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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
    If we head down the road of LOA2 or 3, we are likely to see a lot more APCs for the infantry

    Is Jackal with a GMG/HMG/Javelin and a 7.62mm (and no dismountable element) capable of doing all the roles that could be asked of the Cav ??

    personnally I’d say no. MRV and CRV are better suited (currently at least)

    unfortunately it isn’t realistic to have relatively large numbers of RDF MOWAG crews….. so what does the RDF do?

    provide the dismounted elements or crew a separate Jackal type vehicle ?

    personally, a Jackal type vehicle possibly makes most sense but again what about the dismounted element?
    with 4 jackals per troop working in pairs you have 4 solders per jackal that's two CTR teams per troop when you leave the vehicles in the FRV with Driver +1 per vehicle in case of a hot extract . that works for me
    Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

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    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      If we head down the road of LOA2 or 3, we are likely to see a lot more APCs for the infantry

      Is Jackal with a GMG/HMG/Javelin and a 7.62mm (and no dismountable element) capable of doing all the roles that could be asked of the Cav ??

      personnally I’d say no. MRV and CRV are better suited (currently at least)

      unfortunately it isn’t realistic to have relatively large numbers of RDF MOWAG crews….. so what does the RDF do?

      provide the dismounted elements or crew a separate Jackal type vehicle ?

      personally, a Jackal type vehicle possibly makes most sense but again what about the dismounted element?
      The only reason for dismounts, is they can't see out of their current (and past) vehicle. If you want to go walkabout, you team up, and one vehicle provides overwatch/security for the dismounts and the other vehicles.
      Coyote does the same job as the ACMAT the ARW use.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by madmark View Post

        with 4 jackals per troop working in pairs you have 4 solders per jackal that's two CTR teams per troop when you leave the vehicles in the FRV with Driver +1 per vehicle in case of a hot extract . that works for me
        True but not the way I’d like it (same can be said for LTAV)

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        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

          The only reason for dismounts, is they can't see out of their current (and past) vehicle. If you want to go walkabout, you team up, and one vehicle provides overwatch/security for the dismounts and the other vehicles.
          Coyote does the same job as the ACMAT the ARW use.
          Lots of potential Cav taskings potentially involve dismounts not just recce’s

          personally I just like the added flexibility it provides

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post

            True but not the way I’d like it (same can be said for LTAV)
            for recce the MRV and CRV are too big and loud for being a sneaky b*$tard. but there is still a use for them thats why i suggest keeping them in 1ACS
            Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DeV View Post

              Is Jackal with a GMG/HMG/Javelin and a 7.62mm (and no dismountable element) capable of doing all the roles that could be asked of the Cav ??

              personnally I’d say no. MRV and CRV are better suited (currently at least)

              unfortunately it isn’t realistic to have relatively large numbers of RDF MOWAG crews….. so what does the RDF do?

              provide the dismounted elements or crew a separate Jackal type vehicle ?

              personally, a Jackal type vehicle possibly makes most sense but again what about the dismounted element?
              Mowags are big, heavy, and not really a great recce vehicle, though they are fantastic for troop transport. I think the bigger question we need to address before spending money (hypothetical money that is) is ask "What role will the Cavalry Corps fulfil in the Army". Take the British Army and their Light Cavalry Regiments for example,

              The light cavalry soldiers are tasked with preparing the way for the rest of the force. They are out in front carrying out many different roles, from scouting for information to engaging enemy targets.

              They use Jackal 2 fighting vehicles and other tactical, lightweight equipment to deploy anywhere in the world – often at short notice. And the wide range of operations they tackle means they get to make use of their diverse skills in times of peace and times of conflict.
              In the hypothetical world where we had a Squadron based on the Saber Squadron Model, a 12 person Recce Troop could form a 4 person CTR team, 1 person from each vehicle, either that, or the CTR element would form part of the Support Troop.
              What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

              Comment


              • Back in the dark ages, the orbat had dismounts on land rovers, with the canvas tilt either removed completely, or rolled back to provide shelter, while permitting obs. Recce troop had AML60 (with 3 aboard) providing fire support for the Land Rovers. Armoured troop had AML90 and M3 APC to provide fire support to Recce troop if necessary. Then Land Rovers became Nissans with steel and glass where once was canvas and sky. Suddenly the AML60 became a Nissan too. Then Nissan Became Pajero and the remaining AML90 and M3 in the armoured troop became Mowag, with all these extra seats in the back. Suddenly people who used to be crew of a vehicle, became "dismounts" The motorcyclists in the squadron also seem to have vanished from the ORBAT along the way.
                Suddenly we all ended up in the back of Mowags that were unable to do either the Land Rovers job, the AML90s job, or the M3 job. But everyone in the back anyway and we'll call you all "dismounts".
                As Odin said, the Sabre Sqn model gets you back to where you once were. A spare bod on each vehicle, to make up the 4 person CTR team. Otherwise you are just duplicating the infantry recce.
                na grohmiti
                Commander in Chief
                Last edited by na grohmiti; 29 March 2022, 14:50.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                Comment


                • It's been a slow day, don't judge me!

                  I'd move all the MRV's to 1ACS, keep two CRV's per Squadron, and then the rest as below, with ancillary vehicles in the Admin Troop.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

                  Comment


                  • Of course, you could also go the other route with vehicles, as USMC 1st Recon did during the Iraq invasion, using Humvee with a variety of roof mounted armament. Once it's mine protected.
                    Both France and Spain produce suitable vehicle types.
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      Of course, you could also go the other route with vehicles, as USMC 1st Recon did during the Iraq invasion, using Humvee with a variety of roof mounted armament. Once it's mine protected.
                      Both France and Spain produce suitable vehicle types.
                      In a country with relatively few armored vehicles. Would a cavalry squadron with two say medium troops with 4x MRV type vehicle and dismounts and two light troops with a 4/6 mowag eagle type with sensors be more appropriate in a brigade ideally with an over-the-hill uav system as currently fielded in the DF supported by a hq/support troop be more appropriate. This could be backed up by 1/2 ideally 2 armored cavalry squadrons at division level with 3x heavy troops of say a Centauro type vehicle along with 1 light troop as above.

                      This could allow for a cavalry regiment centralized with two squadrons detached to brigades providing a range of capabilities and in line with alot of other nations. Also the French Jaguar vehicle looks very impressive. :-)

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                      • My Walter Mitty dream is for us to buy into Belgian/French armoured vehicle and artillery pool

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                        • Originally posted by Spark23 View Post

                          . Also the French Jaguar vehicle looks very impressive. :-)
                          the problem is that the Jaguar is very big, harder to transport by air (a key French requirement), harder to support because of all the tech on board and the nice little VAB that it is replacing was much better for local sneak-and-peek stuff. I think it's trying to do too much for one platform. The older French combo of the VAB and the VBL worked very well together.

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                          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

                            the problem is that the Jaguar is very big, harder to transport by air (a key French requirement), harder to support because of all the tech on board and the nice little VAB that it is replacing was much better for local sneak-and-peek stuff. I think it's trying to do too much for one platform. The older French combo of the VAB and the VBL worked very well together.
                            It's the Griffon that is replacing the VAB actually. Jaguar is the tank looking yoke, Griffon is the Bushmaster looking yoke.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

                              the problem is that the Jaguar is very big, harder to transport by air (a key French requirement), harder to support because of all the tech on board and the nice little VAB that it is replacing was much better for local sneak-and-peek stuff. I think it's trying to do too much for one platform. The older French combo of the VAB and the VBL worked very well together.
                              Jaguar is replacing the AMX10, ERC90 etc (don’t forget in addition to the 40mm CTA cannon it also has MMP medium range ATGWs)

                              Serval is replacing VBL

                              Griffin is replacing VAB

                              why are they bigger? Superior protection is one of the main reasons
                              Last edited by DeV; 30 March 2022, 16:44.

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                              • Originally posted by Spark23 View Post

                                In a country with relatively few armored vehicles. Would a cavalry squadron with two say medium troops with 4x MRV type vehicle and dismounts and two light troops with a 4/6 mowag eagle type with sensors be more appropriate in a brigade ideally with an over-the-hill uav system as currently fielded in the DF supported by a hq/support troop be more appropriate. This could be backed up by 1/2 ideally 2 armored cavalry squadrons at division level with 3x heavy troops of say a Centauro type vehicle along with 1 light troop as above.

                                This could allow for a cavalry regiment centralized with two squadrons detached to brigades providing a range of capabilities and in line with alot of other nations. Also the French Jaguar vehicle looks very impressive. :-)
                                The above with Cav Sniper,Jav Team with attached MFC

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