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PC 9 Crash report

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  • PC 9 Crash report

    http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?...g=ENG&loc=1652

  • #2
    All this discussion on IAC involvement in HEMS should be stopped straight away. Read the PC 9 crash report.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by billybob View Post
      All this discussion on IAC involvement in HEMS should be stopped straight away. Read the PC 9 crash report.
      WTF do you mean?
      "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
      "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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      • #4
        HEMS is a highy regulated operation that is overseen and audited by the external authority.
        Please read the report in full and then consider IAC involvment in a role that is civil and regulated by external independent authority.

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        • #5
          MOD: I'm sure that people don't need to be reminded that two people died in this incident. They have family and friends some of whom read this site. Please out of respect consider your comments carefully before posting.

          Comment


          • #6
            I thought billybobs comment regarding the pc9 crash was unfounded http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...l=1#post361354
            Having looked back at most of his AC related posts however I'm not surprised as it generally reflects his overall opinion of the IAC and is probably representative of his perception of their taking on "civvie" or private industry roles such as the air ambulance. everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that particular comment was just a tad sensationalised.
            "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
            "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

            Comment


            • #7
              that particular comment was just a tad sensationalised.
              And inaccurate, oportunistic and deeply insensitive.

              Comment


              • #8
                MOD. Im actually with Jet Jock on this. Ive made a point and Jet Jock does not see/ agree. Thats what this forum is about.

                Jet Jock my point is self auditing has been highlighted within the PC 9 report and has been deemed inadquate.

                The auditors were members of the IAC. While there can be a tacit acceptance from within an
                organisation of the status quo, nevertheless an objective overview is required from safety auditors in
                order to identify hazards and threats to safety.
                It is also noted that no FSS audits were provided to the Investigation between 2004 and 2009. The
                Investigation believes that this level of monitoring is inadequate and recommends that the IAC
                should review the effectiveness of the FSS auditing processes.
                The Investigation believes that all aspects of FTS functionality should be included in the FSS audit
                process and that an external input to the audit process is recommended.



                Here is the initial recommendation from the Dauphin crash report about the establishment of FSS.

                The Department of Defence should establish, as a matter of urgency, a full-time fully-resourced Air Safety Office in the Air Corps, to be headed up by a Flying Officer of Lieutenant Colonel rank. This issue has already been the subject of a similar recommendation in the February 1998 Price Waterhouse Report.

                Here is the PC 9 recommendation about SMS of which FSS is one of the main components.

                GOC AC should review the operation of the Safety Management System within the IAC,
                including the auditing process, and should consider an external input

                .
                I agree that the military are exempt to complying with civil rules and thats fine as long as they are carrying out military roles. Once the IAC become involved in purely civil roles involving civilian personal as part of the crew civil rules should apply . However can you really see the IAC agreeing to an IAA auditor showing up and carrying out a safety compliance audit as set out in JAR OPS.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have read the report and have taken a good look at the conclusions. It's all there in black and White. Lessons that should have been learned from previous accidents were not. SOP's are mentioned , CRM gets a look in, safe practises ( lack of) gets a mention, failings within the organisation, its all there. Listening to RTE earlier today the IAC said they accepted the report in its entirety, which is telling in itself. Does that mean all recommendations will now be acted on and implemented.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It is not the purpose of any such accident investigation and the associated
                    investigation report to apportion blame or liability.

                    I think that about sums it up, read it ,form your own opinions,given the job in question accidents do happen, thankfully at a very low rate.

                    Maybe something will be learned to save someone else the grief these families have been through.

                    Rest In Peace.
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                      I think that about sums it up, read it ,form your own opinions,given the job in question accidents do happen, thankfully at a very low rate.

                      Maybe something will be learned to save someone else the grief these families have been through.

                      Rest In Peace.
                      Rest in Peace lads. Given the size of the Corps, i would say accidents and unfortunataly deaths are quiet high over the years. And hopefully something will be learned at last. My heart go's out to all bereaved.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The AC is not the only org to ever have come under the spotlamp from the AAIU.Other orgs have had their knuckles rapped by the AAIU and this has not been confined to aero orgs.Let him who hasnt ....etc.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Very Sad reading the report, I had trouble sleeping, mulling over the same old problems throughout the Corps. I am astonished that FTS had gone the way of every other flying unit in Bal, that is with postholders that are either double or tripple jobbing and/or, who are not even type rated on the units aircraft. This problem has been a major issue throughout the organization for many years.
                          Most squadrons were like ghost towns with the Pilots only being present to sign out the aircraft for a mission and spending the rest of there time in there “real” job somewhere else on the base. Remember you are an officer first and a pilot second! In my experience this meant that squadrons operated at the lower end of the aircrafts capabilities and the functioning of the squadron as an operational/training environment for young pilots was very much reduced compared to how it should be. That is with pilots spending time planning missions, passing on experience’s, developing operational ideas and refining SOP’s plus the hundreds of intangibles that are present in a fully functioning squadron with a full compliment of Pilots.
                          When I went through BFTS the OC was the Boss he was present every day he wrote the flying detail and he did the 50Hr and Final Handling checks, as a result for the instructors at least, the unit operated like a proper squadron.

                          It is shocking given the higher risk profile of operating high performance single engine aircraft in a training environment that AC management did not deem it important to have a full time OC but had let the role become diluted.

                          I have nothing but the height of respect for the deceased instructor and immense sadness for the cadet, I also greatly respect the individual who was the postholder, who I am sure, was fully employed on the Lear.

                          I lay the blame fully at the door of AC management who for years have, half run the Corps and have never fully engaged with the realities of running a modern aviation organization, this malaise is fully manifested in the Too many accidents and incidents and the lack of any development of the Air Corps roles or capabilities. Its current difficult position in which it lacks focus or indeed any meaningful role means its future is actually in doubt.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                            Remember you are an officer first and a pilot second!
                            Two interesting points here , I think. I belive that as a matter of urgency the officer/ pilot suitation be changed, so that pilots can focus entirely on the job in hand, flying aircrafts of this type in this manner is dangerous, but is essential if one is going to even pay lip service of it being any kind of air arm that is of use to the armed forces of this country.

                            Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                            I lay the blame fully at the door of AC management who for years have, half run the Corps and have never fully engaged with the realities of running a modern aviation organization, this malaise is fully manifested in the Too many accidents and incidents and the lack of any development of the Air Corps roles or capabilities. Its current difficult position in which it lacks focus or indeed any meaningful role means its future is actually in doubt.
                            I have been studying the Irish Air Corps as a Military organization for many years now, and I find that I have to fully aggree with Charlie252 on this. It is high time for an outside audit, but who can be trusted to carry it out, I do not believe it can be safely given to any civillian department, I think that the Air Corps will have to be judged by military organizations that have a proven record, in both peace or wartime. I accept that people may believe that it smacks of serious overkill, I nominate either the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm[while it still exists], or the United States Navy. as in my opinion they represent the best military avaition providers of the english speaking world.

                            In the past 13 years the Air Corps have lost 7 aircrew in 3 different accidents, May they rest in peace.
                            Last edited by Turkey; 26 January 2012, 18:36.
                            "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                            Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                            Illegitimi non carborundum

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Like all accident reports it makes chilling and very sobering reading and for all those on the forum without an axe to grind or vested interest and who've actually taken the time to read the report in its entirity it forms the basis for comment and informed discussion on the inherent dangers and risks involved with aviation particularly in relation to SD and Somotogravic Illusion.
                              The research on the subject, well summarised in the report is extensive and grabs the attention. According to Newman (2007) in App D of the report "Spatial disorientation is a very common problem.....studies show that SD accounts for some 6 per cent to 32 per cent of major accidents and some 15 to 69 per cent of fatal accidents". He further asserts "It has been reported that for a given pilot, the career incidence of SD is in the order of 100 per cent....In other words, if a pilot flies long enough as a career or even a hobby there is almost no chance that he/she will escape experiencing at least one episode of SD. Looked at another way, pilots can be considered to be in one of two groups: those who have been disorientated, and those who will"

                              I'm certainly not in the category of those waiting to experience this phenomenon (SD) as I've experienced it already and for anyone else who's been there and got away with it, it can be quite an experience. Thankfully I wasn't in a high performance aircraft low to the ground like this crew who battled bravely all the way to save themselves and their aircraft. The report alludes to the fact that the crew were unfortunately unable to get into a stable wings level situation before a low-level abort was carried out and a rolling pull may have exacerbated the critical situation.

                              That's the real focus of the report for me and hopefully the AC.

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