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silverside
23rd January 2003, 22:18
Hi
There was a pullout in Connect just before christmas. It was aimed at people going for ARW selection, but it had a suggested list of what to put in each pouch/pocket when on the ground (mags, spare clothing, food, tacaides, model kit, etc, etc).

Now would some kind soul have a copy they could scan in and post here?

And have ye any comments on what they suggested??

T.I.M.
24th January 2003, 14:19
Yes I too would like if someone could post this list up onto the board!:cool:

The Fonz
28th January 2003, 00:56
Well i have that very pull out your talkin about on my wall in my room and will write down what goes where in the morning cause it is late now ok but expect to see the list tommrow afternoon ok

Infy
29th January 2003, 18:33
any word of this list?

The Fonz
29th January 2003, 19:01
Ok people here some of it, take in mind that this kit list is for soldiers going on Ranger selection! and we as reservist don't get issued big bregens or rocket pouchs. Also anything with a * is to kept waterproofed.

SMOCK:

Top Left Pocket: Pencils,Compass,Tac-Aid,Torch,Waterproof-makers*,Whistle.

Top Right Pocket: Combat Survival Tin,High Energy Food* ie. marsbars-boiled sweets,Lighter*,Spoon.

Bottom Left Pocket: Bush Hat*,Leather Fingerless Gloves*.

Bottom Right Pocket: Laminated Map,Tissues*.

Ok This is the PLCE webbing configured for selection it consists of 2 double ammo pouchs,2 Waterbottle pouchs,3 Utility pouchs at the rear. On the Left strap theres a filed dressing taped on(remember when taping on use black tape) on the Right strap theres a Pace Counter.

I'll do the kit-list for the Webbing and Bergen when i write them down on a note-pad ok.

T.I.M.
30th January 2003, 20:53
Any chance of the entire list inc webbing & bergin!?

boforgunner
6th February 2003, 17:03
ya that could be interesting....can you imagine the Qs face if you asked for all this stuff!!!

²°°³Soldier
6th February 2003, 19:55
Originally posted by boforgunner
ya that could be interesting....can you imagine the Qs face if you asked for all this stuff!!!

Cpl: Hi Q I fond this list on the internet, can I sign out all this stuff before going to camp this year? :o

Q: NO - piss off, do you think I have nothing better to then hand out equipment to everybody that comes in here - thats not what I'm here for! :mad:

yellowjacket
4th April 2003, 19:31
For those of ye whoare into gucci gear, where does it all go?

medic
4th April 2003, 19:45
Whats in your webbing should change depending on what type of op/exercise you are going on

Gunner Al
13th April 2003, 22:44
Originally posted by T.I.M.
Any chance of the entire list inc webbing & bergin!?

i have the entire list from the school of artillary but there's no way im typing it all out!! - its 10 freakin pages long.

I'll give you a lend of it TIM ;)

Hawk
15th April 2003, 15:40
fonz any chance of that list??

Bam Bam
2nd June 2004, 03:24
Myself I carry a good deal of kit in my smock and as such its a weight. Also I've seen troopers with nothing in theirs. I'm just wondering what do you have in your smock? And do you change the kit depending on what you are doing? ie on parade or weekends?

HavocIRL
2nd June 2004, 04:02
I just keep gloves, scrim net, notebook and mobile in mine.

Goldie fish
2nd June 2004, 04:11
The smock has massive pockets for a reason. What the FU&$ are you doing with a mobile on tactics?
One of my smocks is laid out as recommended with mozzie kit,cam paint,compass,small torch,small folding knife etc..Naturally all this comes out for parade....or i just put on my second,clean smock.

HavocIRL
2nd June 2004, 04:20
Actually I meant on parade i.e. when I am in the center.

bulldemboots!
2nd June 2004, 05:02
Originally posted by Goldie fish
Naturally all this comes out for parade....or i just put on my second,clean smock.

Second smock. Nice for some...

fillo
2nd June 2004, 13:41
If you don't know what should be in your smock maybe you should not be wearing one.......Some of there questions are unbelievable !!

DeV
2nd June 2004, 14:58
There was an excellent foldout in Connect a few months ago, based on what is carried, where & why for the Std NCOs Cse, run by the NCO Training Wing.

But personally, on tactics I carry as little as I can in my smock, eg whistle, pen knife, tac aide, sweets etc. The reason being it makes it uncomfortable when you get down, more difficult to run, & harder to get things out. The flaps on the pockets, while making sure you don't lose anything, also make it very difficult to take things out quickly (especially a tac aide).

JAG
2nd June 2004, 15:43
"The smock has massive pockets for a reason. What the FU&$ are you doing with a mobile on tactics?"

Apparrantly you are unfamiliar with the lesser known code phrase invented by CIS personnell "use other means"= take out your mobile phone and ring the section commander because this radio is screwed.

Bitching about SINCGARS: The SINCGARS cost about €10k. Handsets, without which the sets are useless, cost about €100. Guess what the DF didn't buy for the new radios? Or at least, that used to be the state of play.

ForkTailedDevil
2nd June 2004, 15:52
Even the British Army resorted to individual troops using their personal mobile phones in the Balkans because the Clansman?(i think) radios werent working.Come to think of it how come the coverage there was good and I have to look like an idiot waving my phone around trying to get a signal with my t610 in parts of Belfast???

DeV
2nd June 2004, 16:14
The Finnish KFOR troops (with whom IRCON operate) have a GSM network set up over the area.

Bravo20
2nd June 2004, 16:26
Are the Finnish KFOR troops sponsored by Nokia:D

T.I.M.
2nd June 2004, 17:43
ever heard the saying

LIVE, FIGHT,SURVIVE...

live from your bergin, fight from your cefo, survive (cant spell) from your smock....

Lothario
2nd June 2004, 17:47
For Tactics:Whistle, Lighter, Penknife and compas.
Tie shoelace to each individual item and attach to the little ring at the top of your pockets (1 item per hole please).
Result:no loss of eqiup,know exactly where everything is and its easier to take out.
No need to thank me....... I already know.:D

T.I.M.
2nd June 2004, 17:58
and you know with your vast experience?

and what if your hungry?

and does a bear sh1t in the woods?

Kieran
2nd June 2004, 18:06
Camo cream, bush hat, zippo, leatherman, camera, note book, pen, pencil, nd for exercise's, as much ammo as i can get my filthy little hands on.

Lothario
2nd June 2004, 18:10
I never said that was all you carry in your smock.
I offered a suggestion, and I assumed that your previous post "Survive (cant spell) from your smock" covered food.
You'd be surprised that most soldiers are intelligent enough to understand...... Why cant you?:) :p

Arty Farty
2nd June 2004, 19:02
TM 201 sets out what you should have in your smock, check the appendices

Failing that download the Connect poster on Admin in the Field <b>here</b> (http://www.military.ie/images/connect/2004/conect_feb_admin_in_the_field.pdf)

trellheim
2nd June 2004, 19:11
true, it does, but as GF said if you've got a second smock for those hot summer nights ...

TM201 is getting on a bit now but that appendix is damn useful .


yer KFS can go in a pocket or hang a spoon round your neck

My leatherman normally goes in the compass pocket , tac aide on the inside zip

kfs and maglite , ziplocked lighter and fags in the pockets, peltor and small mapcase w/compass tied on inside in left pocket, field dressing in field dressing pocket

I find I can't move fast with anything more than the map in the trous

the rest is a good balance between what's needed and wanted.

T.I.M.
2nd June 2004, 19:55
Originally posted by trellheim

I find I can't move fast with anything more than the map in the trous

same here but you have an advantage

you can just have your batman carry it for you... :)

trellheim
2nd June 2004, 22:40
now now ....

Bailer
3rd June 2004, 00:48
<font face="tahoma" color="#ff9900">Annex C to TM201 Manual of Infantry Pl and Section Tactics.

Ask your NCO for a copy.

A recent copy of Connect had a massive Poster on admin in the Field.

</font>

Bam Bam
3rd June 2004, 21:53
Would my NCO give me annex C?
Another question why are we (average grunt) not given these manuals?
surely we could find them as useful as the NCO's and PNCO's do

If I asked my NCO could he give me a copy of TM201?

The Joker
3rd June 2004, 23:38
No. It is not necessary for each person in a company to have a copy of the manual. Once the NCO's have a copy of it, and plan their lessons with the manual. I am guessing you have never seen TM201. Its huge, not very cost effective to give 1 copy to everybody.

Bam Bam
4th June 2004, 04:42
I have seen it and I know its big I just think it would be good to have the manual. But would my NCO at least give me a copy of annex C

Big Al
4th June 2004, 04:48
try asking him/her/it.....

HavocIRL
4th June 2004, 04:50
Would it not be easier for everyone involved if one of the NCO's on this site sent you a copy of it by email?

Bam Bam
4th June 2004, 05:31
Havoc's right any NCO e-mail me a copy of tm201 annex-c please

yellowjacket
4th June 2004, 05:38
Any NCO doing that will be committing an offence of passing on restricted information, and hopefully wouldn't be that stupid.

Get official information through official channels. This board is certainly not for organising the obtaining of improper information.

Bam Bam
4th June 2004, 06:20
oops

Goldie fish
4th June 2004, 15:22
If you are in a proper RDF unit,instructing you on all aspects of fieldcraft should be carried out as a matter of course. TM201 should be instructed as often as weapons training or foot drill.
The annex that deals with what goes where however should be instructed every time there is a tactical exercise or training imminent. If you have not done this lecture at least once a year,you should transfer. Active units should have the latest update. PDF units that have rotated to Timor, Eritrea or Liberia have returned with modifications to the pattern,and these should be followed where possible.

Bam Bam
6th June 2004, 06:16
Personally I feel it would help if TM201 was made available to privates, if they want it.

not even the book itself but on CD.

Remember in school, you always had the text book beside you for your own reference and you still always took notes.

It would help even at home recapping lessons and knowing the proper precedures.

Tell me if a asked my NCO for a copy of TM201 would I get a copy, be laughed out of it or both?

HavocIRL
6th June 2004, 06:26
I never realised the contents of a soldiers smock was so classified.

Goldie fish
6th June 2004, 06:32
Because Privates are of low intelligence,it is better that they be spoon fed all information. Providing them with a textbook to study could lead to information overload and confusion.


Fact is TM201 is in short enough supply to NCOs that it would be risky giving it out to privates too. It is also a restricted Publication and rarely if ever should leave the environs of a Barracks.

That is why you take notes.

Bam Bam
6th June 2004, 07:21
me low intelligence, no no no you are very wronger.
Me smart, me prov it

!!!ME MAKE FIRE!!!

SEE It beside me and big kakulator with big tv glass that I can see what me rites.

OHH OOO! Fire get big, ME no I make fire go away, Me hit it with these wood sticks.

BAD this is the biggerest fire me everest sawed.

OWWW arm all burney and hot now , Me know me bite it off

OWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

Goldie fish
6th June 2004, 07:34
Q.E.D

Bam Bam
6th June 2004, 07:42
IT OK ME ONLY LOSES MINES FRONTIST ARM

FMolloy
6th June 2004, 21:58
I never realised the contents of a soldiers smock was so classified.

The contents of a smock isn't classified, the manual & annex you asked for is. If you've trouble understanding why the dissemination of classified information is frowned upon then you don't belong here & certainly don't belong in the DF.

I'd also suggest you try directing any further dissent on the issue to Josh & see where that gets you.


me low intelligence, no no no you are very wronger.

When are you getting commissioned?

Bam Bam
25th November 2004, 03:17
Okay I've got a list together for what I have in my smock when I go out on the ground:

Bottom Left Pocket
- Burnshields
- Pocket First Aid
- Exam Gloves
- Crepe Bandage

Bottom Right Pocket
- Fingerless Gloves
- Soldier 95 Gloves
- Bush Hat
- MultiTool

Top Left Pocket
- Scrim net
- Right Angle Torch
- Painkillers
- Spoon
- Shemagh

Top Right Pocket
- MagLite
- Mozzie Net
- Tissues
- Camo Stick
- Whistle
- Weapon Camo Set and Monocular
- Mirror Wrapped In A Cloth
- Sweeties

Left Arm Pocket
- Waterproof Pen
- Water Soluble Pen
- Normal Pen
- Elastic Bands
- Chinograph Pencil
- Flint and Striker
- Fishing Kit
- Pencil Sharpener
- Zippo Lighter

First Aid Pocket
- Field Dressing
- Exam Gloves

Inside Pocket
- Map
- Compass
- TacAid (When I'm a Corporal)

Muzzle
25th November 2004, 05:01
If you have all that in your pockets what are you keeping in your webbing?

Is it just me who thinks that thats a ridiculas amount of stuff to have in pockets. Can you crawl and lie confortably on your front? What do you do if you have to take your smock off?

Arty Farty
25th November 2004, 05:33
:rolleyes: remember the old saying folks "Live with the contents of your backpack; Fight with the contents of your webbing and Survive with the contents of your jacket"

I don't mean to be smart when I say this Bam Bam but if you've got all that kit in your jacket I'd hate to see how much you've got in your webbing... and that would be BEFORE you load up all your ammo.

Search the Military.ie website and download the Connect posters for admin in the field

strummer
25th November 2004, 05:39
Will someone just give this guy a copy of that manual or appendix or whatever he's looking for...

I'm getting sick of this thread.

Later.

Bam Bam
25th November 2004, 08:46
Ok muzzle, arty farty if you were on the ground for 24 - 72 hrs, pocket by pocket as I've done, what would you have in your smock?

Bear in mind this setup works for me and each piece has an important role.

I thought of different problems I may encounter on the ground, and I want to be able to take care of myself.

As for if I'm comfortable lying down. The main time I'd be lying down with this amount of kit is during a section / platoon in attack, and you have more important things to consider then "am I comfortable?"

Muzzle
25th November 2004, 16:51
Ok muzzle, arty farty if you were on the ground for 24 - 72 hrs, pocket by pocket as I've done, what would you have in your smock?

As for if I'm comfortable lying down. The main time I'd be lying down with this amount of kit is during a section / platoon in attack, and you have more important things to consider then "am I comfortable?"

Nothing it would all be in my webbing and backpack/day sack. The odd time I put choc or biscuits in the top pockets but they tend to get squashed and grubby so I try not to. Maps are grand in those pockets as well as there is nowhere in the webbing that would house them easily enough. Generally if you have a map it would be in a map case hung around your kneck though. Took a disposable camera on one exercise and kept it in the top pockets but it got cracked from lying on it and ruiened a few good shots.

What about lying in an OP for a few hours (or days) or in a covering postion for an ambush? Do your bulging pockets restrict you movment (crawling or standing)?

As for "Live with the contents of your backpack; Fight with the contents of your webbing and Survive with the contents of your jacket" Iv never heard that saying. You Live out of you backpack but you fight and survive out of your webbing. What ever about taking on and off a jacket your webbing should be the one thing (other then your weapon) that you never take off. Think of how many pictures of guys patroling with and with out smocks have you seen from Liberia, East Timor the Leb? You will never see them without webbing.

The smock is technically comabt wear (i.e. a must) but realistically you will take it off and put it on as your needs change. If you are happy with you setup go for it, I personally would shift 95% of that stuff to webbing.

Come-quickly
25th November 2004, 17:31
For use in the field just follow the admin guidelines laid out in the connect foldout as closely as you can, compass on all, its not much good saying compasses are corporals kit if your a private thats gotten lost, my unit teaches basic map and compass work at the earliest opportunity and Im very frightened by the idea of anyone getting three stars before they can nav.
As for the comfort issue, for field use the smock should have the drawstrings pulled in as tight as possible, with the bottom of the pockets just under the hip bones, if you pack the kit well and tie the most common items (compass, torch with batteries, Spoon etc) to the pockets it will make life a lot easier... the idea that you should always carry as little as possible belongs back in the day of obese platoon sergeants and privates with bottles of coke in their webbing.

Theres an admin instruction for a reason if you know so much better Id suggest you apply to the DFTC for a position making them.

Parts
25th November 2004, 22:16
Okay I've got a list together for what I have in my smock when I go out on the ground:

Bottom Left Pocket
- Burnshields
- Pocket First Aid
- Exam Gloves
- Crepe Bandage

Bottom Right Pocket
- Fingerless Gloves
- Soldier 95 Gloves
- Bush Hat
- MultiTool

Top Left Pocket
- Scrim net
- Right Angle Torch
- Painkillers
- Spoon
- Shemagh

Top Right Pocket
- MagLite
- Mozzie Net
- Tissues
- Camo Stick
- Whistle
- Weapon Camo Set and Monocular
- Mirror Wrapped In A Cloth
- Sweeties

Left Arm Pocket
- Waterproof Pen
- Water Soluble Pen
- Normal Pen
- Elastic Bands
- Chinograph Pencil
- Flint and Striker
- Fishing Kit
- Pencil Sharpener
- Zippo Lighter

First Aid Pocket
- Field Dressing
- Exam Gloves

Inside Pocket
- Map
- Compass
- TacAid (When I'm a Corporal)
Left ammo pouch:
- sink, kitchen type

Right ammo pouch:
- pear tree, c/w partridge

water bottle pouch/respirator pouch/utility pouches:
- the rest of me gaff

Rucksack, main:
- the world...

Rucksack, side pouches:
- ...and his wife.
:biggrin:

DeV
25th November 2004, 22:17
From the ARW poster in connect:

Top left-
Chinagraph pencils
compass
tac aide
small torch
waterproof markers
whistle

Bottom Left -
bush hat
fingerless gloves

Arm Left -
fd dressing

Bottom Right -
map
tissues

Top Right -
combat survival tin
high carbohydrate food
lighter
spoon

Bam Bam
25th November 2004, 22:27
Actually the kit in my smock is a direct evolution from that list.

apod
25th November 2004, 22:47
The arw kit list is a very good guide.Not too much or too little.Bam Bam looking at your list i would say you are possibly carrying too much kit.Some items such as glove you are duplicating.Fair enough i carry two pairs aswell but one pair,soldier 95,for wet weather is carried in the shoot and scoot bag along with neckwarmer and skipcap.The fingerless gloves go in the smock when not worn.
tm 201 kit list is now out of date.The new kit list is at the back of the new tam.The bum bag (respirator case is never worn on the cefo now)and daysacks have started to make the wearing of rocket pouches obsolete.This has led to a re assesment based on what soldiers actually carry aswell as the recommened items.
Two field dressings are the way to go.Bullets make two holes remember.Good point about not allways wearing the smock.you shoul be able to transfer items to your shirt/pants/cefo in hot weather.pm me if you want more hints :wink:

Truck Driver
29th November 2004, 02:52
Yes, Murph, that's the same one that appeared in An Cosantoir a few months ago.
As for (Trellheim?) keeping fags in the pocket of the combat jacket, I'd say the
aforementioned cigarettes are in a fine state (the phrase "squashed in shite" comes to
mind) after a few section in attack drills !!!

T.I.M.
30th November 2004, 20:28
There was an excellent foldout in Connect a few months ago, based on what is carried, where & why for the Std NCOs Cse, run by the NCO Training Wing.
.

in the TAM 2003 theres a suggested load to carry in chapter 6 i think!

Docman
30th November 2004, 22:01
in the TAM 2003 theres a suggested load to carry in chapter 6 i think!
Is is only a very rough guide. Units SOPs are far more detailed.

T.I.M.
1st December 2004, 17:54
but your unit SOP's dont leave any room for personal preffrence, i hate carrying things in my leg pockets!

Docman
1st December 2004, 19:03
The Army doesn't really care about your "personal preference". The SOPs exist for a reason and your preference is not one of them.

bulldemboots!
1st December 2004, 21:38
where am I supposed to keep my fags?


The compass pouch (on the 58) is good for that. I have seen it used.

Docman
1st December 2004, 21:49
The compass pouch (on the 58) is good for that. I have seen it used.

What compass pouch on the '58?

apod
1st December 2004, 22:56
Look up the silvermans website and you will see it docman aswell as the 58 binos pouch.Both of which were on issue to officers in the pdf when we used 58.As for rigidly sticking to sops when it comes to kit packing i would say try to stick to it as much as possible when it comes to vital items.Ammo,ffd etc.However you should allow troops to be flexible aslong as they have all the kit they should have. :cool:
If everyone stuck rigidly to sops all the time then no one would try anything new and better ways of doing things would never evolve.EG:brits in falklands war use private purchase bergans as opposed to the "sop" 58 ptn one.B.A notice this and developed the far superior plce bergan that we have today. :biggrin:

T.I.M.
1st December 2004, 23:27
The Army doesn't really care about your "personal preference"..

oh i think otherwise... infact im sure thats why we have such large buttons on our smocks, cause its would be kinda hard to open with your gloves on while your out on the groud in a trench in the glen at minus 4 degrees!




The SOPs exist for a reason and your preference is not one of them.

yes i know, to eliminate confusion for example! but never the less why do your unit's sops say you carry a mag in your pocket of your smock and not your trouser pocket? you can take your smock off easly, you cant do the same with trousers...


now, theres fsome food for thought!

Docman
1st December 2004, 23:36
As for rigidly sticking to sops when it comes to kit packing i would say try to stick to it as much as possible when it comes to vital items.Ammo,ffd etc.However you should allow troops to be flexible aslong as they have all the kit they should have.

ssshhhh Don't tell T.I.M. that. :biggrin:

No I was trying to make the point that unit SOPs are a good "guide" and that there are certain essentials that have to be followed, ie ammo ffd etc. I for one don't stick very rigidly to the SOPs. However I insist that recruits do until they have the experience to decide for themselves.


oh i think otherwise... infact im sure thats why we have such large buttons on our smocks, cause its would be kinda hard to open with your gloves on while your out on the groud in a trench in the glen at minus 4 degrees!

That is an operational matter. Leads to increased fighting efficiency. However the choice between the Blue sweet or the red sweet is personal preference. That is what I am talking about.


yes i know, to eliminate confusion for example! but never the less why do your unit's sops say you carry a mag in your pocket of your smock and not your trouser pocket? you can take your smock off easly, you cant do the same with trousers...

Because it is easier for the elements to get at it and increases the chance of stoppages!!! Then again, each unit has its own SOPs. Heard of the mag in the pocket, haven't heard of it being done in a while. We tend to put the ammo in our webbing but then again we don't get enough ammo to go hiding any away.

apod
3rd December 2004, 22:39
:rolleyes: OH sweet jesus.AMMO pouches are for ammo,pockets are for field admin.END OF STORY.In the pdf we NEVER EVER put ammo in our pockets it so is so tactically unsound as to be almost suicidal. :rolleyes:

Goldie fish
4th December 2004, 02:42
The 4bn were carrying a steyr mag in the inside pocket of the smock last time i looked at their sop....or it may have been the 12th. I'll look for it and show you on your return.

bulldemboots!
4th December 2004, 03:05
:rolleyes: AMMO pouches are for ammo,pockets are for field admin.END OF STORY.In the pdf we NEVER EVER put ammo in our pockets it so is so tactically unsound as to be almost suicidal. :rolleyes:

Yeah but if youre on security duty (in the RDF) without webbing, which is only provided, in general, if you're doing security in barracks (in place of PDF personnel) you have to put the mag(s) in your pockets!

Goldie fish
4th December 2004, 03:07
Thats what the pocket of the flak jacket is for though...

strummer
4th December 2004, 03:15
Someone should've told the guy I used to see on gate duty on the canal entrance, (by the motor pool) to Cathal Brugha. He always had his pants cargo pockets crammed with Steyr mags. Granted, this was a good few years ago.

Later.

apod
11th December 2004, 20:40
W e use the pocket on the flacker when on cit escort,but never have i seen or heard of anyone putting a mag in their pocket or being told to do so in the 12th.As for the rdf ye should allways be issued webbing for scty duty.no excuses.

T.I.M.
11th December 2004, 20:50
The Army doesn't really care about your "personal preference".


Look at the new tac aide, chapter 3,section 3.3 look under the note II...
i rest my case! :)

DeV
9th February 2005, 17:47
What to carry in your smock?

From Connect in Feb 2004, aimed at PDF Std NCOs Course
http://www.military.ie/images/connect/2004/conect_feb_admin_in_the_field.pdf

greyfox
9th February 2005, 20:28
just a quick list compass, pen knife , binos , 30m para chord, 2 bin liners, gloves, bush hat , first aide kit, trip wire 20m , cammo cream/mirror. tea bags/ coffee flint&steel , lighter zippo. whistle .sight adgusting key, sweets tac aide , notebook 2 biros normally only hump the gloves and bush hat only for tactics but whistle compass are on a dummy chord

we had a lecture from the pdf once from some lads just back from e timor and one of them demonstrated what he had in his pockets , and gave us a nice list


top pockets notebook 2 pencils,2 cinagraph pencil,whistle,silva compass,admin docs, tac aide,protractor,stabilo pens red blue,
bottom pockets 30m twine,cammo cream mirror, pocket torch /s batteries,neck warmer,prismatic compass, insulating tape pocket binos

hedgehog
10th February 2005, 23:10
Someone should've told the guy I used to see on gate duty on the canal entrance, (by the motor pool) to Cathal Brugha. He always had his pants cargo pockets crammed with Steyr mags. Granted, this was a good few years ago.

the guy on that gate was never armed- so i doubt it was steyr mags- knowing some of hte lads who do that gate it was more than likely porno mags

strummer
11th February 2005, 01:31
Yep, he was too !!! But I am going back quite a few years here, perhaps before your own Army time. At least 12 or 13 years ago, probably even longer, still olive green uniforms, I think (fuzzy mind these days, me).

I remember distinctly the guy having a steyr though. what was unusual that these were the first times I ever saw that gate open and in use.

Later.

Steamy Window
29th March 2005, 16:35
getting together my webbing kit at the moment... after talking to Bam Bam about this subject last week, and also after having seen the An Cosantoir poster on same got me thinking...what do you carry on your webbing?

"Live from your backpack, fight from your webbing, survive from your jacket" is a quote ive heard (or similar)

Muzzle
29th March 2005, 17:18
There is a huge thread about this from a few months ago. Personally I dont agree with the saying as your jacket will come on and off with the weather where as no matter what your doing your webbing should never come off.

Goldie fish
29th March 2005, 17:23
Great to hear the combat veterans giving their opinion....

Steamy Window
29th March 2005, 17:25
There is a huge thread about this from a few months ago. Personally I dont agree with the saying as your jacket will come on and off with the weather where as no matter what your doing your webbing should never come off.


i tried the much vaunted search function, perhaps i didnt use the right search terms... :rolleyes:

but thats a great reply to my question anyway :rolleyes:

Muzzle
29th March 2005, 17:35
i tried the much vaunted search function, perhaps i didnt use the right search terms... :rolleyes:


http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?t=3603&highlight=Live+backpack

Come-quickly
29th March 2005, 17:38
Why doesn't anyone chech with their units first.
There is a detailed admin instruction available, if your unit are footdragging shooting competition obsessives then get it from Connect.
Stop getting the opinions of people who for all you know could be little old ladies who've never worn a shade of green and get the official information that is there for you to use.

Goldie fish
29th March 2005, 17:39
For once I agree with CQ.

Bam Bam
29th March 2005, 18:19
http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?t=3603&highlight=Live+backpack


Thats for smock not web

Muzzle
29th March 2005, 18:27
From memmory it covers both or if it dosn't it links to stuff that does. Should also list which manuals to consult. Its a good starting point either way but like most threads around here it dosnt come to any usefull conclusions.

Bam Bam
29th March 2005, 18:54
no. just smock.

Goldie fish
29th March 2005, 20:21
"Welcome to our newest member, Search Function"

I hear he is feeling used...

Right bitches,this is how it works.

Admin in the field is something that should be taught by a units NCOs according to Unit SOPs and best practice. In the South, BTC(S) regularly come up with an updated list of what to carry,and where,based on experiences learnt from those returning from overseas operations. East Timor,for example was a massive learning curve for the DF,who up to then had never been involved in Modern long range patrolling at platoon level.

So they come up with a list,its circulated to the PDF units in the Brigade. RDF units send people on courses instructed by members of these pdf units,who in turn share this list with RDF. The RDF people then go back to their units with this new list,which is in turn shared with all interested individuals.

I am curious why stameen feels the need to ask this question on a message board like this,when he could ask any number of NCOs,and officers for the up to date list.

Meanwhile,as Kermit says,there is a layout in TM201,as well as a section in the new TAMs

Both of these documents are marked Restricted..

can anyone tell me what that means?

FSG
29th March 2005, 20:36
i carry a mess tin 2 mars bars a galaxy and a packet of tayto in my kidney pouch then carry 2 litres of lucozade in me water bottle me mags with rounds and shit and my chemical warefare suit, tell my what more do ya really need oh yeah its the flat lucozade sport stuff its about 2 euro a bottle thats madness

strummer
29th March 2005, 20:48
Jaysus,

Again with the "RESTRICTED" ...I think the guy was just looking for a few ideas and some input on where to place his equipment.

I'm sure he has received instruction at his unit, but, as we all know, there's plenty of ways to skin a cat, and there are members on this board who maybe would have a different take on gear placement.

I'm with Delta on this one...there's no reason to classify info about carrying extra canteens and a stripped ration pack a friggin' secret !!!

My 02 cents worth.


Later.

Goldie fish
29th March 2005, 20:58
Jaysus,

Again with the "RESTRICTED" ...I think the guy was just looking for a few ideas and some input on where to place his equipment.

Later.

The information is not restricted,the source is.

Its not a question of ideas,suggestions input or guesses.

There is already best practice for carrying such equipment,and it is available to those who ask at unit level.

Its when RDF people show up on an exercise with 3 ammo pouches(full of sandwiches),6 water bottles, a chest rig and camelback that the problems start.

And then you have the people who suggest that their NCOs are not teaching the correct layout because they saw a post on www.military.com by some Former Legionaire who swore by carrying all his kit in a dunnes stores bag with a carrying handle around each of his ears...

I kid you not.

Do whatever your unit tells you.

Muzzle
29th March 2005, 21:02
Id just like to show up for an exercise with webbing other then 58 pattern... :frown:

Goldie fish
29th March 2005, 21:03
If everyone else is using 58,whats the point?

DeV
30th March 2005, 00:06
From the aforementioned search:

What to carry in your smock? (includes CEMO & CEFO)

From Connect in Feb 2004, aimed at PDF Std NCOs Course
http://www.military.ie/images/conne...n_the_field.pdf

Goldie fish
30th March 2005, 02:17
Any NCO doing that will be committing an offence of passing on restricted information, and hopefully wouldn't be that stupid.

Get official information through official channels. This board is certainly not for organising the obtaining of improper information.


Let this be the end of it..please?

FMolloy
30th March 2005, 02:48
The suggested ARW selection course kit list (published in Connect Oct 2003) lists the following:

Smock:
Top Left Pocket: Chinagraph pencils, compass, tac-aid, torch, waterproof markers, whistle.
Bottom Left Pocket: Bush hat, fingerless gloves.
Left Arm Pocket: FFD*.
Bottom Right Pocket: Laminated map, tissues*.
Top Right Pocket: Survival tin, high-carb food*, lighter*, spoon.

Bergen:
Outside Top Pocket: high-carb food*.
Inside Top Pocket: 2 bungees, 6 tent pegs, hygiene kit*, toothbrush*, toothpaste*, medi-wipes*.
Under The Lid: Roll mat.
Main Pack (packed in order of priority):
(Top) 2 litres of water, 24 hour rations*.
(Middle) 2 pairs of socks*, 1 pair of jocks*, 1 pair of gore-tex socks*, 1 light combat trousers*.
(Bottom) Basha, sleeping bag*, bivvy bag*, heavy-duty waterproof bag.

Left Rocket Pouch: Fleece jacket*, Norge*, Thermal top*, Thermal bottom*, Waterproof jacket*, Waterproof trousers*.
Right Rocket Pouch: First-aid kit*, 1 pair of socks*, Peltors*, Model aid kit*, 24 hours rations*, 2 sandbags.
Front Pocket: Entrenching tool.

Belt Order:
Taped to left side of yoke: FFD*.
Left Ammo Pouch: 4 magazines.
Waterbottle Pouch: Water bottle.
Bayonet Holder: Bayonet.
Utility Pouch: 24 hour rations*, hexi cooker & tabs*, metal mug, spoon.
Utility Pouch: Gloves*, wool hat*, neck scarf*.
Utility Pouch: All weather matches*, cam cream, forest goggles, gaffa tape, mozzie net*, bug spray, para cord, seccateurs, space blanket*, spare batteries*, spare lighter*, puri-tabs*, weapon cleaning kit.
Waterbottle Pouch: Water bottle.
Right Ammo Pouch: 4 magazines.

Other Kit Listed:
Personal Knife: Swiss army or multi-tool type.
Pace Counter.
Helmet.

* = in a zip-locked bag.

Goldie fish
30th March 2005, 03:37
Then again...thats arw selection...not RDF 24 hour exercises(unless it rains,and we return to barracks cos nobody has raingear)

FMolloy
30th March 2005, 03:59
The article on admin in the field on the PDF Standard NCO's course, as written by Sgt Mick Smith from the NCO Training Wing (published in Connect Feb 2004) has this to say:

Smock/Pockets:
Field Dressing with a pair of surgical gloves, waterproofed. Camouflage cream, mirror and a universal tool/knife should be carried. Two torches are needed: a right-angled type with filters and a lightweight one, both with spare batteries taped to them. You will need a superfine mosquito net as well as insect repellent and light gloves, which should all be stored together. Para cord: you will need a large amount. Remember if you put it up, remember to take it down again. Tac Aide: to include sentry rosters & contact reports, ammo casualty state to be carried on the person. Carry a minimum of two compasses with luminous strips, whistle & spare lighter, carried on cord, and a small set of binos. Documentation: maps, aerial photos, notebook (all waterproofed), permanent pen, pencils and casualty cards. Small housewife and survival kit: Contains small sewing kit and emergency first kit (including space blanket).

Bergen:
Sleeping System: consisting of a sleeping bag, kip mat, bivvy bag and basha, is usually placed at the base of the main pack. Consider stuffing your sleeping bag into the bivvy bag. Roll your basha around your kip mat and attach to the top of your bergen. You can pre-attach bungee cords to the basha for quick & easy erection. If the bergen is not packed properly and equally balanced it will result in back injury. Rocket pouches should be packed with minimum weight: they are primarily used in the advance to contact or offence and should not restrict movement or be heavily laden. They are also used to carry ammo and/or medical bag. They should be clearly marked: white for ammo & red for section medical bag.Individual Protection Equipment (IPE) is carried in the IPE bag within the rocket pouches. Consisting of IPE suit (trousers & jacket), boots & gloves. The respirator, canister (and spare) and drining attachment are carried in the respirator pouch. The respiratoris carried seperate from the Belf Order depending on the dress cat or threat. Shovels: Entrenching tool, small & big shovel. The big shovel is carried on the outside of the pack and should have a sandbag covering to prevent shine.Wets should be in good condition; if torn they should be replaced. Rank markings and name tags should be worn. In inclement weather you should have gaiters, leather gloves, headgear and a scarf. Clothing: Clothing should be in good repair and examined for it's heat value, size and quality. Polyester thermal sweaters will keep the body warm & reduce the risk of hypothermia when used as part of a layer system. You may be able to get away with one pair of DPM trousers, depending on the weather and pack space. Pack spare clothes on top of the sleeping bag in waterproof bags. Some form of jacket or insulation should be worn at night. High activity: dress down. Low activity: dress up.

Patrol Pack:
When patrolling it should be on top of the main pack and easily accessible, if there is a threat the main pack should be dropped and the patrol pack retained. It should contain an emergency brew kit (tea/coffee, hexi and chocolate) as well as items of ordnance (Kite sight, ammo or signals kit).

Belt Order:
Used to carry arc markers, binos, eating utensils and emergency brew kit, glovers, goggles, emergency medical kit, model kit, rifle cleaning kit, spare kit (socks), snap lights and guides.Carried on top of the belt order are sand bags and the GPMG spare parts kit. On the belt itself, a second FFD. You should add on an extra pouch for the amount of kit you carry and use a bungee to keep it tight & secure either around or through the belt. If you can get a secateurs they are very handy for local foliage, camouflage & concealment. Additional field dressing should be carried on belf order, secured with gaffa tape in a plastic bag. Rifle Cleaning Kit should contain flannelette, pull-through complete, surgical gloves (carbon and cuts don't mix), scouring pad, safety pin for BFA to clean out the small hole in the top. Goggles: To protect eyes while working in the forest. Should have a dark lens to prevent any bright lights reflecting. Arc markers: Designed for use in a shell scrape or base camp to indicate arcs of fire. Tent pegs: Tie down the basha and remember to take them all up again after use. GPMG spare parts wallet: As soon as it is drawn from stores it's contents should be checked - flannelette (should be in a plastic bag), oil (full bottle), at platoon level there should be one wrench for taking off the BFA. The pouch is carried on top of the belt order and secured with a bungee. Two sandbags: Multiple uses: overhead protection and bottom of the shel scrape, for ammo or rations re-supply and POW handling. Illums (on issue) and directional arrows are ideal for guiding troops through narrow forest tracks or thick vegitation. POW handling kit (one per section): Should include sandbags, flexi-cuffs & POW documentation. Model kit: Containing cards with military symbols clearly marked, chalk and ribbons. Leather gloves: Many uses, primarily for inclement weather, for carrying the GPMG (sweaty hands may slip onto the barrel causing burns), to cook with (also preventing burns to hands). Metal mug: recommended because it is easier to cook with. Cutlery should be contained in the mug with a small towel for cleaning.

Goldie fish
30th March 2005, 04:01
And remember what von Clauswitz said.....

"Every soldier should carry an axe lest he need to break down a door"

FMolloy
30th March 2005, 04:02
Those two articles are the only things Connect had to say on the subject for the past few years. I think that's as much as anyone can say without referring to restricted material.

In both cases the authors stress that the lists are suggestions & referr the reader to the appropriate manual or their NCO's.

Steamy Window
30th March 2005, 09:24
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn/Forums/viewtopic/t=14328.html

Theres no problem on arrse about telling people what they carry on their webbing.

as strummer said, i was just looking for advice. I do have the aforementioned article from connect, and i have been using it as a basis for what i will carry. Should there be much difference in what can be carried between 58 and PLCE? I ask this as the article was written or PLCE. I have photocopies from a book which i am also using as a guide, this uses 58 patt as the basis (PLCE was just being trialled at the time, so BA units still had 58)

T.I.M.
30th March 2005, 13:04
And remember what von Clauswitz said.....

"Every soldier should carry an axe lest he need to break down a door"

if i remember it correctly that was the first stage of overloading troops... but i like his thinking!

combatlogo
30th March 2005, 18:03
Click here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0686310012/qid%3D1112202241/202-2711526-6526269)

An excellent read about the perils of overlaoding troops.

Bosco
1st April 2005, 22:18
Second smock. Nice for some...

its all about acquisition
or just bugging the Q until they give in

FMolloy
27th June 2005, 02:58
bump.

DeV
7th July 2005, 21:19
The course SOPs for carriage of equipment for the British Army's School of Infantry (for section to platoon commanders)

http://www.atra.mod.uk/atra/INFBATTSCH/itcwales/Structure/Junior_Division/KIT_LIST.htm

Goldie fish
7th July 2005, 21:20
The course SOPs for carriage of equipment for the British Army's School of Infantry (for section to platoon commanders)

http://www.atra.mod.uk/atra/INFBATTSCH/itcwales/Structure/Junior_Division/KIT_LIST.htm

Lets stick to Irish SOPs for the moment. :redface:

Eddie Dillon
7th July 2005, 22:17
In fairness, who in the hell is going to have anything like the list of equipment Fmolloy posted. This is the RDF.

Forest goggles? If there's anyone who went away and bought forest goggles or an entrenching tool, well, good luck to you and your expectations of the FCA experience.

DeV
7th July 2005, 23:44
In fairness, who in the hell is going to have anything like the list of equipment Fmolloy posted. This is the RDF.

Forest goggles? If there's anyone who went away and bought forest goggles or an entrenching tool, well, good luck to you and your expectations of the FCA experience.

I know someone who has bought a set of NVE goggles

Goldie fish
7th July 2005, 23:49
What generation?

FMolloy
8th July 2005, 00:18
In fairness, who in the hell is going to have anything like the list of equipment Fmolloy posted. This is the RDF.

Forest goggles? If there's anyone who went away and bought forest goggles or an entrenching tool, well, good luck to you and your expectations of the FCA experience.

A bloke on the 2004 (IIRC) E bde standards course picked up a nasty eye injury while moving through a forest at night.

Bam Bam
8th July 2005, 00:38
I wear the ESS shades with the clear lens when moving in forests at night.

I'd risk the shine from the lens rather then the loss of an eye.

morpheus
8th July 2005, 08:56
If you don't have it you're going home.


So if you dont wear gear that you were not issued in the first place, your going home?
Glad im not in your unit. How do you force troops who cant afford gucci kit, to be fully equipped out of their own pockets?

By the way, i understand its safer to wear them, its just that when the ammount of kit required to be an effective trooper is compared with the ammount of effective kit issued, it leaves a lot to be desired and a lighter wallet.

Eddie Dillon
8th July 2005, 15:03
That stuff is SOP for exercises I've been on. If you don't have it you're going home.

Of course it is and should be SOP. All that kit is necessary and needed by a military force, but in Ireland it is not issued to soldiers, at least reservists, and it costs a tidy sum to kit yourself up fully. To send someone home for not forking out hundreds for kit you'll probably use very rarely is rediculous. Issue it or improvise.

strummer
8th July 2005, 15:12
That stuff is SOP for exercises I've been on. If you don't have it you're going home.


Are these unit exercises? Does your unit issue all of this equipment to soldiers? Do you really send unit members home if they don't have all the equipment that hasn't been issued to them? Are you making your junior enlisted buy equipment with their own money just so they can go on exercises? Are only the "gear-queers" allowed to go on your unit exercises?

Buy gear or go home???

And you want to be an officer !!!!?????


Later.

T.I.M.
8th July 2005, 15:53
Strummer were you born a prick or did you have to work on it...

T.I.M.
8th July 2005, 15:56
A bloke on the 2004 (IIRC) E bde standards course picked up a nasty eye injury while moving through a forest at night.

all the standard cse last year had safety glasses care of one of the students... even got me a set of him...

ive used them plenty since then and i can say they worked like a charm... sadily they dont stop said branches entering the nostril or mouth...

strummer
8th July 2005, 16:11
You haven't really answered any of the questions.

You've been issued some of the equipment and "acquired" the rest. What about everyone else? Have they not being issued with basic field gear? Do they have to "acquire" some basic gear too? What does "acquire" mean? Beg? Borrow? Steal? Buy with their own money?

Do you disallow members who haven't been issued with all the required equipment from attending official exercises? If so, why aren't your unit leadership (NCO's and Officers) working on getting this equipment as a top priority?

Are you making your junior soldiers spend their own money on equipment that should be issued to them in the first placed? Forcing them to be "gear-queers" or finding another unit for themselves?

"Acquire gear or go home"....a new low for the FCA, eh?

I thought you were undertaking some sort of commissioning program. My mistake.


Later.

ex pat 007
8th July 2005, 16:30
You will find many members of the US armed forces (myself included) purchase non issue kit and its SOP in many units to equipped with all sorts of non issue. From Corcoran jump boots in the Airborne,Ranger/SF communities ( for ceremonial wear) to cleaning kits and gerbers. Not to mind camel backs before they were on issue.

strummer
8th July 2005, 16:37
I have no problem with guys supplementing their issue gear with non-standard stuff. In fact i haven't come across a unit that doesn't do it. But I do have a huge problem with a chain of command that requires its soldiers to privately purchase gear when this very same stuff should be on issue.

Kermit states that a training course had a packing list of official issue gear. His unit is not issuing this equipment. So, therefore, only those who go out and buy it with their own money, or "acquire" it, get to go on the exercise. All very fine for an NCO or Officer whose been around for a while. But what about the junior enlisted?

Great way to maintain retention.!!!!

BTW, Kermit, you still haven't directly answered most of the questions. Smartass quips don't count. God help your soldiers !!!


Later.

morpheus
8th July 2005, 16:57
If we all rush out and blow what little spare cash we have, we will NEVER get into a situation where the RDF or the DOD collectively decide that there is a requirement to issue gear. They will simply leave it up to us to incur their costs as we are obviously willing to "equip" ourselves.

My latest "Acquired" equipment includes a poncho, sleeping bag, tent pegs, bunji's, insect repellent and a mosi net, and none of this was issued, i DOUBT i wouldve gotten a sleeping system or poncho, but i am as much to blame for this situation as other gear queers, its now the expected response in the RDF that your wallet issues you.

I have so far still refused to buy op boots and tell anyone that comments on the state of my parade boots that they are also my op boots.

HavocIRL
8th July 2005, 18:42
A scrim net wrapped around the head and eyes gives some protection but removes some visibility.

Bam Bam
8th July 2005, 19:04
Not if the branch goes straight into your eye. a net over your face to protect you is a bad idea.

Eddie Dillon
8th July 2005, 19:10
Most surplus gear is quite expensive and considering that most 2/3 stars are students or in their early 20s, well buying all that gear isn't an option. I've never been issued with anything other than a uniform and that goes for most others I know so to 'acquire' any of the required gear would be out of the question short of buying it.

If you'd care to suggesst some acquiring tips though Kermit, I'm always listening.......

Goldie fish
8th July 2005, 19:32
The IMO store sells ESS ICE eyewear. Ideal for errant brambles...

Bam Bam
8th July 2005, 22:47
And remember aquiring kit off others soldiers is not the solution, because you are then leaving him under equipped.

As has been said before someone must first die or be seriously injured before the problem is addressed.

HavocIRL
9th July 2005, 00:51
Volunteers anyone?

FMolloy
9th July 2005, 01:15
all the standard cse last year had safety glasses care of one of the students... even got me a set of him...

ive used them plenty since then and i can say they worked like a charm... sadily they dont stop said branches entering the nostril or mouth...

It was 2003 then, I was doing admin on the course at the time.

As for the issue of kit, that same standard's course were issued full CEMO, helmets and sleeping systems for the duration. Things are getting better, but there's a good way to go yet.

morpheus
11th July 2005, 09:38
I have so far still refused to buy op boots and tell anyone that comments on the state of my parade boots that they are also my op boots.

:rolleyes:

This weekend i became a "Guuci-Queer". I "accquired" a pair of Magnum Elites as an early birthday present from my better half.

As a matter of interest, on average what "should" i have expected to pay for them?

DeV
11th July 2005, 13:17
What generation?

2nd at least

Laoch
12th November 2005, 22:15
Instead of webbing, we use an FFR, items to carry DC to 220V Invertor, Equip TAMs, Flask, CW Key and a 3/4 ton trailer with cooking equipment, sleeping equipment and equipment spares.

HavocIRL
13th November 2005, 14:41
Instead of webbing, we use an FFR, items to carry DC to 220V Invertor, Equip TAMs, Flask, CW Key and a 3/4 ton trailer with cooking equipment, sleeping equipment and equipment spares.


Wuss sigs b*stard. Stick it all in your bergen, get a boiled sweet in you and crack on.

apod
13th November 2005, 15:01
Instead of webbing, we use an FFR, items to carry DC to 220V Invertor, Equip TAMs, Flask, CW Key and a 3/4 ton trailer with cooking equipment, sleeping equipment and equipment spares.


REMF,REMF,REMF. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Itchy
9th June 2006, 00:04
Bump... Again the list comes in handy, great stuff...

ODIN
9th June 2006, 09:22
If people want it, i have a scanned PDF doc of the Ranger Kit List that appeared in connect ages ago that I can post up

Bam Bam
9th June 2006, 18:18
couldn't hurt.

X-RayOne
10th June 2006, 14:29
fire away, interesting to see how different it is to the lists printed before for sargeants courses, rdf webbing, etc.

although, bearing in mind there are always changes to these lists from time to time.

fiannoglach
10th June 2006, 15:13
Think about dividing your kit into 3 groups or lines:

1st Line - Survive and fight (Body/Smock)
2nd Line - Fight (CEFO/Vest)
3rd Line - Mission and Welfare

1st Line: On your body, in your pockets/ smock.
Survival Tin
Map (Unmarked, Waterproofed) No need for map case
FFD x2
Toilet paper - Mucho Important!
Spoon (Plastic)
Survival Blanket
Notebook and pencils
ID card/ Discs
Cam cream
Lighter/ matches

2nd Line: CEFO/ Vest/ Chest
Ammo - Unit SOP's apply
Food - 24 hrs emergency, metal mug, hexitabs, 2 water bottles
Equipment - FAK, Small binos, miniflares, Wpn cleaning kit, torch, Insect rep
toothbrush

3rd Line: Daysack/Pack
Daysack - Mission Essential, Comms, NVE, Waterproofs, Warm Top/
Glove/Hat
Pack - Sleeping bag/Bivi bag/Kip mat
Extra rations/Platypus
Hygiene - Toothpaste, babywipes
Spare socks

Remember keep it simple - it's easy to fill up the pack with non essential crap that you will never use, and it will weigh a ton before you add ammo, batteries, NVE, Optics etc.
Also don't max out on the spare clothing - One pair of boots, a pair of socks will last for 3-4 days easy, same for jock and tshirts. Better still, bin the jocks and wear cycling shorts. Bin the tshirts and wear a thermal top.
Consider bringing sandwiches for your 1st 24 hrs on the ground, means you don't have to cook or pull shit out of the pack. Strip down your ration packs and get rid of all the wrappings. Plan how many meals? How many tea bags, sugar, creamers? Put your alcohol wipes into your pack of tissues for after you have a crap - remember the fecal oral route for infection. Hexi's mean that there's no empty containers to dispose of or carry out.
Hydrate all the time, check your piss, if it's yellow - you're dehydrated.
Make sure all your equipment is waterproofed, on average in Europe, we hit a water obstacle every 7 K, if it gets wet, you're miserable from the start!!
TAM's, sentry rosters, AmmoCas states are a double edged dagger. Bringing documents into the field means you run the risk of losing them (We don't do capture!), so burn and destroy once you leave a location.
Also consider the impact a section leaves behind, waste poorly buried, cut branches, paracord left on trees, follow up by the enemy is a real possibility, don't make their job any easier.
Hope this helps.............OSOK

FMolloy
11th June 2006, 12:07
If people want it, i have a scanned PDF doc of the Ranger Kit List that appeared in connect ages ago that I can post up

Is it the same as the one I posted two pages ago?

Parts
14th June 2006, 11:28
Anyone thinking about adding to this: see Fiann&#243;glach's post above, and leave it at that. No, you don't need a pair of sox and jox for each occasion; yes your nether regions will smell like crap wrapped in a turd after a week in cycling shorts: tough, boohoo; no you don't need the 50 teabags, creamers and cappucinos that the ration pack provides you with for each day on the ground.
The definitive guide, end of story.

ZULU
28th August 2007, 15:01
{MOD: Moved from Are we getting overloaded thread}

I use a cheap waterbottle holder (kinda like a snug pocket) with 3 resp pouches. All I have in them is small cleaning kit, 2 x field dressing and E-Tool. The rest of the pouches are empty. I try and get away without wearing a daysack as much as possible so I use the extra pouch on the PLCE. Makes for much more manuverability and agility as well as eliminating any difficulties going prone. The only time I've used wet gear was the jacket on the C&S during the PSO. For all the tactical training I've done its been just shirt in summer, smock in winter.

concussion
28th August 2007, 15:31
No smock in the summer? Lucky bugger

Docman
28th August 2007, 16:15
On another note have any of you folk heard anything more about the issue of plce to the reserve?I believe it is due to happen after we get the iplcs.
It won't be an issue item. My understanding is that each Reserve Battalion will receive enough PLCE to equip a coy.This means that it will prob be issued out to each coy for pool issue.
Then again, it may be kept in Bn stores.

apod
28th August 2007, 16:39
I use a cheap waterbottle holder (kinda like a snug pocket) with 3 resp pouches. All I have in them is small cleaning kit, 2 x field dressing and E-Tool. The rest of the pouches are empty. I try and get away without wearing a daysack as much as possible so I use the extra pouch on the PLCE. Makes for much more manuverability and agility as well as eliminating any difficulties going prone. The only time I've used wet gear was the jacket on the C&S during the PSO. For all the tactical training I've done its been just shirt in summer, smock in winter.

Ok i assume you are still a private cos if you were an nco you would need to wear a smock to carry your field admin.Agreed.wet suit pants are only usefull when static as they take too long to put on and you wont have the time in an adv to contact.
Why carry an e-tool on cefo?You dont need it to fight!Yes when consolidating but only if you are staying and digging scrapes,if so whip it out of daysack.
If you carry two field dressing's in cefo then i assume there is a third in the sleeve pocket of your smock?If not put one in as there is a god reason why we all carry it there.I.E so if you get hit i dont have to go rummaging through your kit to find it.You might know where it is ,but when you are going into shock i guarantee you wont be thinking clearly enough to tell me.

Btw they are not respirator pouches.They are utility pouches.The respirator haversack,which was formerly know as a large utility pouch,is the large square pouch with the waist strap.
Can you tell me the occasions that you do carry a daysack?Cos by the sounds of it you dont carry ANY kit to sustain yourself.Apologies if i am taking you up wrong.

ZULU
28th August 2007, 18:47
Ok i assume you are still a private cos if you were an nco you would need to wear a smock to carry your field admin.

Why? I have a compass, map, Stabilo pens, pencil, eraser, W/p notebook, custom TAM camo cream in shirt and trousers. What more do you want/need?

Few other items that might find their way into webbing are head torch, multitool, AAA and AA batteries, Black tape, spare socks, toilet paper.

I always carry my Bowie Knife if not given bayonet.

Good tip: 6 x large cable ties into the helmet under the cover with the clasp ends coming out by the ties. Nice and neat and out of the way yet easily reached if needed.

Might carry monocular but rarely have used it when I do. Would put in Dextros glucose tablets and a museli bar in shirt too.

All the above can be worn without a smock.


Don't usually carry e-tool but it has been used everytime with training with the Int Res.


If you carry two field dressing's in cefo then i assume there is a third in the sleeve pocket of your smock?

You assume correctly. Although if not wearing smock, its taped to webbing.


Btw they are not respirator pouches.They are utility pouches.The respirator haversack,which was formerly know as a large utility pouch,is the large square pouch with the waist strap.

Why do they have RESPIRATOR printed under the lids of them so?


Can you tell me the occasions that you do carry a daysack?

When I'm ordered to. Or if we're going to stop for extended time. but usually those times you have a full cemo. One rocket pouch is more than enough, if I do have to carry daysack, there might be one litre of water in it and the rest is filled with air! Different case for FIBUA though when your carrying all manner of gear.

apod
29th August 2007, 07:20
Why? I have a compass, map, Stabilo pens, pencil, eraser, W/p notebook, custom TAM camo cream in shirt and trousers. What more do you want/need?

Few other items that might find their way into webbing are head torch, multitool, AAA and AA batteries, Black tape, spare socks, toilet paper.

I always carry my Bowie Knife if not given bayonet.

Good tip: 6 x large cable ties into the helmet under the cover with the clasp ends coming out by the ties. Nice and neat and out of the way yet easily reached if needed.

Might carry monocular but rarely have used it when I do. Would put in Dextros glucose tablets and a museli bar in shirt too.

All the above can be worn without a smock.


Don't usually carry e-tool but it has been used everytime with training with the Int Res.



You assume correctly. Although if not wearing smock, its taped to webbing.



Why do they have RESPIRATOR printed under the lids of them so?



When I'm ordered to. Or if we're going to stop for extended time. but usually those times you have a full cemo. One rocket pouch is more than enough, if I do have to carry daysack, there might be one litre of water in it and the rest is filled with air! Different case for FIBUA though when your carrying all manner of gear.

I have never in all my years seen respirator printed under the lids of those pouches.on the back maybe.Reason being because when they were first bought thats what they carried.Until we realised you couldnt store a respirator with mounted canister in it.Be in time ,mask in nine.We use the large havesack now,which is what it should allways have been.

Ok,so you have all the field admin.Now can you tell me how you carry all that in two small shirt pockets?I know i cant.Issue tam 2003 takes up alot of room in a smock pocket,wont fit in a shirt.
I am stunned to read what you carry in your cefo.Spare socks and headtorches should be in your daysack.You wont be changing your socks in the middle of a s.i.a so therefore they arent needed in a fighting order!Same with the torch.Multitool is ok along with tape as you may need them for running repairs/jobs.Btys go in daysack.Same with food.
A small bag of jellies in smock pocket is ok though or gum.
Why a bowie knife?Are you gonna be skinning game on patrol?Lose it.I guarantee all it does is make you look like a walt.You will get more use out of your multi tool then you will ever get out that thing.If you need anything bigger you will be issued a bayonet.
Good trick with the cable ties,but thats been around for a few years.
As for only carrying one rocket or full cemo,you have obviously never done a long extended patrol in inclement weather.If all you carry is a bottle of water you would soon become a casualty of the elements and a liability to the rest of the patrol.
Now i havent said all this to belittle you.far from it.Just hoping to open your eyes a little.You are basing what you carry on what you have done up to now.I appreciate that.:biggrin:

ZULU
29th August 2007, 11:11
Ok,so you have all the field admin.Now can you tell me how you carry all that in two small shirt pockets?I know i cant.Issue tam 2003 takes up alot of room in a smock pocket,wont fit in a shirt.

Does this sound familar?


Good point about not allways wearing the smock.you shoul be able to transfer items to your shirt/pants/cefo in hot weather.pm me if you want more hints


I am stunned to read what you carry in your cefo.Spare socks and headtorches should be in your daysack.You wont be changing your socks in the middle of a s.i.a so therefore they arent needed in a fighting order!Same with the torch.

Btys go in daysack.Same with food.
A small bag of jellies in smock pocket is ok though or gum.

Had an incident on a week where my feet got cut to shite so its a personal lesson learned as to why I carry a spare pair of socks in the webbing.
You can fit 8 batteries in the pockets in the lids of the resp pouches along with the tape. The food I carry is little more than a stick of glucose tablets and a nutrigrain equivalent.


Why a bowie knife?Are you gonna be skinning game on patrol?Lose it.I guarantee all it does is make you look like a walt.You will get more use out of your multi tool then you will ever get out that thing.If you need anything bigger you will be issued a bayonet.


I always carry my Bowie Knife if not given bayonet.

concussion
29th August 2007, 13:51
Don't forget model kit, mozzie rep, whistle, prr, spare batteries for sincgar

ZULU
29th August 2007, 16:03
batteries for sincgar

Why everyone in the section need to carry a spare SINCG battery?

concussion
29th August 2007, 16:29
They won't...but its something to be considered.

ZULU
29th August 2007, 16:31
No it isn't. The spare battery goes into the radio pack on the radio mans back. Now back to webbing......:smile:

trellheim
29th August 2007, 16:50
depends on the radio he's carrying if he's taking old manpack on a 24 then there will be a few batteries to carry out in the sections.

concussion
29th August 2007, 17:05
Incidentally, where are 40mm grenades carried?

ZULU
29th August 2007, 17:24
In the new IPLCS that's on supposed to be on issue!! LOL :biggrin: :biggrin:

apod
29th August 2007, 20:06
Does this sound familar?





Had an incident on a week where my feet got cut to shite so its a personal lesson learned as to why I carry a spare pair of socks in the webbing.
You can fit 8 batteries in the pockets in the lids of the resp pouches along with the tape. The food I carry is little more than a stick of glucose tablets and a nutrigrain equivalent.

I am not knocking the idea of carrying spare socks,i do to,but they should be in the daysack not webbing.You dont need em to fight with end of story.
I carry a small bag of aa/aaa btys in the lid pocket of the daysack.You are allways gonna be wearing it if patroling on foot or advancing to contact anyway.
You have me on the shirt thing,but i am a monkeys uncle if you can get four smock pocket loads of field admin into two small shirt pockets.Tardis pockets are they?
You still havent confirmed what you need a bowie knife for.What do you need it for that your multi tool cant do?I remember years ago there was a trend in the fca for lads to wear all kinds of knives on their webbing.It soon stopped after a guy severed his femoral artery when the "survival knife" he was wearing pierced its scabbard and his thigh while doing a section attack.The only reason all those lads were carrying them was to look hard cos they saw arnie and sly doing it in films.
Ask yourself this.How many times do you see Pdf troop going around with bowie knives hanging off em?Answer,never.
As for model kits=bergan or daysack.Mozzie rep and headnet=daysack.
Sincgar btys also go in daysack along with sincgar.If carrying the radio you should allways ditch the metal frame radio carrier.Why carry the extra weight when you can carry the set in a daysack?

fiannoglach
31st August 2007, 20:18
Zulu, how do you get all that stuff into your pockets when you wear armor?

I honestly don't know how you can operate without a daysack, it's easy to look at what you alone carry and then decide to dump. But you need to look at what the section needs, as previously mentioned radios, batteries, Ammunition, NVE, wet gear, food, water. I'm all for dumping daysacks prior to assaulting but advance to contact or pursuit/follow up will dictate the need for a daysack.....

riflemangundy
4th May 2008, 12:46
3572 should work!!!!!!!!!! new to this

Hello Alaska
1st April 2010, 17:14
Anyone got the admin in the field poster for the IPLCS that was in An Cosantoir last year?

Been trying to get my hands on it and can't find it for the life of me.

Truck Driver
1st April 2010, 18:12
Anyone got the admin in the field poster for the IPLCS that was in An Cosantoir last year?

Been trying to get my hands on it and can't find it for the life of me.

Don't remember that, and I have a subscription for the magazine....

Are you sure it was a poster, and not part of the magzine articles ?

Can have a peek at the 2009 magazines later, when I get home....

Hello Alaska
1st April 2010, 18:14
Don't remember that, and I have a subscription for the magazine....

Are you sure it was a poster, and not part of the magzine articles ?

Can have a peek at the 2009 magazines later, when I get home....

Fairly sure it was a poster, think it was the same magazine where they had an article on Selection?

Docman
1st April 2010, 18:30
Anyone got the admin in the field poster for the IPLCS that was in An Cosantoir last year?

Been trying to get my hands on it and can't find it for the life of me.

I have it but it is 1.43 meg. PM me your e-mail address and I'll mail it onto you.

Hello Alaska
1st April 2010, 18:32
I have it but it is 1.43 meg. PM me your e-mail address and I'll mail it onto you.

Wilco, it's much appreciated.

trellheim
1st April 2010, 22:16
Yes. it's the ARW selection issue IIRC . Hardcopy can be found on our Coy Orderly Room wall

SwiftandSure
1st April 2010, 22:18
Is they a soft copy available to download in the public domain?

Laoch
2nd April 2010, 00:22
A couple of things you should not forget:

IDC Insertion Tool
Leather-man
Philips screwdriver
waterproof pair connectors
toothbrush

Truck Driver
2nd April 2010, 07:04
Fairly sure it was a poster, think it was the same magazine where they had an article on Selection?


Yes. it's the ARW selection issue IIRC . Hardcopy can be found on our Coy Orderly Room wall

Ahhh, yes, I remember the one now alright - the guy has two stonking black kitbags
in addition to all the bits he's wearing - and he's suffering from that facial disease
that all members of the Wing featured in the mag have - pixelisation !

Don't think it's fatal, though.... :-D

apod
2nd April 2010, 12:47
It wasnt in the Cosantoir. It was the centrespread of the Connect newsletter.The same poster is currently being distributed to PDF units along with the posters advertising selection course TANGO ONE. BTW while it is a fairly good list generally it is also selection specific.Designed to replacate a given weight for the tests and long range unsupported patrolling.Perhaps not the best packing list for general Infantry work.Having said that we used something similar on the STD NCO course.

CS Gass
2nd April 2010, 16:57
I had a Professor who was a Korean and Vietnam vet, he gave us the DL on what he carried on his person during the Korean War,
I wrote it down so I wouldnt forget anything
Ammo pouches- ammo
Canteen pouch - canteen
Great coat pockets - chocolate bars

and an M1

ZULU
2nd April 2010, 17:10
http://www.military.ie/dfhq/pubrel/publications/3dissue/connect/Connect2006/pageflip.htm

trellheim
2nd April 2010, 17:18
A couple of things you should not forget:

IDC Insertion Tool
Leather-man
Philips screwdriver
waterproof pair connectors
toothbrush

Good Lord, nice to see you again !. STRONGLY recommend anything Laoch says.

Celtic-Warrior
2nd April 2010, 17:34
What are Waterproof Pair Connectors?

CS Gass
2nd April 2010, 17:37
What are Waterproof Pair Connectors?

they keep your testicles dry during river crossings

SwiftandSure
6th April 2010, 14:36
A couple of things you should not forget:

IDC Insertion Tool
Leather-man
Philips screwdriver
waterproof pair connectors
toothbrush

Hi Laoch,

Would this strictly apply to the CIS chaps? Or are there "alternative" uses for the IDC Insertion Tool and waterproof pair connectors in your experience?

trellheim
6th April 2010, 15:07
everyones a radioman at the end of the day.

SwiftandSure
6th April 2010, 15:16
everyones a radioman at the end of the day.

I get that, and I could understand the need for the waterproof pair connectors if you're laying out det cord to a field telephone / sentry position maybe. But the IDC insertion tool has me miffed. Is there a piece of kit the DF use that requires an IDC insertion tool?

Flamingo
6th April 2010, 15:27
Nobody has mentioned Chocolate Hobnobs yet? Essential kit, in my day!

SwiftandSure
6th April 2010, 15:31
Nobody has mentioned Chocolate Hobnobs yet? Essential kit, in my day!

Or Haribo Starmix AKA Morale in a Bag! :biggrin:

CS Gass
6th April 2010, 16:07
Reading over this thread there seems to be an awful of 'just in case' kit being included as standard by many people.

Having always been the guy who brought fcuk all into the field I find this an odd development,

So, I'm raising the question, what are the items of kit that you really really need and would be simply up shit creek and paddleless without,

Lets assume for arguments sake you're making up your loadout to go off to war not to the glen, you've got the uniform you are wearing, your boots, weapon(+bayonet), helmet and CBA, load carrying kit and ammo.
What else should you carry?

I'll start the ball rolling with an incomplete list

Canteen and crusader cup, and spork. this covers dining, do without a stove of whatever sort you like, you will either eat cold rats or get how grub given to you

Cleaning kit

Spare socks

Poncho to cover the need for wetgear and act as your shelter

Torch

What else needs to be included?

The real Jack
6th April 2010, 16:10
Reading over this thread there seems to be an awful of 'just in case' kit being included as standard by many people.

Having always been the guy who brought fcuk all into the field I find this an odd development,

So, I'm raising the question, what are the items of kit that you really really need and would be simply up shit creek and paddleless without,

Lets assume for arguments sake you're making up your loadout to go off to war not to the glen, you've got the uniform you are wearing, your boots, weapon(+bayonet), helmet and CBA, load carrying kit and ammo.
What else should you carry?

I'll start the ball rolling with an incomplete list

Canteen and crusader cup, and spork. this covers dining, do without a stove of whatever sort you like, you will either eat cold rats or get how grub given to you

Cleaning kit

Spare socks

Poncho to cover wetgear and your shelter

Torch

What else needs to be included?
Ditch the canteen, you should have got yourself a camelback/platypus...use normal water bottles for extra water(ie ballygowen bottles)!

Goldie fish
6th April 2010, 16:10
Or Haribo Starmix AKA Morale in a Bag! :biggrin:

The old OG Square pocket combat jacket had a pocket that was perfectly measured to accomodate either a packet of Rolos or Eclairs.
It was too big to hold a biro, and too small for anything else.

ZULU
6th April 2010, 16:41
Ditch the canteen, you should have got yourself a camelback/platypus...use normal water bottles for extra water(ie ballygowen bottles)!

There will be two things left after a nuclear war. Cockroaches and Army plastic canteens.

Never ditch a canteen!

The real Jack
6th April 2010, 16:50
There will be two things left after a nuclear war. Cockroaches and Army plastic canteens.

Never ditch a canteen!

Its not that they wont last its just that they tend to get lost/stolen!

apod
6th April 2010, 17:03
Reading over this thread there seems to be an awful of 'just in case' kit being included as standard by many people.

Having always been the guy who brought fcuk all into the field I find this an odd development,

So, I'm raising the question, what are the items of kit that you really really need and would be simply up shit creek and paddleless without,

Lets assume for arguments sake you're making up your loadout to go off to war not to the glen, you've got the uniform you are wearing, your boots, weapon(+bayonet), helmet and CBA, load carrying kit and ammo.
What else should you carry?

I'll start the ball rolling with an incomplete list

Canteen and crusader cup, and spork. this covers dining, do without a stove of whatever sort you like, you will either eat cold rats or get how grub given to you

Cleaning kit

Spare socks

Poncho to cover wetgear and your shelter

Torch

What else needs to be included?
I devoted a good bit of time to posting a fairly comprehensive packing list/guide to how to admin yourself on the ground in the "Good tips " thread in the Military kit section.Perhaps that would help.Oh and nobody carries a poncho AND rainsuit.With a basha aswell it is overkill and too much weight .Try to use items that do two jobs instead of one.:)

CS Gass
6th April 2010, 17:19
I think you missed what I was getting at, I was trying to provoke a debate on what people really need on the ground. There's a lot of useful kit out there I'm not denying that I just feel that weight often trumps the usefulness of any object.

The real Jack
6th April 2010, 17:24
I think you missed what I was getting at, I was trying to provoke a debate on what people really need on the ground. There's a lot of useful kit out there I'm not denying that I just feel that weight often trumps the usefulness of any object.

Its all been done before!

CS Gass
6th April 2010, 17:28
Lets face it if you read accounts from Vietnam, Korea, World War two etc you'll see how light the guys try to be.

If you take a host of experiences as a general guide,

They ate cold rats in the field, unless they were in a position whereby hot food was supplied or a fire could be made to cook with

You do without hot drinks unless the facility to brew it presented itself, We're not the British Army

You sleep in a hole in the ground with your weapon to keep you warm and maybe a blanket

You dont begin each day with a shower, shave and a nice clean uniform

Once you have, boots, a weapon, ammo and rats you're good to go. I'm not saying I'm some tough guy I just think this is what we should model ourselves off not inspector gadget

Goldie fish
6th April 2010, 17:31
CS Gass. Listen to what people are trying to tell you. There is already a very long and informative thread elsewhere on the site, dealing with exactly this.

CS Gass
6th April 2010, 17:41
I've checked it out, the fact that its long, and 'comprehensive' is pretty much my point

Flamingo
6th April 2010, 18:15
You do without hot drinks unless the facility to brew it presented itself, We're not the British Army



Ohh hark at her! :eek:

CS Gass
6th April 2010, 18:30
in fairness you guys have been sticking kettles into your tanks since the centurion

ZULU
6th April 2010, 18:31
No hot brews eh? Come on up the Galtees for 10 days without a brew and cold rations so.

Flamingo
6th April 2010, 18:40
in fairness you guys have been sticking kettles into your tanks since the centurion was a rank
Fixed that for you! :-D:-D

edited to add: "Any bloody fool can be uncomfortable!" Duke of Wellington, I believe.

Barry
6th April 2010, 19:23
You sleep in a hole in the ground with your weapon to keep you warm and maybe a blanket
Something tells me you've never actually tried this, or if you did you don't remember how cold it was because you got hypothermia and had to be brought to hospital.

Goldie fish
6th April 2010, 19:29
Blanket?

What's a blanket?

CS Gass
6th April 2010, 19:42
Course I've never tried that stuff I already said I didnt, what i was saying is that the minimalist do without soldier is maybe the one troops should try to be rather than the man who carries all sorts of odds and ends just in case

Regarding not using a sleeping bag, In the above mentioned wars, generally troops slept in fighting positions in the field wearing either their poncho or an army blanket if they had one, a sleeping bag wasnt practical as you could be attacked at any time. Yeah they probably froze their balls off but at least they were ready to stand up and fight

I'm not claiming I know it all, I'm merely prompting debate

The real Jack
6th April 2010, 20:02
Course I've never tried that stuff I already said I didnt, what i was saying is that the minimalist do without soldier is maybe the one troops should try to be rather than the man who carries all sorts of odds and ends just in case

Regarding not using a sleeping bag, In the above mentioned wars, generally troops slept in fighting positions in the field wearing either their poncho or an army blanket if they had one, a sleeping bag wasnt practical as you could be attacked at any time. Yeah they probably froze their balls off but at least they were ready to stand up and fight

I'm not claiming I know it all, I'm merely prompting debate

You're not prompting debate your just making stupid statements!

Edit to ad; To be fair if it is warm it is very possible to wear a snugpack instead of using a sleeping bag.

Flamingo
6th April 2010, 20:20
Regarding not using a sleeping bag, In the above mentioned wars, generally troops slept in fighting positions in the field wearing either their poncho or an army blanket if they had one, a sleeping bag wasnt practical as you could be attacked at any time. Yeah they probably froze their balls off but at least they were ready to stand up and fight

Or found dead at their posts when dawn broke.

http://www.gettyimages.co.nz/detail/72431501?language=en-US&location=NZL

http://www.ww2incolor.com/dramatic/frozen_german_soldiers.html

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9906E1D7153EE433A25756C2A9659C946195D6CF

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19391218&id=tMsaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TEwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4996,4897518

Hello Alaska
6th April 2010, 20:29
I had the pleasure of very nearly going down with hypothermia during a ridiculously cold night in the Glen while in a trench and outside of my sleeping bag.

I'll hang onto my sleeping bag thanks very much.

concussion
6th April 2010, 20:32
As Flamingo has pointed out, if you don't have a proper sleeping system a huge amount of your causalties will be due to hypothermia, frostbite and pneumonia.

Likewise if you go to the jungle and don't change your socks and jocks you'll get a lot of troops falling out with rotten feet and crotches.

Good administration is the field is the most basic skill a soldier can have, and properly rotating through dry/wet uniforms, maintaining hygiene and having a proper sleeping system keeps more troops on the ground for operations. Of course, high tempo ops reduce the chances for all this but to dismiss it altogether as being too complicated or 'not hard enough' is foolish.

ZULU
6th April 2010, 20:32
I almost lost the tops off my fingers while working in feb last year. -25 + windchill. I'll keep my gloves and warm clothing thank you very much!

concussion
6th April 2010, 20:35
I had the pleasure of very nearly going down with hypothermia during a ridiculously cold night in the Glen while in a trench and outside of my sleeping bag.

I'll hang onto my sleeping bag thanks very much.

We were in Kilworth on a night when the water froze in our canteens and, upon checking the line, I found a Gunner lying down under his basha in his smock because he 'didn't like sleeping bags' :S Bizarre altogether.

Barry
6th April 2010, 20:39
Equally the comments made about not having warm drinks or food are stupid - when you wake up and you're freezing, a sugary cup of tea and warm bacon and beans can be the difference between being switched on and ready to do your job and having your head dropping and just wanting to be somewhere else. This is particularly true when you're in a defensive position and don't have as much chance to get up and move around.

"Man up" is a phrase best used when you're trying to convince someone to do something stupid (or score someone ugly), not one that should be used when it comes to being well equipped on the ground.

Hello Alaska
6th April 2010, 20:43
We were in Kilworth on a night when the water froze in our canteens and, upon checking the line, I found a Gunner lying down under his basha in his smock because he 'didn't like sleeping bags' :S Bizarre altogether.

In my defence, there was 6 of us in a 3 man trench thanks to another trench flooding and lads being told to just find a trench.

There was no room for sleeping bags, to say it was a tight fit was an understatement. :-D




"Man up" is a phrase best used when you're trying to convince someone to do something stupid (or score someone ugly), not one that should be used when it comes to being well equipped on the ground.

Well said that man.

The real Jack
6th April 2010, 20:59
I spent 2 nights in the glen one summer...wore a snugpack instead off getting into the sleeping bag....and I didn't get hypothermia....(rock the boat - dont rock the boat baby!)

Completely agree about hot drinks.

Buck
6th April 2010, 21:09
i did a cross country nav last year, end of summer, and i fell over quite a bit due to uneven ground, bogholes and heavy load so by the time we got to the forest where we were camping over night my feet were soaked (only had magnum boots), legs were soaked and i did not want to be there. i started a brew but was getting rather frustrated due to cold etc and a sgt saw this, he sent me off to get changed and he got someone to sort my brew and meal, by the time i had the new combats and socks on, i was a different guy, ready for it.

point is, a brew can make the difference.

Flamingo
6th April 2010, 22:07
I remember a "man up to it" exercise in Scotland in October, over the 8 days in the field, we had about 30 guys come down with hypothermia - and we were a medical unit, FFS! We had some PSI's (regular instructors) who were right tools! (pulls up a sandbag) Best of the lot was the location they reccied for us, put a Dressing Station Section at ref: so and so beside a loch. They reccied it at low tide, we arrived & set up after dark at low tide, at about 3.30 the guy on stag noticed the water was about 3 foot from the 12x12 and advancing! Very quick bug-out & questions asked next day!!!!

CS Gass
6th April 2010, 22:08
Agreed that a hot drink is the bizz when you're stuck out in the glen on a cold night, though admittedly I've been cold in the glen but nothing near what has been said above.

However, I'm still left wondering would I want my hot cup of joe if I knew it'd mean an arty round landed in my lap or would I even get a chance to prepare something that doesnt immediately increase my chance of fighting?

I think we've established a sleeping bag is worth the bulk, a hexi stove is probably worth it too, what about the other stuff that makes up the mountain of kit that fills pockets and CEFO....

concussion
6th April 2010, 22:36
I wouldn't consider one pouch of my CEFO, a 2 kilos in my daysack and half my CEMO to be excessive to be able to live comfortably on the ground for extended periods.

ZULU
6th April 2010, 22:37
I suggest you read Major Nortons book - Force Recon Diary 1969 for some info on what you seem to be suggesting.

Even these Recce troops had a hot brew in the jungle.

Conscript armies back in the day had no choice but to go without as the equipment simply wasn't there.

We have evolved and learned from those who paid in blood, sweat and tears what works and what doesn't.

Sleeping bag and rain gear - helps reduce risk of hypothermia
High calorie food - helps maintain increased intensity operations by fuelling the body
Survival tin - helps reduce the risk of capture/death if put into survival position
(Unscathed - by Major Phil Ashbey is a good read on this)

TAMs - to help remind the soldier of the complex systems required to conduct multispectrum combined arms operations

Etc
etc
etc

SwiftandSure
6th April 2010, 23:34
I'm a big fan of the Jetboil instead of hexi myself. Boil a brew up in 2 mins, Jobzagoodun! Yes it's a bit bulky, but worth it.

As for what to carry in CEFO. Ammo, Pyro, Weapon cleaning kit, mission essential equipment, E-rats and water. Luxuries such as a jetboil can go in the daysack which can be discarded if necessary.

Don't rely on just one camelbak/platypus bladder to hold all your water either. Always carry a back up bottle in your daysack, even if its only 0.5ltr.

I tried sleeping in just my snugpak up the mountains. I woke up in the middle of the night freezing my tits off wishing I had just got in my gonk bag!

I personnally find the whole 'what to carry into a harbour area' a bit outdated to be fair. In today's theatre of operations, troops are based in FOBs from platoon formations upwards with crew mounted weapons and fields of fire and observation that reach out over a kilometer in every direction. I've read about the US army even having refrigerated containers, recreation areas, gyms and running tracks in their FOBs. Patrols are then deployed from these FOBs carrying what they need to conduct the mission, nothing else.
Going out on long range foot patrols with heavily laden bergans, setting up harbour areas is almost a thing of the past aside from recce elements and SF.

If there was a threat of an arty strike, as you put it CS, then making a brew would be the least of my worries. With thermal imaging and night vision available to any Tom, Dick and Harry, you'll be be discovered long before you even contemplate making a brew. And if you're unfortunate enough to have an enemy with arty support, then he'll probably have EW units to triangulate your radio transmssions or UAVs also which will undoubtedly spot the thermal signature of the 30 man triangle in the middle of the woods AKA your harbour area. So put the kettle on sunshine, no point dying cold and parched ;)

Flamingo
7th April 2010, 00:08
As regards the "just in case" kit, I remember many years ago packing my kit, and the then girlfriend saying "Do you really need all that?", to which I replied "No, I only need half of it, but I don't know which half I won't need until I'm there!".

concussion
7th April 2010, 00:11
Well done sir! :biggrin:

Goldie fish
7th April 2010, 00:14
Better to have and not need than need and not have.

ZULU
7th April 2010, 00:20
Great post swift and sure!

Godfather
7th April 2010, 01:23
Better to have and not need than need and not have.

Another one I always live by is "its better to be looking at it than looking for it!"

I found out in the Glen last year that the pocket on the upper left arm of the smock perfectly accomadates a Nutri-grain and a Yorkie Bar!

I also never go out on the ground without tea-bags,little packets of sugar and the most important item for me is headache tablets. Nothing worse than having to perform a section attack with a splitting headache.

And sandwich bags are fantastic,keep everything dry,from socks to jocks,tea-bags to biscuits.

To save weight I also managed to get myself a Craghopper fleece for £15,its much lighter and much more comfortable than the Norgie without sacrificing any heat. One of my better buys I must say.

And by-jesus,I always bring extra socks,wet feet are the worst thing to be having to work in.

apod
7th April 2010, 21:17
I've checked it out, the fact that its long, and 'comprehensive' is pretty much my point

Mate ,that list along with another one posted by Fianjnoglach were posted by serving professional soldiers who have spent fair amount of time on the ground.Perhaps you shouldnt be so quick to dismiss the advice?Also all the items i listed i use. Seasoned Infantry soldiers in the PDF in my experience wont carry ANYTHING they dont need as it is all weight.Try carrying a load of junk around with you that you MAY use as opposed to WILL use then add in CBA,Helmet weapon,full first line ammo,comms,NVE etc....You will soon learn to prioritise.On exercise in Ireland in winter you WILL need your warm kit.You WILL need your sleeping system.You WILL need your waterproofs.Otherwise you WILL be a casualty fairly fast.

Oh and too respond to that post about FOB's and the current trend for not carrying large Bergens.In armys with large armoured fleets like the BA or US forces that might wash.Overseas we use our limited fleet of APC's.Here we have limited transport that if the balloon went up would be wiped out in the first strike.We train humping packs over hills 'cos that is what we would be back too.Guerilla warfare.On foot.

trellheim
7th April 2010, 21:42
Jeezus do not feed the trolls. What is it with everyone recently, is it the water or something ?

Flamingo
7th April 2010, 21:48
On reading APOD's post, I'm reminded of something.

All right, I know it's 25 years ago before anybody says, but I recall hearing a story about a Royal Marine being debriefed after a yomp across Dartmoor, and saying "In this day and age, with APC's etc, why are we training to walk with heavy kit". Two months later, he was walking across the Falklands carrying a large bergen as all the transport helicopters had gone to the bottom of the South Atlantic. The officer who he had passed comment to reminded him of his question a few months earlier. His reply was not recorded.

SwiftandSure
8th April 2010, 00:02
Oh and too respond to that post about FOB's and the current trend for not carrying large Bergens.In armys with large armoured fleets like the BA or US forces that might wash.Overseas we use our limited fleet of APC's.Here we have limited transport that if the balloon went up would be wiped out in the first strike.We train humping packs over hills 'cos that is what we would be back too.Guerilla warfare.On foot.

Apod, I want to be careful in my reply here as I don't want to be seen as dismissing your experience, I gather you're a seasoned soldier, and I respect your input. I would however disagree the "humping over the hills" practice for defending the nation in the event of war/invasion.

From the invasion of Iraq, not much attention is paid to the guys who ran to the hills or dug themselves into rural areas; why? Because if they weren't taken out by CAS, they were rolled over by MBT/APCs, and barely merited mention in after action reports. Where the coalition faced problems was in the cities. Fallujah, Ramadi, Najaf to name a few were where the insurgency and guerilla warfare was most successful. The only way to out-fox a superior aggressor is through light fast-paced manoeuvre warfare in build up areas. From the battle of Thermopylae, to Agincourt, to Fallujah, small light forces operating in confined chosen ground have had the advantage when fighting superior numbers and better equipped forces.

By 'humping packs over the hills" you'll be an easy target by today's technology which is specifically designed to engage you in such an open environment. Flamingo mentioned the Falklands, well if there were a Falklands War 2, it would be a different battle altogether from the 1980s. With the CAS available, cruise missiles, MLRS, IMS, UAV, satellite imaging, the odds of survival are stacked against you if you're forced to slowly hump to battle, again manoeuvre warfare is key. I recall being taught that as a signaller, from the moment I pressed the pressel on my headset, my life expectancy could be as short as 3 minutes. As that's the time it would take for an EW unit to triangulate me, relay my coordinates to a self propelled artillery unit before the first shots were fired. Needless to say, my trade training and working unit exercises were spent setting up and crashing out on a regular basis as your position being compromised is all too easily achieved these days.

If the balloon went up and I had to chance to draw out my Steyr and ammo before the armoury got blown up, I would be focked if I'm running to the hills where I will no doubt be dead within days. I'd rather take my chances in my home town, where I know the ground and the people; after all, it's the people we should be trying to defend.

My point being (which I've avocated in other threads) is that we should focus training on DIBUA and what equipment is necessary for such operations. Humping with packs is still necessary training, but it is an outdated solution in today's theatre of operations and completely inappropriate for the defence of the nation which is supposed to be our bread and butter as we, the RDF at least, have little else to do.

Flamingo
8th April 2010, 11:36
Fair enough, but my point was that the ability to hump to battle should not be thrown away, you never know when the skills may be needed.

trellheim
8th April 2010, 11:46
Swift and Sure, excellent post.

We've trained in DIBUA in the RDF, just not many of us and it's not on many syllabuses. I do take Apods point as well. What is our future battlefield which ones should we be training on .

But if you all read back through the Good Kit you are all not far off each other. Pack light and carry what you need;

My own [ RDF experience ] was that as soon as you've everything nice and snug the platoon Sgt gives you a ladder and a sandbag of ammo plus 2 extra jobs that will involve carrying stuff.

SwiftandSure
8th April 2010, 11:53
Fair enough, but my point was that the ability to hump to battle should not be thrown away, you never know when the skills may be needed.

Fully agree, and I would encourage training that develops the stamina and endurance needed to perform such feats as seen in the Falklands. But I would consider it more associated to physical training, rather than tactical training.
And seeing as a majority of hotspots in the world are in hot climates be it desert or tropical, then the likelyhood of being physically capable to deploy to theatre, acclimatise quickly and operate to the same standard that we do in Ireland, is unlikely and irresponsible.

trellheim
8th April 2010, 11:54
Everyone trains to fight the last war; where next ?

CS Gass
8th April 2010, 11:57
Who knows, but to paraphrase Einstein, we'll be filling our smocks and webbing with sticks and stones :)

SwiftandSure
8th April 2010, 12:02
My own [ RDF experience ] was that as soon as you've everything nice and snug the platoon Sgt gives you a ladder and a sandbag of ammo plus 2 extra jobs that will involve carrying stuff.

Thanks for reminding me, one tip for load bearing also is that if you haven't got sapce in your CEFO (webbing+daysack) after you've packed it with your personal kit. Stay in the habit of carrying at least 2x utility straps for strapping additional section/pln equipment to your CEFO. I made my own up, rather than buying military spec ones, using webbing straps bought from Homebase, and quick release clips which I cut off an old bag.

If that's a repost, apologies, I haven't checked the other kit lists, but I'm sure they'd already cover that.

trellheim
8th April 2010, 12:13
Who knows, but to paraphrase Einstein, we'll be filling our smocks and webbing with sticks and stones

No, that was the one after the next one.

CS Gass
8th April 2010, 12:50
is the next one not happening now?

DeV
8th April 2010, 17:49
Oh and too respond to that post about FOB's and the current trend for not carrying large Bergens.In armys with large armoured fleets like the BA or US forces that might wash.Overseas we use our limited fleet of APC's.Here we have limited transport that if the balloon went up would be wiped out in the first strike.We train humping packs over hills 'cos that is what we would be back too.Guerilla warfare.On foot.

Exactly.... or the infantry have dismounted from the APC and put in their attack. The APCs are coming up so the infantry can continue..... suddenly a squadron ofenemy attack helicopters with ATGMs turns up. Anyone the number for a taxi?


Apod, I want to be careful in my reply here as I don't want to be seen as dismissing your experience, I gather you're a seasoned soldier, and I respect your input. I would however disagree the "humping over the hills" practice for defending the nation in the event of war/invasion.

From the invasion of Iraq, not much attention is paid to the guys who ran to the hills or dug themselves into rural areas; why? Because if they weren't taken out by CAS, they were rolled over by MBT/APCs, and barely merited mention in after action reports. Where the coalition faced problems was in the cities. Fallujah, Ramadi, Najaf to name a few were where the insurgency and guerilla warfare was most successful. The only way to out-fox a superior aggressor is through light fast-paced manoeuvre warfare in build up areas. From the battle of Thermopylae, to Agincourt, to Fallujah, small light forces operating in confined chosen ground have had the advantage when fighting superior numbers and better equipped forces.

By 'humping packs over the hills" you'll be an easy target by today's technology which is specifically designed to engage you in such an open environment. Flamingo mentioned the Falklands, well if there were a Falklands War 2, it would be a different battle altogether from the 1980s. With the CAS available, cruise missiles, MLRS, IMS, UAV, satellite imaging, the odds of survival are stacked against you if you're forced to slowly hump to battle, again manoeuvre warfare is key. I recall being taught that as a signaller, from the moment I pressed the pressel on my headset, my life expectancy could be as short as 3 minutes. As that's the time it would take for an EW unit to triangulate me, relay my coordinates to a self propelled artillery unit before the first shots were fired. Needless to say, my trade training and working unit exercises were spent setting up and crashing out on a regular basis as your position being compromised is all too easily achieved these days.

If the balloon went up and I had to chance to draw out my Steyr and ammo before the armoury got blown up, I would be focked if I'm running to the hills where I will no doubt be dead within days. I'd rather take my chances in my home town, where I know the ground and the people; after all, it's the people we should be trying to defend.

My point being (which I've avocated in other threads) is that we should focus training on DIBUA and what equipment is necessary for such operations. Humping with packs is still necessary training, but it is an outdated solution in today's theatre of operations and completely inappropriate for the defence of the nation which is supposed to be our bread and butter as we, the RDF at least, have little else to do.

DIBUA and training in fields, forests etc. A fair percentage of Ireland would be unsuitable for AFVs due to their size, weight & ability to cross some types of ground.

Your right on some points but the terrain in Iraq is extremely different to that found in Ireland, there are still a lot of places where the likes of AFVs will be of no use to you.

With regard to you point about the Falklands that is only true, firstly if they are available (eg not all in Afghanistan), secondly that you can get them there (ie the ships are available firstly and secondly make it to shore) and finally they can cope with the terrain.



Fully agree, and I would encourage training that develops the stamina and endurance needed to perform such feats as seen in the Falklands. But I would consider it more associated to physical training, rather than tactical training.
And seeing as a majority of hotspots in the world are in hot climates be it desert or tropical, then the likelyhood of being physically capable to deploy to theatre, acclimatise quickly and operate to the same standard that we do in Ireland, is unlikely and irresponsible.

There is a huge difference between fitness and combat fitness!!

Goldie fish
8th April 2010, 17:59
The Last white paper identified a deficiency in DF training, in that we lack a large open area in which to do large scale mechanised infantry training. Consider the Glen, the road network in the area either interacts with the public road network, or is forestry track, unlike anything experienced in "real world".

But it all comes down to "what are you training for?" Is it defence of our own nation against attack from internal or external forces, or is it participation in overseas peace support operations? Is training for one, and equipment carried for one, any use when training for the other?

Is what you carry on the ground when engaged in security at Shannon, or on the border in any way related to what you would carry when you are on the ground in Kosovo? Can you use a "one size fits all" method when it comes to load carried?

DeV
8th April 2010, 18:11
The Last white paper identified a deficiency in DF training, in that we lack a large open area in which to do large scale mechanised infantry training. Consider the Glen, the road network in the area either interacts with the public road network, or is forestry track, unlike anything experienced in "real world".


As you say it depends on what you are training for.... Ireland isn't suitable for large scale tank/AFV engagements by battalion plus sized formations, due to a lack of large open areas without mountains, forests, wide fast flowing rivers, urban areas and other obstacles. Hence it wouldn't be a good idea for any one intend on invading Ireland to bring them to the party!

Goldie fish
8th April 2010, 18:13
So how then do you accurately train to operate with said vehicles in Chad, Somalia, Eritrea etc?

apod
8th April 2010, 18:55
Soory lads i dont have time to answer most of the posts here tonight as i am stuck for time.I will try and reply tommorow.:cool:

DeV
8th April 2010, 19:28
So how then do you accurately train to operate with said vehicles in Chad, Somalia, Eritrea etc?

With difficult being that the main training areas are Kilworth and the Glen (and lack desert).

Bravo20
8th April 2010, 20:01
My own [ RDF experience ] was that as soon as you've everything nice and snug the platoon Sgt gives you a ladder and a sandbag of ammo plus 2 extra jobs that will involve carrying stuff.


Oh...do I remember that ladder:biggrin: I still don't know how the pair of us got under that trip wire without setting it off, carrying all our kit, the ladder, a mousehole charge and a sandbag of smoke grenades. Still we did get into shit for ditching that ladder.

Flamingo
8th April 2010, 20:16
So how then do you accurately train to operate with said vehicles in Chad, Somalia, Eritrea etc?
Gormanston Strand at low tide! :-D

SwiftandSure
8th April 2010, 21:16
Exactly.... or the infantry have dismounted from the APC and put in their attack. The APCs are coming up so the infantry can continue..... suddenly a squadron ofenemy attack helicopters with ATGMs turns up. Anyone the number for a taxi?

DEV, I see where you're coming from, but I feel you've misunderstood my point. If you're at the forward edge of battle in an APC and then you dismount, the likelihood is that you will not be carrying your bergan with sleeping system, 3 day rations, etc etc. So keeping within the context of the thread, you'll be carrying what you need to fight, and only that. Your bergan will either be strapped to the APC, or left wherever it is you came from.

Furthermore, the point made that a lack of transport will be why we train to tactically advance to battle on foot, heavily laden with bergans is a worrying prospect. As any such infiltration will be for a suicide mission. If you haven't the logistics to get in, then it's unlikely that you can logistically support an extraction in the event of mission failure.

Would you be happy knowing that after 4-5 days of tabbing to the FEBA, that if it all went tits up, you're on your own with nothing more than what you're carrying on you? SF and Recce types get E&E training for that type of scenario, we don't and a Bn/Coy sized E&E would basically be a turkey shoot for the enemy.


DIBUA and training in fields, forests etc. A fair percentage of Ireland would be unsuitable for AFVs due to their size, weight & ability to cross some types of ground.

Your right on some points but the terrain in Iraq is extremely different to that found in Ireland, there are still a lot of places where the likes of AFVs will be of no use to you.

Speaking within the context of a hypothetical scenario whereby Ireland is occupied by a modern enemy army; it would be logical to assume that in order to successfully occupy this country, three things would be essential from a military viewpoint, uparmoured wheeled vehicles with crew mounted weaponary (eg UAH, RG32 etc), CAS, and masses of infantry. APODs, SPODs and MSRs could be taken and later defended with heavy armour, but in the villages, towns and cities, the armour profile would have to be lower for the sake of mobility.

Paving the way for invasion would be the destruction of all military installations prior to invasion, (thanks google for providing that intel :-D) so for the purpose of this hypothetical exercise, we'll assume that political tensions between Ireland and it's enemy prompted the likes of the FLR, RDF, PDF to draw arms in advance of the invasion.

So there we are, a country of 4 million people, with an armed DF of no more than 20,000 (being very generous). The enemy would number in the hundred thousands if they're planning on being an occupation force.

If we were to consolidate/hide in the hills, we may well be temporarily out of reach of the enemy, but we would a) have lost key ground in the cities b) lost the faith of the public c) given the enemy opportunity to establish defences in the built up areas which would all but deny it to us and d) made ourselves an obvious target for any aerial surveillance.

By defending the cities, you aim to deny the enemy not only ground, but the public/media victory that accompanies today's offensives. CNN would love to run the story of "3 months on and they still haven't taken Dublin and Cork". One well placed, well trained Platoon could hold up a Bn advance in a built up area with the right deployment of defences, again thinking of the lessons learned from as far back as Thermopylae and Agincourt. You don't need to be able to destroy tanks, because as you stated, Ireland isn't good tank country anyway, but if you consistantly kill enough infantry in one place, the crippling morale shockwave would filter back down the line.

OBUA, ambush and counter-ambush drills, anti-air tactics, anti-light armour tactics, counter-EW measures, CQB, IED, counter-aerial surveillance training etc should all form the basis of the type of manoeuvre guerilla warfare that we should be trained for when it comes to defending the nation.
And with all that aforementioned training, and again trying badly to keep within the context of the thread, it will be imperative that you pack light, and pack only what you need to fight, feed and hydrate.
In fairness, in the hypothetical scenario I just described, the likelihood is that you'll be wearing civvies and chest rig. :biggrin:


With regard to you point about the Falklands that is only true, firstly if they are available (eg not all in Afghanistan), secondly that you can get them there (ie the ships are available firstly and secondly make it to shore) and finally they can cope with the terrain.

I would imagine that if Argentina were mad enough to have another go at the Falklands, aside from whatever forces are on the islands, there's enough early warning sensors and remotely fired weapons systems there to take out the D-Day armada. Again, a sign of the times......


There is a huge difference between fitness and combat fitness!!

Oh I know that, which is why I'd encourage battle PT, my point was that that is where "humping" should be confined to, BPT and not tactics.

CS Gass
9th April 2010, 11:09
Good post!

trellheim
9th April 2010, 11:37
You see. It is possible to have intelligent discussions on this forum. I was losing hope for a while.

Truck Driver
9th April 2010, 22:25
As you say it depends on what you are training for.... Ireland isn't suitable for large scale tank/AFV engagements by battalion plus sized formations, due to a lack of large open areas without mountains, forests, wide fast flowing rivers, urban areas and other obstacles. Hence it wouldn't be a good idea for any one intend on invading Ireland to bring them to the party!

In fairness, Dev, it's not like we have the variety of terrain and weather conditions
that the US, for instance, has, in order to be able to train for EVERY eventuality


Oh...do I remember that ladder:biggrin: I still don't know how the pair of us got under that trip wire without setting it off, carrying all our kit, the ladder, a mousehole charge and a sandbag of smoke grenades. Still we did get into shit for ditching that ladder

Yeh .... AND? That was only a good CQMS doing his job properly, obviously !!!

:-D


In fairness, in the hypothetical scenario I just described, the likelihood is that you'll be wearing civvies and chest rig. :biggrin:....

A tactic which would result in you being shot as an irregular.... :- (

SwiftandSure
9th April 2010, 23:05
A tactic which would result in you being shot as an irregular.... :- (

Well I guessed that in that scenario you're being shot at anyway; at least make them think twice before pulling the trigger. :tongue:
Woodland camo is no good in innercity Dublin anyhow. :biggrin:

Besides, if you got captured, the worst you can expect is a good walloping with a welly :-D

concussion
10th April 2010, 00:05
Great post :-D

apod
10th April 2010, 11:23
Some good posts on this subject and as TH has said its good to see a bit of mature debate.
In my experience and has been said before.All Armies train to fight the last war.Why does the DF still insist on training to dig trenches and hold area against an armoured enemy when in all likelihood we would be carpet bombed or gassed out of it in 24 hours:eek:
While i fully subscribe to the pack as light as you can doctrine,even that has limits.We still need to be able to sustain ourselves and survive the elements.Logistics in the DF has come along way during my time and will probably improve even furthur with time.But we will NEVER have enough transport or armour(unless we go to war,when the Gov will no doubt throw money at us albeit too late:rolleyes:)so we need to be able as a Light infantry based force to hump our kit.Wheater thats over a mountain to take over a town(Thank you SaS;)) or to carry out delaying ops in the hills and forests.We still need to train for it.

Truck Driver
10th April 2010, 12:47
Besides, if you got captured, the worst you can expect is a good walloping with a welly :-D

Don't be bold.... :-D

fiannoglach
12th April 2010, 19:58
Tanks, UAV's, CAS, all those fabulous technological advances.
In Timor, we walked. We humped, call it what you like.
No CAS or Tanks in Liberia either.
And Janjawid in Toyotas in Chad.

You train as you fight. You have to be proficient in ALL the skills. Excellence in the basic skills. After that you adapt, stay flexible.
I agree that we should be more mission specific, but what's the mission?

ZULU
12th April 2010, 20:49
You have to be proficient in ALL the skills. Excellence in the basic skills. After that you adapt, stay flexible.


Quote of the Year!

SwiftandSure
13th April 2010, 00:15
Whether thats over a mountain to take over a town(Thank you SaS;)) or to carry out delaying ops in the hills and forests.We still need to train for it.


Tanks, UAV's, CAS, all those fabulous technological advances.
In Timor, we walked. We humped, call it what you like.
No CAS or Tanks in Liberia either.
And Janjawid in Toyotas in Chad.

You train as you fight. You have to be proficient in ALL the skills. Excellence in the basic skills. After that you adapt, stay flexible.
I agree that we should be more mission specific, but what's the mission?

(Mods, apologies in advance, this isn't very webbing/smock related)

Firstly, fiannoglach, thanks for the input, good post!

Lads, I agree. I'm all for soldiers to be conditioned to the hardships of difficult terrain, and for "improvise, adapt and overcome" to be the mantra of any DF soldier. Personal skills should always be rehearsed and refreshed and as you mentioned, constantly striving for "Excellence".
But I stand by my opinion that digging in and operating from harbour areas in fields and forests is a thing of the past for the common infantry soldier, and that today's platform for basic training should be the urban environment, whether its for a shanty town in Chad, a maze of compounds in Afghanistan, a Bosnian village, or innercity Dublin.
I think it's often thought of in military circles that going into the field and exercising harbour drills in a forest should be the bedrock of all military training and that training such as OBUA and mechanized infantry work is regarded as "the sexy stuff" reserved for better trained troops.

It would be foolhardy to presume that your enemy will consistantly be less sophisticated than you, be it in the matter of technology, organisation, logistics or tactics. There will come a day that the DF have to compete against an enemy who are as professionally trained and equipped as itself, if not better.
Every training exercise I've taken part in so far in the RDF has ended up going up against 3 angry men in a field with poor morale. I've yet to hear of an exercise whereby we're taking on a Pln of highly trained and motivated paratroopers who are conducting a recce ahead of possible invasion or a drug-crazed militia going on a sporadic killing ramage through villages.

I find the training and attitude in the RDF very 2 dimensional and that no emphasis is being placed on training for dynamic scenarios. (again, I'm not fully abreast of what the PDF get up to, so I'm talking from an RDF viewpoint) I've seen RDF NCO's fold when I casually ask them one on one, what do we do when we're mid-way through a Pln assault and a multitude of other firing positions open up? The normal answer is, "It's okay, the Coy/Bn are right behind us, they'll take the fight to the enemy..." as if to say that everytime that a platoon is asked to conduct a foot patrol, the Coy will be right there with them ready to act as on the spot QRF. This isn't the Cold War with plans to advance in huge battlegroups, the theatres have changed, and small light infantry units with increasing firepower, working independently of each other whilst remaining within reach of logistical resupply is swiftly becoming the norm in a lot of theatres.

Training to fight the last war wouldn't be too bad a prospect if only it were true, but it's not. The last wars are Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Georgia, and I've yet to hear of new lessons being learned and taught from these conflicts. Just because we weren't in those wars, doesn't mean we shouldn't learn from their mistakes.
Simple things like having mine detectors being carried as part of the section's loadout seeing as IEDs are now the key threat in most theatres. I mean surely, even after today's news in Nothern Ireland, having troops learn new current methods in how to detect IEDs should be mission critical training wherever you are! My unit are presently learning the 84mm AT weapon and unarmed combat, so we're well covered if Jackie Chan decides to invade in a tank!! To me, that's the "sexy stuff" that can wait until more realistic basic skills are learnt first.

It's true we don't know what the next mission is, but we can all but guarantee it'll involve civilian interaction, and more than likely operating in areas with dense populations. Training troops at a basic level on how to conduct themselves and develop skills and drills to work in those environments will be far more beneficial than running around the woods letting of blanks and pyro in my own opinion.

Who knows, if we're lucky NAMA might churn up a few decent bits of land with ghost estates that could be tweaked into FIBUA villages at little cost for us all to train in one day :biggrin:

Thanks for the debate lads! I enjoy hearing your points of view and taking in the valid experience shared here.

Again, apologies for going off topic.