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Suggesting a new Cav ORBAT

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  • #61
    Originally posted by The real Jack View Post
    There is a rumour doing the rounds that 1 Mech might be ditching berets in favour of Party Hats...
    Ha... Would doubt that one - I'd say it's someone floating a kite...
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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    • #62
      Found a bit on the LTAV:
      http://www.dfmagazine.ie/site-assets...-_Jun_2010.pdf (Page 18)

      http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/Re...C?OpenDocument

      http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/fba727373c93a4f080256c53004d976e/2d3f7aaec4efca2d802574440031a060/$FILE/RFT.doc

      http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/0/9AFA5F99BAE5152380257571005C2DA1/$file/RFT+STA+Suite.doc

      http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/fba727373c93a4f080256c53004d976e/9afa5f99bae5152380257571005c2da1/$FILE/QUESTIONS%20AND%20ANSWERS%20RELATING%20%20TO%20THE %20TENDER%20COMPETITION%20FOR%20STA%20SUITE.doc

      http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/fba727373c93a4f080256c53004d976e/2d3f7aaec4efca2d802574440031a060/$FILE/Q&A.doc
      Last edited by DeV; 1 May 2015, 23:55.

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      • #63
        Suggestion: bring a bigger gun.

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        • #64
          IF it is to be a somewhat "real" armoured cavalry squadron----a battalion sized unit----- (as opposed to a cav troop) and the "teeth of the army" (as the military.ie site claims), then:


          4 tank platoons of 4 CV-90-105's each. Attach an infantry platoon with 4 Mowag III Piranha's, some Javelin mounted LATV's, etc.. A legitimate tank troop/coy.

          A headquarters coy/troop with 2 CV-90 command vehicles, 2 recovery vehicles, 4 LATV's, an ambulance Mowag and some repair vehicles.

          A recce platoon with 4 CRV's, 4 LATV's and 16 dismounts.

          An infantry coy with 120 troops and 16 Mowag Paranha III's. (attach the existing 1st Mechanised Infantry Coy).

          A mobile artillery battery of 2 towed 105's and 2-4 vehicles mounting 81 mm and/or 120 mm mortars.

          Even that will be a "armoured cavalry squadron lite" compared to an American Armored Cavalry Squadron TOE.

          But it would be a legitimate armoured reserve force to back up the infantry battalions and the cavalry squadrons.

          Of course, that would take a government investment into the purchase of CV-90's and some additional Mowags, so it probably won't happen.

          It would be a nice formation, though. A real strategic reserve for Army command.
          Last edited by TerryD1957; 9 May 2015, 17:14.

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          • #65
            US view on Cav

            https://companyleader.themilitarylea...avalry-anyway/

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            • #66
              What equipment is there for ISTAR other then Mk1 human eyeball? I see no mention of any acquisition of SIGINT/COMINT/optronics/radar/extendable masts/ESM/C-ESM etc?

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              • #67
                My suggestion for a cavalry squadron make up

                A and B troop equipped with 4 Fennek 4x4 reconnaissance armoured vehicle 4 per troop and 1 UAV per troop.

                C troop equipped with 4 CRV and CTR detachments

                D troop equipped with 4 MRV and anti Armour det

                support troop 6 CRV with 2x amstar det, 2 x mobility det, 4 x sniper teams

                HQ and admin troop i wont go into

                A bit of a dream but that how i would like to see a troop, i believe the cavalry should not use the RG32 and the fennek is a better fit. Yes i would like to see a 105mm or 120mm in D troop but unless we go down the road of tracked i believe we should wait for a more suited wheeled vehicle
                Last edited by madmark; 17 January 2020, 21:44.
                Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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                • #68
                  Talk in the corps is to get rid of all CRVs, drop close recce and focus solely on medium recce/ formation recce. Using a MRV type platform for A/B/C and Spt with something more devastating
                  Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by spider pig View Post
                    Talk in the corps is to get rid of all CRVs, drop close recce and focus solely on medium recce/ formation recce. Using a MRV type platform for A/B/C and Spt with something more devastating
                    If that's the case at least one troop should have a vehicle with a low silhouette. Are all infantry mowags converting to crv would be a good move for them
                    Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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                    • #70
                      Click image for larger version

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                      Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                      What equipment is there for ISTAR other then Mk1 human eyeball? I see no mention of any acquisition of SIGINT/COMINT/optronics/radar/extendable masts/ESM/C-ESM etc?
                      Like a RG32 LTV fitted with an Elbit MRSS?

                      https://www.flickr.com/photos/dfmaga...7693660480364/
                      Last edited by EUFighter; 18 January 2020, 20:37.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by spider pig View Post
                        Talk in the corps is to get rid of all CRVs, drop close recce and focus solely on medium recce/ formation recce. Using a MRV type platform for A/B/C and Spt with something more devastating
                        You mean like they were supposed to do in the first place? Close RECCE was and is an Infantry tasking. Medium is Cav and Long range is SOF.

                        D Cav blurred the waters back in the early 2000's when the Rapid Reaction force /PSO Bn force structure was first decided and muscled in on an Infantry role just to still have a place at the table. Hence years of wasted time and money developing capabilities and purchasing equipment for a role they were never intended to do.

                        What could the Cav have bought for the money they wasted on the CRV's and ISR LTAV's that would have been more suited to a medium RECCE role??
                        "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                        • #72
                          It was the beancounters way of giving cav a job without need to provide any new armour.
                          No regard for international best practice. Dismounts are just that, people who leave the vehicle when it becomes impossible to achieve the objective by staying in it. Having a whole section of dismounts is already done by mechanised infantry.
                          The pIIIh is unsuitable for recce. It's too big. I have no experience of the LTAV but unless it offers something extra in term of optics, ground radar or firepower, there isn't any point.
                          We have managed to come up with an ORBAT that suits our equipment, rather than having equipment to suit the ORBAT.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                            [ATTACH]8718[/ATTACH][ATTACH]8718[/ATTACH]

                            Like a RG32 LTV fitted with an Elbit MRSS?

                            https://www.flickr.com/photos/dfmaga...7693660480364/
                            I think they were intended for Artillery FOs.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • #74
                              It was the beancounters way of giving cav a job without need to provide any new armour.
                              Mixed bag really, with one of the major problems being the DF had just purchased the initial Mowags and had jumped two generations of AFV and hadn't quite worked out what the possible successor to the AML fleet was in fear of loosing the capital budget bought more Mowags in the hope in would be a one vehicle fits all roles. By the time they woke up to the reality that the Mowags weren't what was needed in the Cav role the money was gone.

                              The figure of €25 million was out there in about 2002 for an AML replacement but they couldn't make their minds up.

                              One of the major problems the Cavalry Corps has always suffered from is the amount of units has exceed the armour available and thus Squadrons on the ground tended to be oversized troops or putting more than two squadrons on the ground took every available piece of armour in the country.

                              Reality has begun to sink in and the amount of squadrons has been reduced , but then again so has the amount of armour available, two full squadrons with a complete fit out of suitable vehicles is enough. Get rid of the dismountable elements and ditch the CTR role and get back to being an armoured recce force and stop trying to take a bite from all the cherries.

                              Once the actual realistic role has been identified but the specific vehicles required, yes get something with an element of commonality but get away from the concept of a multitask vehicle that no one gets to use.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                              • #75
                                Within the EUBG's we have tried to claim the ISTAR role which mean we need to focus then on equipping the Cavalry properly, but it also means that we need to have enough APC's for the Infantry at the same time.

                                As for the PIIIH being too big I am not that sure, the new French EBRC Jaguar is the same size of the MRV and is actually heavier. The new Australian Boxer CRV (Combat Recon Vehicle) makes the PIIIH look like a Mini in comparison. The Canadian and Australian armies had used LAVII for recon, (Coyote & ASLAV) both of which are around the same size. And the Patria AMV is used in the same role by the Polish and South African. Even the new Canadian TAPV is not too much different is size. And lastly the Italians have now two recon versions of the Freccia entering service.

                                But looking at the Italian model is interesting, their Cavalry Battalion has a mix of equipment. The combat element consists of 3 Squadrons, 2 Recon and 1 Heavy. The Recon have 7 Freccia and 12 Lince vehicles:
                                - Command 1 Freccia Recon
                                - Troop A-C: 2 Freccia Recon + 4 VTLM Lince

                                The Heavy Squadron has 3 Troops of 4x Centauro 2 plus 2 Centaur in the Command.

                                This gives them per Cav Battalion (same as our Corp): 14x Centauro, 14x Freccia Recon and 24 VTLM Lince.

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