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  • #61
    I would contrast the Air Corps response to the Naval Service response. The NS has ships at sea with way bigger crews than any Air Corps plane - always! Strength for strength the NS is a much more efficient service.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by ropebag View Post
      four hours after the aircraft went into the sea, and from a point more than 200km away - fantastic, are you ready to repel the Normans?
      I think the point he is making is that IRCG required top cover for the MEDEVAC quickly and no aircraft was available

      A missing helo would of course be a very different kettle of fish with much higher priority. Even with that level of priority it took a number of hours.

      Remember a helo has a reaction time of 15/45 mins. When the RAF had Nimrods their reaction time for TC was 1 hour (with RAF levels of crewing, aircraft numbers and resources.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by ropebag View Post
        the first request for assistance was at around 10pm, for a rescue waaaaaaaay the hell out into the North Atlantic, at night, in March. even if they were not able to generate an aircraft immediately the alarms should have gone off that an aircraft was required - not least because 50% of the IRCG assets were involved in this rescue and unavailable for operations elsewhere. it then took them 6 hours to generate an 'emergency' response - does 'emergency' have a different meaning in the AC from the rest of the English speaking world?



        no, the immediate priority to to address the capability gaps thrown into sharp relief by this tragedy - the cause of this could be anything, and it could be months before its known. we know that the top cover and emergency response capabilities are woefully inadaquate and there are things that could be done to adress that tomorow morning, we won't know if a seagull went to the engine or the FADEC failed, or a gearbox exploded until the FDR and CVR are retreived at the very least, and quite possibly until the wreckage is recovered from the sea floor.

        it is quite possible, likely perhaps, that in this instance the circumstances of the aircraft loss meant that the ability to react to an emergency was entirely irrelevent to whether lives would be lost or not, but we can see that in different circumstances the inability to react and to do so quickly might well be the difference between saving lives and recovering bodies.

        RIP, its bloody sad.
        You need to get you timelines together before making such statements.
        2140 ICG Centre in Malin Head receives distress call from fishing boat 240km off the coast.
        2200 ICG request AC top cover, none was available at the time so the Dublin helicopter was tasked to assist.
        0045 ICG receives message from Rescue 116 it is about to land to refuel at Blacksod
        0100 ATC report loss of contact to Rescue 116 and emergency is declared.
        0420 AC CASA is airborne.

        It did not take 6 hours to respond as the incident only became the emergency once Rescue 116 went down. That another heli provides cover is standard practice and if nothing had happen most people would not be saying anything. Before anyone jumps to conclusions we need to find out what happened. As for our SAR capability this will not be affected in the short term as CHC has already allocated an aircraft to replace Rescue 116. That is why now the first task is to recover the missing crew and FDR/CVR. To find out what happened and then to see what need to happen.

        This tragic event should not be taken to begin yet another inter-service bashing game. The services and I include the CG in the list can and do work effectively together.

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        • #64
          You should learn to read, and then to count.

          Look at the timeline you yourself provide - six and a half hours between the AC being told that a major operation was ongoing 200+km off the west coast involving 50% of the total IRCG aviation assets and an aircraft being ready to leave the ground.

          Where do these people do their taxi driving sideline - Cardiff?

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          • #65
            Steady on, The AC do provide T/C when possible, in this instance the T/C request was declined straight up to avoid any faffing about as what happened in the organ transport fiasco. Having so declined the A/C had no further role until informed of the loss at 1.30 and thus got mobilised within 2.5 hours or so. Referring to 50% commitment by the Cg is meaningless given that every tasking will involve 25% of the unit and only becomes 50% if the Ac decline to do top cover. There have been instances when the Cg have put 75% of their force into a single incident.
            Is not the GASU on a 24/7 basis.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              You should learn to read, and then to count.

              Look at the timeline you yourself provide - six and a half hours between the AC being told that a major operation was ongoing 200+km off the west coast involving 50% of the total IRCG aviation assets and an aircraft being ready to leave the ground.

              Where do these people do their taxi driving sideline - Cardiff?
              I get your commitment to your point but perhaps you should take some time to reflect on your comments .....

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              • #67
                Could someone clarify if 116 was on it's way to the rescue or returning from it , just curious as to why it was out over Black Rock coming in for a landing at Blacksod after having just passed it if it was coming from Dublin .
                Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Laners View Post
                  Could someone clarify if 116 was on it's way to the rescue or returning from it , just curious as to why it was out over Black Rock coming in for a landing at Blacksod after having just passed it if it was coming from Dublin .
                  It was on the way there and had turned to land at Blacksod. I too am curious why it went out over Blackrock, does someone have any details on the standard approach into Blacksod ?

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                  • #69
                    Has anyone been able to capture the ais track of r116 and maybe put it up?

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                    • #70
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                      Originally posted by danno View Post
                      Has anyone been able to capture the ais track of r116 and maybe put it up?

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                      • #71
                        R116 may have flown beyond Blacksod for direct VHF comms with the Sligo S92 crew, which was already out over the Atlantic, in order to get an update on the situation.

                        The Sligo S92 had to press on with its own mission and got back to the scene at Blackrock at approx 02:10z. It must have been running very tight on fuel, but it stayed on until approx 03:00z when it was relieved by the Shannon S92 which was up at approx 02:05z.

                        The first of the RNLI vessels arrived on scene at approx 02:35z.

                        Casa crews know what its like to be out low over the atlantic at night and suffer an emergency e.g. engine failure. Once they had been alerted to the loss, right now I can't believe anything other than that they would have moved heaven and earth to get airborne and assist. But there's no two ways about it - it took a long time and no doubt that is going to be part of the investigation and changes will be recommended. We know the aircraft are getting on, we know the Air Corps doesn't possess a multi engine training aircraft anymore and we know C252 wasn't available on the day.

                        From AIS, C253's movements on the day all approximate:

                        From AIS C253
                        Up approx 04:25z
                        On scene 05:15z
                        Dept scene 09:10z
                        ===============
                        Up approx (2) 11:35z
                        On scene (2) 12:30z
                        Dept (2) 18:20z

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                        • #72
                          I would be reclucant to criticise Air Corps crew in this event. The situation is not of their making. However Air Corps management have permitted this situation to happen.
                          They need to ask themselves:
                          1. What is the Role of the Casa Maritime Patrol Aircraft?
                          2. Is it the most suitable top cover aircraft?
                          3. Is it possible to have a fixed wing search/top cover aircraft available 24/7
                          4. If not, what is the point of having one?
                          German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                          German 2: Private? I am a general!
                          German 1: That is the bad news.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                            I would be reclucant to criticise Air Corps crew in this event. The situation is not of their making. However Air Corps management have permitted this situation to happen.
                            They need to ask themselves:
                            1. What is the Role of the Casa Maritime Patrol Aircraft?
                            2. Is it the most suitable top cover aircraft?
                            3. Is it possible to have a fixed wing search/top cover aircraft available 24/7
                            4. If not, what is the point of having one?
                            I think all of those questions are going to have to be satisfactorily answered before any government gives a green light to any potential Casa replacement tender.

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                            • #74
                              http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...anes-1.2914983

                              Regardless of ATC--Crewing etc 24/7 cover is not guaranteed.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by danno View Post
                                http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...anes-1.2914983

                                Regardless of ATC--Crewing etc 24/7 cover is not guaranteed.
                                Yes, I'm not *entirely* sure that highlighting that the two CASA's were grounded for four weeks while components were removed, sent to Spain, fixed and then returned - instead of insisting that replacement parts were sent out from Spain is helping the the PR effort...

                                The fact remains that either the AC knew it would be required to generate an aircraft and did nothing about it for 3 hours, and then when it tried it took them 3 hours to find a qualified crew, or it took them 6 hours to find a qualified crew.

                                Which of those alternatives do you find more comforting?

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