British Army Scimitar replacement

[easyrider]

The UK has selected the Austrian/Spanish ASCOD Uhlan/Pizarro AFV to replace the Scimitar CVR(T). (General Dynamics owns the Austrian and Spanish companies involved, so in the UK it will be known as a GD vehicle.)



The Scimitar is an 8 tonne light tank with a crew of 3, whereas the ASCOD is a 30 tonne AFV with a crew of 3 and an 8-man infantry section. Seems like the ASCOD is much more like a Warrrior than a Scimitar.





Is this just a new toy for the toffs in the pointless cavalry regiments? Why isn't the ASCOD to replace the Warrior? Maybe some of our resident British Army recruiting sergeants could explain?

[Aidan]

The version to be purchased by the UK is actually 4 separate vehicles.

The Scimitar is seen as too light to offer any real protection against IED type threats, to be too small to carry a proper sensor fit, and too lightly armoured and armed to get itself out of trouble.

The thinking is that the larger chassis can carry more armour, more electronics, and offers a far superior platform for sensors. As well as carrying a 40mm gun, in a properly stabilised turret with a modern sight fit. Apparently the ASCOD, in some versions, will actually weigh up to 40 tonnes in BA service.

The Americans have been using a version of the Bradley as a Recce track for decades, there should be no great surprise that the UK are following a similar pattern.

[easyrider]

But in that case, why not replace Scimitar with Warrior? Isn't Warrior going to be upgraded - new turret, new gun etc.? Or is the ASCOD going to replace Warrior also? The US Army uses the Bradley both as an infantry and a recce IFV, but it seems the Brits are going to have two different but similar vehicles - doesn't seem to be very efficient.

[paul g]

ASCOD SV will actually be a big development over the original ASCOD, new power pack comes from the German Puma vehicle for example.

As for them not using Warriors, its almost 20 years since they were in production, the assembly line has long gone as warrior didn't fare well in the export market, and resurecting an old design wasn't worth it, especially as the ascod offered more potential for growth. For example its turret ring is larger than the warrior.

it is intended to have a complete family of vehicles, block one is just the beginning, including a version with a 120mm gun in the medium armour role, which will weigh over 40 tonnes, with an AVLB, hence why its a lot bigger.

However, there are no orders as yet, and after the election it might be canceled.

[easyrider]

....
it is intended to have a complete family of vehicles, block one is just the beginning, including a version with a 120mm gun in the medium armour role, which will weigh over 40 tonnes, with an AVLB, hence why its a lot bigger....

Challenger replacement? So different variants of one vehicle will fulfil tank, IFV and recce roles?

.... However, there are no orders as yet, and after the election it might be canceled.

Everything will be cancelled after the election.

[paul g]

Challenger replacement? So different variants of one vehicle will fulfil tank, IFV and recce roles?



Everything will be cancelled after the election.

Nope, it not a challenger replacement, its a replacement for the scimitars in the medium armoured squadrons in MBT roled regiments. the five MBT regiments the british have all have three MBT squadrons, and a Squadron of Scimitars.

challenger is getting the Rheinmetall 120mm gun, and is being updated.

There is going to be a strategic defence review after the british election, and lots of things are going to be up for review, one of them being FRES and the survival of the british army's heavy armour force, the others being Trident, the Carriers, the 25000 troops in germany, F-35, some have even suggested the survival of the RAF as an independent service is up for grabs.

[X-RayOne]

The Scimitar is seen as too light to offer any real protection against IED type threats, to be too small to carry a proper sensor fit, and too lightly armoured and armed to get itself out of trouble.

taking that further...and closer to home also. all the above stands for the scorpion then also.

time to retire it off and go with something that integrates better with our current cavalry fleet and still fulfills role??

[paul g]

taking that further...and closer to home also. all the above stands for the scorpion then also.

time to retire it off and go with something that integrates better with our current cavalry fleet and still fulfills role??

its called the Mowag MRV

[X-RayOne]

...so thats a yes then! i am aware of the MRV.

the point being the scorpion is being kept for what reason exactly?

it isn't suitable for deployment (except down o'connell st on parades) and doesn't have the capability of the rest of the cav recce fleet.

the arguement of keeping tracked vehicles for the experience gained doesn't hold water. we haven't bought tracked vehicles in decides and aren't likely to the way the DF is structured. the same arguement could have been made for jets in the air corps but the fougas were got rid of and they restructured towards the roles they developed i.e. more heli ops.

better to use the money thescorpions expand on more suitable vehicles, perhaps other mowag MRVs or another variant? or something else?

[paul g]

All depends on what happens to the Cav corps in the next white paper, and if we end up with an ISTAR battalion to replace the present set up.

As for keeping the scorpions, there is also the question of the df wishing to retain the basics of a Direct fire support capability, a training tool and the billets up at the AC squadron. But without an upgrade they're pretty useless,

Portugal have just ordered some OTO melara 105mm turrets for their Pandurs for example , and we might do the same eventually.


i

[X-RayOne]

possibly regarding direct fire support capability....but no use having it if they can't deploy.

and it could also be provided on a wheeled, modern, well protected chassis. cheaper also.

[RoyalGreenJacket]

easyrider - i was only 'Armoured Infantry' for a short while so i'm not the best man to comment on this subject however i know the Scimitar has been 'Left Out of Battle' in many instances in Afghan for some of the reasons Aidan rightly pointed out.

our battalions Scorpions were upgraded to Sabres - great bits of kit, low profile and go anywhere.

however new this new platform will provide a much better base for enhanced sensors coming into service as well has having a pretty decent low profile turret.

if it's good at what it does and beat the Warrior in trials then so be it.

as for why it was chosen instead of the Warrior - only those trialling it will truly know.

seems a decent bit of kit tho - will be good to have some more of these on the battlefield again.

[Goldie fish]

The Scorp was never deployable, recently due to the fact it had a thirsty petrol engine while the rest had diesel. Before thet, the AML90 had a better bang than the weak 76mm.

When it comes to offroad performance though, the scorp nails it, indeed it could be said that a tracked AFV would be able to continue during Chad's rainy season, where the Mowags would have difficulty.
It looks as if light recce will be done by the RG32M from now on, with the Mowag bringing a bigger bang to the game. But the upper end of the scale, once carried by the AML 90 is still to be filled, and it would make sense to have a tracked AFV, should a Scorp replacement be considered.

[Border Bunny]

i know the Scimitar has been 'Left Out of Battle' in many instances in Afghan for some of the reasons Aidan rightly pointed out.

Will it not be better to keep the Scimitar and have the Jackal 'Left Out of Battle'?

The Scimitar is not much more in weight or size over the Jackal and can be transported by the same RAF aircraft.
They have both the same 3 man crew.
Better allround armour on the Scimitar.
More firepower, 30mm auto cannon and 7.62mm MG Vs .5 MG/40mm AGL and 7,62mm MG.
Better off road performance and similer offroad speed.

[SwiftandSure]

Will it not be better to keep the Scimitar and have the Jackal 'Left Out of Battle'?

The Scimitar is not much more in weight or size over the Jackal and can be transported by the same RAF aircraft.
They have both the same 3 man crew.
Better allround armour on the Scimitar.
More firepower, 30mm auto cannon and 7.62mm MG Vs .5 MG/40mm AGL and 7,62mm MG.
Better off road performance and similer offroad speed.

Anti-Jackal and an interest in the Rhodesian Bush War...... You seem very familiar for a new member.

Welcome to the board