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  • OK so..... someone in the know usually pitches up. What is being upgraded on the Scorpions ?
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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    • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
      Show me a photo of a similar setup in use on a modern AFV.
      Originally posted by danno View Post
      Is the obsolete word appropriate?
      Definite modern?!

      As in deployed in Iraq and/or Afghanistan. I more than likely can't because in many cases the vehicles are designed with zero threat and high IED threat in mind. You don't put a MG on a turret on an AA mount if there is zero air threat.

      BA Challenger had there 7.62 AA MG mounts removed and replaced by a RWS.

      I think the same happened the Abrams with there HMGs.

      But point stands many AFVs have AA/pintle mounts (but very few (if any) have them in Iraq/Afghanistan).

      Why because there is zero air threat, high IED threat and threat from dismounted infantry.

      In conventional warfare with air threat they are useful.

      In a IED/COIN environment they are of limited use.

      Comment


      • There is a reason they were replaced with RWS. Modern=anything in combat in the last 30 years. There has not been an AA threat to a UN mission since the Congo. Shooting 7.62 at passing attacking aircraft is a morale boosting exercise only, as was discovered in 1982.
        No point bringing an armoured vehicle with you if you have to fire any weapon from outside the armour.


        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
          There is a reason they were replaced with RWS. Modern=anything in combat in the last 30 years. There has not been an AA threat to a UN mission since the Congo. Shooting 7.62 at passing attacking aircraft is a morale boosting exercise only, as was discovered in 1982.
          No point bringing an armoured vehicle with you if you have to fire any weapon from outside the armour.
          what about Israeli planes and choppers?

          Edited to remove language which may be regarded as offensive, let's not have any more of it
          Last edited by Turkey; 13 August 2013, 13:43.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
            Show me a photo of a similar setup in use on a modern AFV.
            http://www.google.ie/imgres?q=Abrams...1&tx=127&ty=87

            Abrams - Invasion of Iraq

            http://www.google.ie/imgres?q=Abrams...6&tx=101&ty=89

            Abrams - post invasion

            http://www.google.ie/imgres?q=Abrams...6&tx=163&ty=74

            Challenger 2 - Iraq invasion

            http://www.google.ie/imgres?q=leopar...&tx=123&ty=130

            Leopard 2 - Afghanistan

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            • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
              There has not been an AA threat to a UN mission since the Congo.
              The DF don't just train for UN missions

              Shooting 7.62 at passing attacking aircraft is a morale boosting exercise only, as was discovered in 1982.
              In some ways yes but as a Cadre NCO for 2 AD many moons ago (when they had L70s (not EL70s)) - the idea is not to shoot the plane down but to divert the pilot's attention and stop them pressing home the attack.

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              • AA threat or requirement?

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                • Originally posted by danno View Post
                  AA threat or requirement?
                  Standard fit

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                  • Originally posted by DeV
                    Not sure about vehicles but the IAF have had no problem attacking UNIFIL positions in the past.

                    They are still violating Lebanese airspace (and UN Resolutions) on a daily basis.
                    When?


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                    Comment


                    • 2006 when 4 UN observers were killed in a well marked UN building by a 1000lb bomb, after days of shelling. Hezbollah were operating nearby.

                      A gun on top of a lightly armoured recce vehicle isn't going to deter an F-16 at 20kft dropping a LGB from 10 miles away, nor is it going to prevent an Apache firing a volley of Hellfires from 5 miles away.

                      If your opfor is using something like a Gazelle & machine guns/rockets - like the Syrians - perhaps it's a reasonable defensive mount in that case, but I'd rather they face up to at least shoulder mounted SAMS before guns come into play.

                      Anyway, the Israeli's would in all probability have knocked them out of the sky a few months before the UN decided the UNDOF guys could fire back.
                      Last edited by pym; 12 August 2013, 01:04.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        The DF don't just train for UN missions



                        In some ways yes but as a Cadre NCO for 2 AD many moons ago (when they had L70s (not EL70s)) - the idea is not to shoot the plane down but to divert the pilot's attention and stop them pressing home the attack.
                        The 2 AD were always somewhat deluded about their relevance, the gun systems they operated were out-ranged by most contemporary Air-To-Ground missiles and their radars were bait for HARM type systems.

                        You're not going to distract a strike aircraft after they've easily spotted and wadied you from beyond your maximum engagement range.
                        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                        • And to all those who constantly rant about scorpions, please go away and read about the deployability of tracked vehicles vs what the Irish Forces do overseas, and take a little look at the logistics around the same.

                          Now if any one can make an arguement for retention of the Scorpions based on an overseas role, I'm sure 1 ACS would love to hear your theory as before long the Scorpions will go the way of the AMLs.

                          They have no role in peacekeeping ops due to their nature and shortcomings which are primarily those highlighted when the AMLs were deployed to Liberia.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                            They have no role in peacekeeping ops due to their nature and shortcomings which are primarily those highlighted when the AMLs were deployed to Liberia.
                            I'm asking questions to stimulate discussion, nothing else but:

                            And it could be an upgraded Scorpion or a Scorpion replacement but:

                            Does a 76/90 mm not bring something to the party? Especially if you are in a FMR/QRF role?

                            A tracked vehicle should have coped better with the "roads" in Liberia than an AML90, how did the Swedish CV9040s get on?

                            Comment


                            • Swedish CV90S were low loaded on metal roads and went it alone when the going got bad, nothing matched them in the scrub and their recovery CV had a bull dozer blade on the front and it regularly ploughed trees out of the way to recover a few mis-laid mowags up to their bo***cks in mud! A scorpion could've done the same

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                              • I'm asking questions to stimulate discussion, nothing else but:
                                Why? When the facts are there for them selves

                                And it could be an upgraded Scorpion or a Scorpion replacement but:
                                Lesson from the past, upgrade AML fleet and and down grade it and sdrap it within 10 years..hindsight...why bother making the same mistake with CVRT.

                                Does a 76/90 mm not bring something to the party? Especially if you are in a FMR/QRF role?
                                No because you have to get it the party first.Tracked armour isn't built for roads its built to be carried to where its neeeded which slows down the whole QRF idea. Recce Vehicles of this nature were designed to be used in a coventional War of fix battles against a definite enemy.

                                A tracked vehicle should have coped better with the "roads" in Liberia than an AML90, how did the Swedish CV9040s get on?
                                Scorpion is a very dated vehicle with limited crew protection built around a high spec petrol engine which needs high maintenence , has no troop carrying capacity and is very demanding of its crews and is unsuited for sustained patrolling.
                                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                                Comment

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