process.
Anything will do as long as its 9mm and double action. Armourers around the country have begun condemning Baps all over the place. Replacements are well overdue. Some of those in stores have smoothe bore Barrels at this stage.

Goldie fish
23rd June 2005, 20:34
saw inthe indo Yesterday that the DF are replacing the Browning, so here's a poll to find out everyone's preference

Can anyone find and post this article?

yellowjacket
23rd June 2005, 20:55
Can anyone find and post this article?

Too much work, but the article was based on the press conference mentioned in the post below, and the pistols get a mention:

http://irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?t=6571

Goldie fish
23rd June 2005, 23:49
http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?p=86787#post86787

California Tanker
24th June 2005, 03:24
Talking with a Brit, they ran into an interesting case when the Iraqis wanted to trade their Glocks for BAPs. They figured that if the British Army were using BAPs, they must be better than the Glocks that they had been issued with...

The US Army is taking a serious look at going back to .45ACP, after tests with a few modern calibres. Any word on what the new NATO pistol cartridge is likely to be for the rest of Europe?

NTM

Goldie fish
25th June 2005, 22:40
What about the H&K pistols? P2000,P8(recently selected as the German Armed Forces pistol) or the USP?
http://www.heckler-koch.de/oldsite/html/english/behoerden/01_pistols/01_00_index.html

Goldie fish
8th July 2005, 17:49
Contracts expected to be placed by the end of this year.

http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?t=6661

BANDIT
11th July 2005, 08:32
Too MUCH TALK OVER Pistols. Any good double action will do. I carry a FEG in 9mm Makarov ( its basically a Walther PPK) while working in one country, some of my guys carry Makarovs ( excellent weapon , always fires but no fancy bits and pieces that seem to be the rage these days, One even carry a TT33 single action old but it works. For Home defence I have a model 36 Chiefs Special also easy for the wife to handle and in another countrey I carry a glock, why because I got a good deal --cheap. I have also over the years carried a Beretta, an Astra , and a BAP. Why do I prefer the FEG its light, ammo is very available and I dont fancy glocks , conservative on safeties etc.
For the Army: Gate keepers etc a good SW 357 revolver
Oil on the fire,

gunmoney
23rd July 2005, 14:26
How about this one? :biggrin:

ODIN
24th July 2005, 14:13
Go with the nokia on...dual functionality and all

FMolloy
24th July 2005, 14:28
It depends on what the signal & battery life is like...

Johnny2Stripes
24th July 2005, 22:22
You would look well walking around with a gun to your head and talking to "yourself"!!

CTU
25th July 2005, 15:47
Hands free kit?

mugs
25th July 2005, 15:50
Hands free kit?

yea, you could use it for drive bys and not get pulled over. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

GoneToTheCanner
27th July 2005, 00:08
Hi all
Don't let them find cracks and you can keep your beloved BAPs forever!! We NDT'd an 81mm mortar in the Don, once upon a time, and found lots of hairline cracks. That mortar and all of it's pals went to Irish Steel. By and by, I fired a 9mm Beretta and the 10mm/.40 version. The 9mm felt just right and the bigger one had too much recoil for comfort, although it made a bigger hole in the target.
regards
GttC

California Tanker
29th August 2005, 20:35
Not sure I like this. If you've got to go to a bigger round, how about a .40 or 357SIG? Special Forces and maybe infantry might like the bigger punch, but for my use, I'd rather have more smaller rounds to suppress while I run away.

NTM


Solicitation number : H92222-05-R-0017
Title : 10 -- Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System

http://www1.eps.gov/spg/ODA/USSOCOM.../SynopsisP.html

General Information

Document Type: Presolicitation Notice
Solicitation Number: H92222-05-R-0017
Posted Date: Aug 26, 2005
Original Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Current Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Original Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005
Current Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005
Classification Code: 10 -- Weapons
Naics Code: 332994 -- Small Arms Manufacturing

Contracting Office AddressOther Defense Agencies, U.S. Special Operations
Command, Headquarters Procurement Division, 7701 Tampa Point Blvd, MacDill
AFB, FL, 33621-5323

Description

The USSOCOM intends to issue a solicitation to obtain commercially available
non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45
(ACP). The Program will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP
requirement.
The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled
"Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance
of the solicitation.
Two configurations of the pistol will be required.
One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration
will have an external safety.
The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary
equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor
Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound
suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning
Kit; and Operator's Manual.
The contract type will be an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ)
issuing Firm-Fixed Price (FFP) delivery orders. The contract period of
performance shall be Five (5)years with an option to extend for an
additional Five (5) years.
The Minimum Quantity is 24 each Engineering Test Units (ETU's), 12 each with
external manual safety and 12 each without external manual safety. The
estimated Maximum quantities are: 45,000 no external safety JCP
configuration and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration;
649,000 Holsters; 96,050 Standard Capacity Magazines; 192,099 High Capacity
Magazines; 667,000 Magazine Holders; 132,037 Suppressor attachment kits;
Provisioning Item Order, Technical Data Package and associated Data.
Transportation shall be F.O.B. Destination.
The solicitation will require, free of charge to the government, delivery of
24 each product samples along with a concise written proposal all due on the
closing date stated in the solicitation. The 24-each product sample from the
successful offeror may be accepted as the Minimum Quantity. Any subsequent
delivery orders for JCP's will order between 50 each and 200,000 each with a
maximum monthly delivery rate of 5,000 each.
Any subsequent orders for the ancillary items will require delivery to
commence within 60 days after receipt of order. The product samples and
written proposal will be evaluated on a best value basis and the Government
will reserve the right to award to other than the lowest priced offeror and
other than the highest technically rated offeror.
Product samples from unsuccessful offerors will be returned to the offerors
upon request and at the offeror's expense. The Government cannot guarantee
the condition of the product samples after testing.
All responsible sources may submit a proposal, which shall be considered by
the agency.
The Government intend to issue a draft solicitation. Notifications,
Solicitation, and other communication will be posted via FEDBIZOPS.
Questions may be emailed to Contract Specialist, Mr. Pfender at
john.pfender@navy.mil.

They combined the Future Handgun Sytem and SOF Combat Pistol programs for this.

JAG
29th August 2005, 21:39
Not sure I like this. If you've got to go to a bigger round, how about a .40 or 357SIG? Special Forces and maybe infantry might like the bigger punch, but for my use, I'd rather have more smaller rounds to suppress while I run away.

What, you mean after your tank sinks in the desert? :biggrin:

The Shadow
30th August 2005, 13:34
My money is on the Glock.

FMolloy
30th August 2005, 18:05
I am led to believe, that while not the front runner, the replacement for the BAP, will be .... the BAP - the new version obviously. It works out much cheaper than a SIG or a Glock apparently.

Made by FN or CZ?

yellowjacket
30th August 2005, 18:10
It'll be strange if essentially the same competition is won by a different pistol the second time round (Sig226 won last time), unless priorities have changed, i.e. money - the Sig was probably the most expensive choice.

padmundo
15th September 2005, 01:55
I heard the CZ75 is the replacement. Not a bad gun either, though that depends on the version for some people. Some versions have an ambidexterous safety and others not.

Goldie fish
18th September 2005, 16:26
Gun firms shoot it out to win contract
Irish Independent
18/09/2005
DON LAVERY

A DOZEN of the world's top gun manufacturers are to shoot it out to win a competition to supply the Defence Forces with a new pistol.

At stake is an order for 1,400 new 9mm pistols worth over €1m.

They are to replace the FN automatic pistol, which has been in service for more then 40 years.

All the manufacturers have to supply six pistols for testing and, after a shortlist of five manufacturers is drawn up, the winner will be selected after more testing.

Front runners include the Italian Beretta 92F which has been adopted by the US army, the Austrian Glock 17, the German USP and the Swiss Sig P226 which is already in use by the elite Irish Army Rangers.

Defence Minister Willie O'Dea has said a contract will be in place by the end of the year for the new pistols.

Also under test are lighter body armour and helmets as the Army continues to modernise equipment for its UN and EU roles.

A new fleet of 4x4 vehicles, heavy trucks and 15 more Mowag armoured personnel carriers are also being procured.
Copied from News

GoneToTheCanner
24th September 2005, 21:13
Hi all
What do yiz think of the notion that only a few people should carry pistols out of the greater mass of troops, ie; vehicle personnel, officers, etc.? Personally, I'd train every body on the pistol and treat it as the basic firearm, rather than the rifle and I'd issue every person on overseas duty with a pistol as a minimum armament. I remember from several wartime(WW2) histories that many soldiers regarded the possession of a good pistol as essential backup to their main rifle/smg/lmg.
regards
GttC

Docman
24th September 2005, 22:55
Hi all
What do yiz think of the notion that only a few people should carry pistols out of the greater mass of troops,

That means carrying around another weapon with ammo of a different calibre. More weight etc. However if the body is willing...

Goldie fish
25th September 2005, 02:50
I am surprised its not already the case. A rifle may provide a good visible deterrent, but in the peace enforcement situation that the Irish Forces are more used to dealing with, perhaps a pistol is more suitable? For example, is it easier to negotiate a dispute without either disputing party having to look down the muzzle of the abritrators personal weapon?
Also what is the difference in practical terms replacing an ammo pouch and 4 magazines for the Steyr with a pistol holster and its associated weapon and ammo? It really comes down to the risk.

In practice worldwide, the usual combination is for the User to carry an smg with a pistol of similar calibre. As we move towards a more mobile, mechanised force(kicking and screaming) expect to see more and more troops on the ground that have to carry pistols, due to their appointment.

DeV
25th September 2005, 11:21
Lets see ... Steyr with an extra 4 magazines (120 rounds) or a pistol with (around 20/30 rounds). Think I'd go for just carrying the Steyr.

When a friend of mine did his basic military training as part of his AC apprenticeship, he fired the Steyr, GPMG, Grenade and BAP.

Goldie fish
25th September 2005, 11:39
Right dev, Look at it another way, standard CEFO only has one magazine pouch,with 4 magazines.(checkthe manual). Why not swap the side, leave the Utility pouch where its supposed to be, and put a pistol holster on the left? Now instead of 120 rounds 5.56 only, you have 120 rounds 5.56, and a secondary weapon with 20/30 rounds.

apod
25th September 2005, 12:31
The only people who wear the cefo as laid ot in the manual are rear echelon troops or auld sweats.Every recriut platoon /cadet course/pots course etc wear two ammo pouches and nearly everybody in the pdf wear twoo extra utiity pouches at the rear instead of the respirator haversack. :smile:

FMolloy
25th September 2005, 15:40
A lot of US forces in Iraq carry a pistol in a drop-leg holster on the thigh or in a shoulder holster. A lot also use drop-leg ammo or dump pouches on the other thigh.

CTU
25th September 2005, 15:57
Is there not also an internal pistol holster/pocket on some Assault Vests?

FMolloy
25th September 2005, 16:02
The Arktis vests have a cross-draw holster in the left-hand map pocket. Others, like ones made by Eagle Industries in the states have external cross-draw holsters.

Goldie fish
25th September 2005, 16:03
The only people who wear the cefo as laid ot in the manual are rear echelon troops or auld sweats.Every recriut platoon /cadet course/pots course etc wear two ammo pouches and nearly everybody in the pdf wear twoo extra utiity pouches at the rear instead of the respirator haversack. :smile:

Philistine!

Take it to the "PLCE" thread.

GoneToTheCanner
25th September 2005, 21:04
Hi Dev
Interesting line you have there about an AC apprentice firing the BAP and throwing the grenade. We fired the FN and GPMG and a few threw the old Arges 69 grenade. When the Quarter was asked why only a few were going to throw, his reply was a classic:" there's only a bleedin' few of them left and,anyway, only REAL soldiers deserve to throw grenades,not yew-iz!". So we got to throw hollowed-out Mills bombs instead. Incidentally, one Apprentice, poised for the throw in the concrete trench, pulled the pin and promptly dropped the live grenade. The late Sgt. Joey Byrne, standing alongside the errant thrower, was seen to carry out a vertical launch out of the trench,like a space rocket and throw himself flat. The apprentice scrambled out and dived away as the bomb went off. After the smoke had cleared, Joey launched into an Alex Ferguson-style "hairdryer" on the luckless apprento, much to everyone else's delight. So there's good reason to keep AC people away from REAL weapons!! Incidentally, I got to fire the BAP and Gustav in the FCA as they had a practise in our unit of allowing the older three-stars to fire off the last of the 9mm rounds after the usual suspects had fired their course. :cool:
regards
GttC

greyfox
25th September 2005, 22:43
is the Cz 75 not an old design though a fine pistol i belive that they offer a more moderen synthetic pistol . which looks a bit like a sig

Old Redeye
26th September 2005, 16:34
The Berretta is okay, but not great by any means from my experience. Large, heavy and not anywhere bear as capable and reliable as an H&K in .45 cal - my preference. But, since you've already bought SIG's, I recommend sticking with them as a capable weapon, better than the Berretta, though not as good as the H&K.

Lt Col McKnight
27th September 2005, 03:11
My Personal Choice if given it would be for the S and W Military and Police. It looks rather tasty, dunno how practical, much akin to the Aug A3, mmm tasty.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg165-e.htm

http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/index.php?id=657

Goldie fish
8th December 2005, 03:10
Having spoken to 2 sources in the last 48 hours, I am confused. One reliable source tells me that the SIG P226 has been selected(as demonstrated recently by the Minister),While another, heard from a Dealer in NI that the Irish DF have just placed an order for 4000 Walther P99.

I am thinking that the Walther may refer to the new Garda pistol, anyone care to enlighten?

Dagon
8th December 2005, 10:34
Is the Walther really a pistol designed with the military in mind? I'd say the sig would be more likely, but who knows.

greyfox
11th December 2005, 20:44
Is the Walther really a pistol designed with the military in mind? I'd say the sig would be more likely, but who knows.
yes the p99 is an evolution of their p88 which was tested by some armys in the 80s but failed to attract any orders the p99 is lighter and cheaper . it featuers a polymer slide which can be coloured green for military use james bond now sports the p99 .
4000 is a large number for a small army

The real Jack
27th December 2005, 23:05
What about the M9's in the cadet school???

ackack
30th December 2005, 15:33
Having spoken to 2 sources in the last 48 hours, I am confused. One reliable source tells me that the SIG P226 has been selected(as demonstrated recently by the Minister),While another, heard from a Dealer in NI that the Irish DF have just placed an order for 4000 Walther P99.

I am thinking that the Walther may refer to the new Garda pistol, anyone care to enlighten?


There was an add in the un cosantor for Walther in NI, and usually they only promote military products used by the military.....sooooooooooooooooooooooooo......2+2=2 2 (who am i kidding i'm just guessing.)

Big Al
30th December 2005, 18:52
I would like to point out the thread title

if it ain't about new pistols take it to a different thread or PM's

Thanking you for your co-operation....

ldman60119
30th December 2005, 19:07
How about this for a new pistol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Eagle

I like the Mark VII .50 cal. I had the MK I .357. Great pistol but traded it in.

I know the Desert Eagle is a little much, but it is a pretty cool looking pistol. Look at the size of its bullet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_Action_Express


Or how about the FN P90 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90 I know its a submachine. It a little more than twice the length of a Beretta 92, and it is used by the Beligum Motorcycle Police. They usually wear it strapped across there backs.

It could be used by Support troops or MPs who have strapped across there chests, or strapped to thier packs. It would give a lot more firepower than you standard pistol.

Of course the most practical would be the Beretta. Its ammo is very widely used by many military and police forces around the world. The cost for pistol and ammo should be a lot less than your more exotic pistols. I am not a fan of it after using it overseas, but it is the standard issue of the US military and most American police forces/FBI/CIA/Customs/Postal/IRS etc etc etc.

ldman60119
30th December 2005, 21:10
11

Eddie Dillon
30th December 2005, 21:13
What about the M9's in the cadet school???

Which M9's would these be and why would they have them?

The real Jack
31st December 2005, 21:42
The Cadets train on the M9

Goldie fish
31st December 2005, 21:54
WHat M9s? Why do the cadets train on a motorway?

Muzzle
1st January 2006, 18:37
Beretta M9's?

mutter nutter
1st January 2006, 20:11
isn't the designation "M9" a purely US military one? :confused:

Gasplug
1st January 2006, 21:08
why yes it would be.

apod
20th January 2006, 20:56
Ok it's been awhile anyone know has thre been any progress on the pistol tender??

Dagon
23rd January 2006, 11:10
The pistol has been chosen as far as I know. Not sure which one but the rumour mill says the sig. Apparently there was a article in the examiner saying the same but I never saw it.

The_Equalizer
23rd January 2006, 16:04
With regard to the 3 P's, the Glock 17 should win.

The Sig however seems to be tried and tested and if the price is right it's going to be the one.

ODIN
23rd January 2006, 16:21
There may be a shock in store here....but we will find out soon enough no matter what

happenin
24th January 2006, 22:41
Friend of mine just got his brand new sig. I must see what he thinks. Might be biased though

FMolloy
25th January 2006, 00:18
I've heard from someone in industry that it's down to Glock, FN, HK & Walther.

Goldie fish
10th February 2006, 00:28
Surely a decision has been made now?

Rooster
12th February 2006, 23:27
Gotta be the SIG!

FMolloy
12th February 2006, 23:36
I was told that SIG were ruled out early on in the competition on cost grounds.

yellowjacket
12th February 2006, 23:45
Contrary to earlier reports, I'm led to believe a decision is some way off.

California Tanker
13th February 2006, 01:28
Friend of mine just got his brand new sig. I must see what he thinks. Might be biased though

I don't know anyone who thinks that SIGs are not top-rate combat pistols. (As opposed to competition-grade pistols such as Kimber, which are better, but stupidly expensive).

The Classic range is the one in common service in various militaries, with a steel frame and slide. They are, however, also a fair bit more expensive than most of their competitors, such as Glock.

To counter that, they also produce the SIGPro series (One example of which I am the proud owner of). These have polymer frames, and as such are lighter and less expensive. On the downside, none of the polymer SIGs are full-sized pistols, my P2340 has about a 4" barrel, for example.

NTM

The Blue Max
13th February 2006, 03:46
Rumour I heard last time i was in the Curragh that it was definitly going to be the Glock17 but like most things it probly better to wait and hear for definite instead of just speculating.

Goldie fish
17th March 2006, 00:51
Still no new pistol?
All Army's around the corner, and less pistols available...

B Inman
17th March 2006, 01:25
Has a decision been for the repalcement for the BAP made ?

If it has, is the finance available?

Priorities, for the DF budget is a replacement pistol for general service a priority?

Goldie fish
17th March 2006, 01:28
It should be as a matter of personal safety.

Muzzle
17th March 2006, 10:16
I heard Glock was being ruled out recently...

Goldie fish
17th March 2006, 21:54
I think the absence of a physical safety catch is offputting to some(though the Tasman Police got glock to add one for them). Perhaps this is the reason? Otherwise its cheap price makes it appealing.

FMolloy
18th March 2006, 15:20
I heard Glock was being ruled out recently...

I heard this too.

California Tanker
18th March 2006, 20:26
Wonder if the absence of a hammer might have something to do with it as well. Can't have those new-fangled internal strikers, you know.

For anyone not paying attention, the US has decided to go back to a .45ACP. I'm not too thrilled by it, and I'm not sure exactly how they decided to go back to that calibre. My guess is it's the old-timers stuck in their ways.

NTM

Muzzle
18th March 2006, 20:42
Its the lack of an applied safety AFAIK. Doubt they give a shit about the hammer.

ELVIS
18th March 2006, 20:53
Pretty sure its a new BAP that'll be used

California Tanker
19th March 2006, 03:59
There's no safety on your common or garden SIG Sauer either, mind.

NTM

Bosco
19th March 2006, 04:40
Why do none of these weapons have safety's? Just wondering?

Goldie fish
19th March 2006, 05:58
Cos you don't need one? Modern double action pistols only go off when you make a determined effort to squeeze the trigger. At other times, there is no way the hammer(if one exists)can strike the firing pin.
Indeed the safety on the BAP is rarely used, and to be honest I wouldnt have much faith in it. It is usually only used when the pistol is charged, ready to fire, a situation which it is rarely kept in for prolongued periods.

MOB87
26th April 2006, 13:34
Pretty sure its a new BAP that'll be used
Wasn't it a SIG P226 that the clown (Willie O'Dea) pointed at a photographer at his press confrence where he was announcing a new pistol?

Muzzle
26th April 2006, 13:38
Wasn't it a SIG P226 that the clown (Willie O'Dea) pointed at a photographer at his press confrence where he was announcing a new pistol?

That was taken at demo by the ARW to celebrate tyheir anniversairy, and the photographer insisted he point the gun at them.

ODIN
26th April 2006, 13:44
From what I have heard the Sig is looking like the favourate, but some people don't like the sights on it, saying that has to be adjusted to the person firing which can take a long time to do

happenin
26th April 2006, 13:46
I've had my hands on both a beretta 92 and a SIG P226 recently. Sig is a lot heavier and doesnt jump as much as the beretta. I hope they get the beretta just so i can show ppl how to strip it with one hand while someone is pointing it. but i think the SIG is the overall winner on performance alone. Pitty its so pricey as i think that is its only ting that will put the df off buying them.

ODIN
26th April 2006, 13:50
I think the DF are looking for quality and longgevity this time around, price won't be a huge issue in the selection

ODIN
26th April 2006, 13:55
I cannot quote my source, but that is what he told me

FMolloy
26th April 2006, 14:01
According to two seperate but well-informed sources of mine, the SIG has been already eliminated on cost grounds. The same thing happened with the Gardai - SIG had already supplied pistols to specialist units but failed to get the big contract.

hptmurphy
26th April 2006, 14:13
Buy a Mowag get a sig free?

ODIN
26th April 2006, 14:17
Could try the butter for guns scam again, worked a treat the last time around :biggrin:

Liachta Cultaca
26th April 2006, 14:32
Anyone know what the hold up is with his tender. It seems to be going on ridicously long now.

Did I not read that the pistol that wins the competition has to be supplied by the end of the year??

FMolloy
26th April 2006, 14:50
Anyone know what the hold up is with his tender. It seems to be going on ridicously long now.

As I understand it, the field has been whittled down to three or four contenders - the Walther P99, a Glock (not sure of the model) and an FN model (either the BDA9/O or the P-9M, can't remember which). There might be a CZ model still in the running, but I can't be sure.


Did I not read that the pistol that wins the competition has to be supplied by the end of the year??

That shouldn't be a problem for any of the previously mentioned companies.

X-RayOne
26th April 2006, 15:35
" i think the DF are looking for quality and longevity this time around"

jesus, does the BAP not count as having had a long service life!

makes you wonder how long the new pistol will be in service?!!

FMolloy
26th April 2006, 15:43
makes you wonder how long the new pistol will be in service?!!

Until these start turning up:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007ZHJIO.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

ODIN
26th April 2006, 15:49
Or these...
http://www.xscapesprops.com/star%20trek%20props/fc%20phaser%20signature%20edition%20MR-ST-102S.jpg

And these to eventually replace the Steyr
http://www.costumesandprops.com/graphics/NakadaRifle430x227.jpg

Now to stop before I get my post deleted!!!:biggrin:

trellheim
26th April 2006, 15:52
or these
http://www.legendaryguns.com/_borders/Desert-Eagle1.jpg
This is a real pistol

Muzzle
26th April 2006, 16:02
Thought the DE was well established as utterly impractical for anything other then waltering around a range.

ODIN
26th April 2006, 16:08
The ones I posted mite be real....in about 300 yrs or so that is!!!

Dagon
26th April 2006, 16:45
Thought the DE was well as utterly impractical for anything other then waltering around a range.

It is, but just think of the envious eyes of your mates with one of those on dragging down a holster...

happenin
26th April 2006, 17:04
Desert Eagle seems a bit like overkill you could hunt deer with the ****ing thing. Stop waltering.

trellheim
26th April 2006, 17:09
No. :) Come on it's the classic walter thread, FFS Pistols ? And just imagine trying to close the mess with one of those if you are BOS or OO

MOB87
26th April 2006, 17:32
Isn't the .50 DE heavier than the styer (3.64 kg when empty thanks to Wikipedia)

mutter nutter
26th April 2006, 17:46
Isn't the .50 DE heavier than the styer (3.64 kg when empty thanks to Wikipedia)

wikipedia can be useless sometimes, the Guns.ru website,which much better, say's a DE empty is about 1.7kgs

Goldie fish
26th April 2006, 18:48
Less of the waltering please.
If you use the pistol on duty, or have something constructive to add then feel free to contribute.
That rules out the majority of the previous posts.

yellowjacket
14th June 2006, 12:52
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg46-e.htm <- Might be worthy of notice.

In other news, it appears the DoD missed out on an economical choice for the replacement:

http://ueba.net/hosted_pages/Mass-Destruction-of-Weapons-20060608

ODIN
14th June 2006, 13:35
Told you it was a SIG on page six of this

FMolloy
14th June 2006, 13:59
HK got it.

WES
14th June 2006, 14:09
HK got it.

The lowest bidder got it

Muzzle
14th June 2006, 14:34
I have heard that some class of a Glock USP has been chosen, anyone else hear similar?

The man did say Glock USP, but H&K make the USP family, so who knows!

Jaysus who ever that is stop listening to them. Glock USP!!??

Iv been hearing H&K USP for a month or two and that there are units with armourers ATM. Its at an in between price point between the Glock and the Sig, Has an applied safety and is a decent pistol all round.

I have a USP so suits me :wink:

mutter nutter
14th June 2006, 14:37
The lowest bidder got it
atleast it's a quality weapon, who know's what sort, the more "budget concious" in the DOD might have wanted, they could have ended up with an airsoft version made in Vietnam:biggrin:

FMolloy
14th June 2006, 14:39
The lowest bidder got it

Nope, there were lower bids than HK's.

Kieran
14th June 2006, 15:34
http://ueba.net/hosted_pages/Mass-Destruction-of-Weapons-20060608[/url]
Christ there would have been eneough there for every member of the DF to have one. Even us baggers.

WES
14th June 2006, 15:50
Nope, there were lower bids than HK's.

I was only stating one of Murphy's Laws of combat operations and of course being cynical at the same time. In reality I couldn't care less who got it as I won't ever be firing it.:biggrin:

ODIN
14th June 2006, 16:05
So when is it being signed? Or has it already happened??

hptmurphy
14th June 2006, 17:34
What a waste of weaponary..and both the Marakov and Tokarev were fine weapons in their day. What was the story behind the destruction?

mutter nutter
14th June 2006, 17:41
What a waste of weaponary..and both the Marakov and Tokarev were fine weapons in their day. What was the story behind the destruction?

this was posted by a guy from Estonia on milphoto's about the reson..


Estonian defence forces destroyed 6000 decommissioned Makarov, TT and Colt pistols, most of them completely unsused.
The destruction of the guns was part of a deal with Heckler & Koch, to be able to buy new H&K pistols with remarkably cheaper price.



I don't get why HK would care enough for them to destroy them, unless it was so they wouldn't be sold on:confused:



sorry about the off topic

Goldie fish
18th June 2006, 23:52
I'll be happy if they get me a new pistol, never mind a new rifle. I already have an old rifle. I cannot say the same about an old pistol.
Priorities etc.

Muzzle
19th June 2006, 00:18
RDF wont see the USP for a long time I reckon.

Goldie fish
19th June 2006, 00:24
Who said anything about USP?

Muzzle
19th June 2006, 00:36
Well refering to any of the armys BAPs as new at this stage is a stretch. Im sure most RDF will be happy to get any pistol that not likely to blow up in thei hands.

Goldie fish
19th June 2006, 00:54
Um....I never said the BAP was a new pistol. I want a new pistol. I dont even have an old pistol.Most of the Baps in service should have been binned long ago. Smooth Bore is the norm in most of them.
I am talking about the much delayed pistol replacement.

ackack
19th June 2006, 09:10
So you are talking about the USP then, seeing as that is the rumoured replacement for the bap.

womble
19th June 2006, 10:45
So you are talking about the USP then, seeing as that is the rumoured replacement for the bap.

In the same way that the HK 416 is the rumoured replacement for the Steyr?

Muzzle
19th June 2006, 11:01
In the same way that the HK 416 is the rumoured replacement for the Steyr?

Well we know for def the pistol is being replaced and that the USP is most likely the replacement.

The rifle is all talk till a tender goes out.

FMolloy
19th June 2006, 11:06
Without trying to sound dramatic, my sources (which have so far never been wrong) say HK definitely got the pistol contract.

Craghopper
19th June 2006, 11:07
sorry to disapoint you lads but its not gonna happen..WE are getting a new Pistol buts thats about it..We have no reason to change the steyr,,as it is a very reliable platform...

I dont know where this information came from,but yee may forget it.

Craghopper
19th June 2006, 11:08
Without trying to sound dramatic, my sources (which have so far never been wrong) say HK definitely got the pistol contract.

thats not what I have been told Buddy, and I heard it from and Ordance officer.

FMolloy
19th June 2006, 11:15
sorry to disapoint you lads but its not gonna happen..WE are getting a new Pistol buts thats about it..We have no reason to change the one we have,as it is a very reliable platform...

I dont know where this information came from,but yee may forget it.

Who's 'we'?

I get my information from both suppliers and people involved on the state's side. So far they've been right about (amongst other things) the new helmets, the new body armour and the new breaching kits for the COE, I've no reason to doubt them.

Craghopper
19th June 2006, 11:29
Who's 'we'?

I get my information from both suppliers and people involved on the procurement side. So far they've been right about (amongst other things) the helmets, the new body armour and the new breaching kits for the COE, I've no reason to doubt them.


"WE" as in the DF that I have served in for the Last 13 years of my life.The Ordance Officer was on the board for the pistol.

Craghopper
19th June 2006, 11:36
You're not making sense there ted. In one sentance, you are saying that we are getting a new pistol, and then in the next sentance you say that we have no reason to change the ones we have.


I was talkin about the Steyr,were not getting a new Rifle..But We are getting a new Pistol!

FMolloy
19th June 2006, 11:38
"WE" as in the DF that I have served in for the Last 13 years of my life.

Calm down, I was only asking a question. Your post prior to that confused me when it said that 'we are getting a new pistol' but then said 'we have no reason to change the one we had'. The two statements seemed contradictory to me & I was looking for clarification.


The LT COL was on the board for the pistol.Im only saying what he told me..

I'm not saying you're wrong or not telling the truth, I'm just letting you know where I'm getting my info from. If you're right, you're right, I'm not really bothered either way.

Craghopper
19th June 2006, 11:41
Calm down, I was only asking a question. Your post prior to that confused me when it said that 'we are getting a new pistol' but then said 'we have no reason to change the one we had'. The two statements seemed contradictory to me & I was looking for clarification.



I'm not saying you're wrong or not telling the truth, I'm just letting you know where I'm getting my info from. If you're right, you're right, I'm not really bothered either way.


Ok..sorry for the Confussion there..people are running away with them selves here,an earilier post mentioned a hk 416.,in my post I said we are not going to change the Steyr,there is no need to...AFAIK the USP was not even considered..can't see us change from 9mm to a .45 either..

yellowjacket
19th June 2006, 12:05
I'm more confused now than before...

This is a thread about the pistol replacement, so where did the very speculative possible future rifle bit come into it?

Turkey
19th June 2006, 12:10
Just a point to consider, it would be foolish of the Army not to keep an eye on new weapon developments , in case there was ever a suitation where the supply of the present weapon or it's spares got into trouble, so it is possable that non-issue equipment comes into the country and 'suffers' testing on a, more or less, continual basis.
Just my 10cents[inflation] worth.

Craghopper
19th June 2006, 12:18
Just a point to consider, it would be foolish of the Army not to keep an eye on new weapon developments , in case there was ever a suitation wher the supply of the present weapon or it's spares, so it is possable that non-issue equipment comes into the country and 'suffers' testing on a, more or less, continual basis.
Just my 10cents[inflation] worth.

there is a unit in the Df that already does that buddy..but there is also two or more countries that make the steyr and alot more who use it..so I can't see a problem in supplying the Df with new steyr's when the need arrises..

If Line units were to get a new platform it would be the A2 version of what we have..IMO

Muzzle
19th June 2006, 12:50
I'm more confused now than before...

This is a thread about the pistol replacement, so where did the very speculative possible future rifle bit come into it?

Some of the posts were moved from the rifle rumor thread

DeV
20th June 2006, 18:25
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=JUS20060608.xml&Ex=All


A tender competition was initiated in 2005 to replace the existing FN 9 mm Browning automatic pistol within the Defence Forces. The requirement is for up to 1,400 new pistols. It is likely that a contract for the acquisition of the pistols will be placed in the near future and that they will be delivered by the end of this year.

Goldie fish
20th June 2006, 18:57
Not before time.

Tank
21st June 2006, 09:38
If the new pistol is from H&K, would it definitelty be a USP? Why not a P8, designed for the military anyway? I note we never had a H&K option in the poll either....

Muzzle
21st June 2006, 09:53
P8 and the USP are pretty much one and the same. German Defence Forces requested a few changes to do with the safety catch but thats about it.

USP:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/HK_USP_9mm.jpg

P8:
http://forum-waffen.de/wbb2/attachment.php?attachmentid=155&sid=bdf02c616c542d4e996f0390b7e55dbf

Tank
21st June 2006, 13:48
Sorry, that was unclear from my last post. I meant that I assume we would be getting the P8 version rather than the "civilian" USP version if we were going with a H&K.

Muzzle
21st June 2006, 13:58
As I said there the same gun bar the modifications to the safety so it makes little differnace. I wouldn't assume anything at this point. The safety on the "civvie" version is fine, its easy to apply and take off. Neither the USP9 or the P8 is any more "military" or "civilian" then the other.

Goldie fish
25th June 2006, 14:44
Without trying to sound dramatic, my sources (which have so far never been wrong) say HK definitely got the pistol contract.

were these the same sources who gave you this :biggrin:



As I understand it, the field has been whittled down to three or four contenders - the Walther P99, a Glock (not sure of the model) and an FN model (either the BDA9/O or the P-9M, can't remember which). There might be a CZ model still in the running, but I can't be sure.
.

spike
25th June 2006, 23:59
There's no sign of a new pistol yet, or even rumour of one, so much for the end of the year. Believe it when I have one in my grubby little mit..

Saracen
7th August 2006, 03:28
Any news on the handgun contract? I seem to remember the DOD signing an MOI with Glock for €10million about two years ago and then being put on the back burner. Recently someone told me Procurement were looking at Sig Sauer, any info? :confused:

Dagon
2nd September 2006, 13:39
Cool. Good choice. I thought the sig was going to get it.

Goldie fish
2nd September 2006, 14:21
Can they hand all the BAPs in to the firearms amnesty now? In case they fall in to the wrong hands, or worse, the RDF stores. We don't want any more antiques.

Barry
2nd September 2006, 15:15
I assume, Goldie, that we'll be getting the 9mm version, rather than the .45 version :tongue:

FMolloy
2nd September 2006, 15:21
I was right so.

Goldie fish
2nd September 2006, 15:59
I assume, Goldie, that we'll be getting the 9mm version, rather than the .45 version :tongue:

Find me a photo of the 9mm version and I'll stick it in.

I was right so.


When you keep changing your answer, eventually you'll get the right one.

Vice Admiral
2nd September 2006, 17:19
Anyone which variant, wikipedia has 10 types of HK USP's detailed. In particular are we getting the SA/DA or DA only type. Wouldn't want to have to group with a DA model......

Goldie fish
2nd September 2006, 17:35
The first shot with a DA is the heaviest Pull. The rest are no different to an SA.

driver2
3rd September 2006, 00:02
Heckler Koch USP - UNIVERSAL SELF-LOADING PISTOL

The HK USP is the first HK pistol designed especially for American shooters. Features favored by U.S. law enforcement and military users provided the design criteria for the USP. The controls are uniquely American, influenced by such famous designs as the Government Model 1911 pistol.

All USPs use a fiber-reinforced polymer frame stiffened by stainless steel inserts at areas subject to stress and friction. HK pioneered this use of polymer materials in the production of handguns more than 30 years ago with the development of the VP70Z and P9S pistols.
The control lever, a combination safety and decocking lever, is frame mounted and quickly accessible, unlike the slide-mounted safeties common on many semi-automatic pistols.

Using a modified Browning-type action with a special patented recoil reduction system, the USP recoil reduction system reduces recoil effects on pistol components and also lowers the recoil forces felt by the shooter. This same recoil reduction system has been tested and proven in the HK Mark 23 pistol developed for the U.S. Special Operations Command. The USP recoil reduction system is insensitive to ammunition types and requires no special adjustment or maintenance. It functions effectively in all USP models.

The modular design of the USP's internal components allows the control lever function to be switched from the left to the right side of the pistol for left-handed shooters. The USP can also be converted from one type of trigger firing mode to another. This includes combination double-action and single-action (DA/SA) modes and double action only (DAO) modes.

The USP is available in nine trigger/firing mode configurations and three calibers: 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.

driver2
3rd September 2006, 00:15
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hk_usp_cut.jpg
http://www.ocshooters.com/Hand/img/uspdtal.jpg
Cutaway of the HK USP

http://www.hkpro.com/usp9.jpg
Actual Picture of a 9mm version

The USP barrels are a polygonal profile to further increase muzzle velocity and barrel life. During testing, a bullet was deliberately lodged in a USP barrel. Another cartridge was then fired into the obstructing bullet. The second bullet cleared the barrel, resulting in a barely noticeable bulge. The pistol was then fired for accuracy and the resulting group measured less than 4 inches at 25 meters.

Temperature testing required the USP be frozen to -42 °C and fired, frozen again, and then be heated up to 67 °C and fired. These temperature tests were continually repeated with no adverse effects on the USP.

The gun was also subjected to NATO MIL-SPEC mud and rain tests, which were passed without difficulty. Water immersion and salt spray also presented no problems. German Navy combat divers have used the USP for two years without any signs of corrosion.

Safety testing exceeded the ANSI/SAAMI requirements adopted in May 1990. These included dropping a USP with a primed cartridge and decocked hammer on a variety of hard surfaces without discharging. The USP surpassed these commercial requirements, as well as German Army and police tests, including repeated drop tests from six feet (1.8 m), hammer first, onto a steel backed concrete slab. Proof round firing resulted in no cracks, deformations, or increase in head space. Attempts to fire the USP pistol with an unlocked breech proved unsuccessful.

Testing with a variety of ammunition proved the USP meets these high standards. During the USP testing phase, it was shown the recoil-reduction system reduces the force on the USP grip to approximately 300 newtons (67 pounds-force). Peak force shock on competing .40 caliber polymer and metal framed pistols was around 5,000 newtons (1,100 pounds-force). The primary benefit of low peak shock is a decrease in wear and tear on pistol components, a great concern with the +P cartridge in 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. Reduction of peak shock forces also contributes to softer recoil for the shooter, although these "felt recoil" values are much more subjective.

Vice Admiral
3rd September 2006, 09:59
The first shot with a DA is the heaviest Pull. The rest are no different to an SA.

Not with a DA only model, my questions still stands.

Goldie fish
3rd September 2006, 11:52
Lets hope they have not got a DAO then.

Double Action (DA) trigger pull ca. 51 N

Single Action (SA) trigger pull ca. 20 N

Its like the old 303, with the two trigger pressures. You only take aim in the second pressure. With a DAO, you don't take final aim until your hammer has cocked.


http://www.hkdefense.us/manuals/usp_man.pdf

Victor
3rd September 2006, 15:56
Can they hand all the BAPs in to the firearms amnesty now? In case they fall in to the wrong hands, or worse, the RDF stores. We don't want any more antiques.Under the amnesty they threaten to keep unique or antique weapons ... :eek:

Craghopper
3rd September 2006, 16:50
I was right so.

Fair play..Im man enough to say I was wrong..But My source informed me it was the 92f that was being bought..unless they changed their minds..anyway..I'l never doubt you again.:wink:

FMolloy
4th September 2006, 00:12
When you keep changing your answer, eventually you'll get the right one.

In fairness, I was told it was down to three or four types & I did say I wasn't sure about one of them. The only time I posted after that was when I was told for certain that HK got it, so it wasn't like I was continously changing my answer.


I'l never doubt you again.

Finally, someone gets it :biggrin:

hptmurphy
10th September 2006, 21:52
tears for the BAP...in what ever format..has been around for so long....good all round military weapon...used by the best...against the best...an copied by the best for the best reasons..sob sob....large calibre revolvers and the browning..mens guns....

Goldie fish
11th September 2006, 06:47
If only they weren't all cracking in two along the top of the slide.

In fairness the USP design has all the best features of the BAP,and more.

happenin
23rd September 2006, 20:18
Any idea of the timescale for the issue of the weapons. When are they taking delivery. Etc. Will we be stuck with the bap for a while yet?

Goldie fish
23rd September 2006, 20:33
Minister says December. Given the quantity involved I can only assume its in one lot and not Phased in like other weapons in the past.

The BAP isnt getting any younger.

happenin
23rd September 2006, 20:46
But as we have seen with the height restrictions fiasco, What the minister does and what he says are completly different things. Hopefully it does come in by then but hey, i won't see it for a good while yet so i'm not too pushed either way.

Truck Driver
23rd September 2006, 20:58
Minister says December. Given the quantity involved I can only assume its in one lot and not Phased in like other weapons in the past.

The BAP isnt getting any younger.

Which means people will have to get trained up on it in time for the APWT's
in the New Year.


The BAP isnt getting any younger

You can sing that !!!

The real Jack
18th November 2006, 15:39
Well we got it completely wrong in the poll anyway...

Chief Bubblewrap
18th November 2006, 16:22
What's this "we got it wrong" lark, don't drag me down with you all!

Seriously though, eddie hobbs musta given willie a spankin and got his arse in gear to get a price like that. On sayin that i know a fella who can do us a good deal on nearly new shotguns if anybody wants to give the dod a bell? They have the wooden bit removed n all so the fella says.

Goldie fish
18th November 2006, 19:29
Do they have a shortened barrell too?

Komsomol
19th November 2006, 17:22
Very surprised not many people picked the CZ there in the poll,
I'm guessing not many of you know of it.

One thing its famous for is its use by competition marksmen around the world. It has won many many competitions so far and a certain model has a waiting list of over two years as a result.

yellowjacket
19th November 2006, 21:42
I think one or two of us have seen them at some stage.

Goldie fish
17th December 2006, 21:48
Christmas is coming, and shortly after, the end of the year....where are the pistols???

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

hedgehog
17th December 2006, 22:00
Christmas is coming, and shortly after, the end of the year....where are the pistols???


Have you been naughty or nice Goldie

Goldie fish
17th December 2006, 22:22
Nice of course...

Groundhog
17th December 2006, 23:00
Christmas is coming, and shortly after, the end of the year....where are the pistols???

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Presumably they are sitting nice and dry in an Ordnance Store in a depot far far away. Well Kildare anyway.:biggrin:

All in good time. It's like a bottle of Bulmers.

California Tanker
17th December 2006, 23:36
Very surprised not many people picked the CZ there in the poll,
I'm guessing not many of you know of it.

One thing its famous for is its use by competition marksmen around the world. It has won many many competitions so far and a certain model has a waiting list of over two years as a result.

I'm quite familiar with the CZ and it's good reputation, but I'm also quite familiar with the good reputation of some of the other candidates on the poll. That said, its use by competition marksmen doesn't mean a hell of a lot in the military context: Anschutz are famous for their competition rifles, but you don't see many militaries using them. Oh well, USP is a very nice pistol, I've fired the 9mm version and it was on my Christmas list for this year before being relegated in favour of an FAL.


You only take aim in the second pressure.

I think I'm in some apparant disagreement with Goldie over the difference between a single-action and double-action pistol however. I believe he's confusing a two-stage trigger with a double-action.

Semi-autos come in DAO, SAO and SA as a general rule. Most are SA, but some, like the 1911 are SAO: Basically in an SAO, the hammer must be cocked before the first round is fired. All trigger pulls are equally light. Pulling the trigger with the hammer down does nothing. A DAO does not cock the hammer back after a round is fired, the hammer returns forward. Pulling the trigger also pulls back the hammer, much as for a modern revolver. All trigger pulls are equally heavy. A standard single action works both ways: If the hammer is down for the first round, a heavy, double-action trigger pull is required, and all subsequent shots start with the hammer back, courtesy of the slide. A two-stage trigger works as he described, there is a 'light' pull of the trigger until you hit a point of some resistance, which requires a heavier pull to proceed beyond.

NTM

Gasplug
18th December 2006, 02:17
Oh well, USP is a very nice pistol, I've fired the 9mm version and it was on my Christmas list for this year before being relegated in favour of an FAL.





you bastard!

Goldie fish
8th January 2007, 19:28
Had the Pleasure of firing the Steyr Pistol yesterday. I'm surprised it wasn't included(or was it). Lovely to fire, very light too(compared to the BAP).

http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/index.php?id=86&L=1

Very nice indeed.

Docman
8th January 2007, 23:30
Anyone actually seen the new pistols?

ARPs coming up soon. Still training on the BAP.

yellowjacket
8th January 2007, 23:33
Goldie, Steyr went through a commercially awkward patch during the past few years, but seem to be back on the go now. This might have precluded them from tendering.

Parts
12th January 2007, 00:29
Anyone actually seen the new pistols?

ARPs coming up soon. Still training on the BAP.

I don't think anyone's seen them yet, with the possible exception of ARW.

Muzzle
12th January 2007, 06:39
I don't think anyone's seen them yet, with the possible exception of ARW.

Sure the ARW have the Sig and im sure they wwere familiar with the USP long before this.

hptmurphy
15th January 2007, 21:47
I fired the above pictured weapon and there were no inherent faults to why it should have been selected..comfortable, accurate. ease of maintanance..should have been a contender..oh well back to the bap for the time being by the looks o it.

Goldie fish
15th January 2007, 21:52
Looks that way for this years shooting anyway.

Muzzle
16th January 2007, 11:38
I fired the above pictured weapon and there were no inherent faults to why it should have been selected..comfortable, accurate. ease of maintanance..should have been a contender..

To be fair the HK is all of that so I wouldn't be too heart broken :smile:

It strips down to the slide, barrel, return spring and pistol grop/body and is easier to strip and clean then a BAP. Decocker means no more jamming your fingers up the mag well.

Craghopper
16th January 2007, 12:05
To be fair the HK is all of that so I wouldn't be too heart broken :smile:

It strips down to the slide, barrel, return spring and pistol grop/body and is easier to strip and clean then a BAP. Decocker means no more jamming your fingers up the mag well.

I actually have a welt because of that..

yellowjacket
16th January 2007, 13:07
In fairness, there's probably at least 20 pistol types out there that would be entirely suitable for army use. Somehow I'd guess economics/availability count for more than detail design issues.

Craghopper
16th January 2007, 14:48
In fairness, there's probably at least 20 pistol types out there that would be entirely suitable for army use. Somehow I'd guess economics/availability count for more than detail design issues.

Im sure the USP will meet all the DF's requirements and more..We will have one of the most modern Pistol's in service.The British Forces still use the BAP(except for the obvious) And the Canadians.

And rightly so..As a small Defence Forces we should be the best equipted.

Parts
16th January 2007, 18:40
To be fair the HK is all of that so I wouldn't be too heart broken :smile:

It strips down to the slide, barrel, return spring and pistol grop/body and is easier to strip and clean then a BAP. Decocker means no more jamming your fingers up the mag well.

Ah, no more separating those who had good sex lives from those who didn't.:wink:

yellowjacket
16th January 2007, 19:45
Why not something like this:

http://images.quizfarm.com/1109390232revolver.jpg

Proper gat.

Goldie fish
16th January 2007, 20:06
All you need is a 17 shot revolver....

yellowjacket
16th January 2007, 20:57
All some people need is one shot..

Goldie fish
16th January 2007, 21:11
Issue Derringers to everyone then.

Kieran
17th January 2007, 15:33
Some Derringers carry 2 rounds. and You probably have to be within p*ssing distance for them to be of any real use.

Goldie fish
1st February 2007, 19:22
The numbers of pistols held by RDF units is not large either. But that would Be operational info.

Whats a styer?

hedgehog
1st February 2007, 19:23
What pistol did we settle for in the end

Goldie fish
1st February 2007, 19:29
From News.

http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?t=9477



http://www.heckler-koch.de/media/Produkte/usp.jpg
http://www.heckler-koch.de/media/Produkte_Slideshow/USP_stainless_magazin.jpg

Coming soon to a Holster near you.

I always thought lara had the Desert Eagle...


ahem..

hedgehog
1st February 2007, 20:02
whats the name of the new psitol

thanks

DeV
1st February 2007, 20:10
See page 9 of this thread

Heckler and Koch USP

hedgehog
1st February 2007, 20:11
See page 9 of this thread

Heckler and Koch USP

that seems a lot of hard work

but thanks anyway