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  • Wheeled AFV Talk

    An Cosaintor states that 2 AML armoured cars with 4 crew can be carried in the MI26 with the rest of the toops being carried by the MI8.

    That AML car that is embarking / disembarking the MI28 helicopter is the AML-20.....notice the canvas covering the gun mantle...that is the difference between it and the AML-90..beside the main weapon

    Regards

    Måk

  • #2
    Whoops

    Comment


    • #3
      Aidan..no real "whoops" Sir..tis i am just a cranky auld Armchair General with beady Eagle Eyes

      As for the Rooikats... i was recently reading a web site covering SADF equiptment and it stated that there were over 280 Rooikats in service with the SADF..but due to cut backs and lack of money there was only something like a Company strenght of Rooikats available for immediate use and even then they found it hard to keep things all ship shape re spares and training.

      Regards

      Måk
      Last edited by Måk; 27 April 2004, 15:46.

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      • #4
        I stand corrected, The Rooikat is a great bit of kit but its a lot heavier than what it would be replacing, Paul G would be the person to ask about it but I think it outweighs the Scorpion.
        So it wouldnt be nearly as easy to deploy although similar european designs are air transported on a regular basis (ERC-90; 1 +1 VBL in a C-160/130) I suspect the Rooikat belongs in a heavier class altogether like the AMX-10RC or the Otobreda
        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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        • #5
          Link below leads to some good pix of the Rooikat.


          http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Afri..._diaporama.htm

          Rooikat 76mm



          Rooikat 76mm



          Rooikat 105mm( edited from my "Whoops" of posting it as 120mm )


          CQ , mistakes are easily made Sir..after all we are only human

          As to Scorpion vs Rooikat combat weights.

          The Scorpion weighs in at 8,073 kg and the Rooikat 76mm weighs 28,000 kg ....so there is indeed a significant difference between the two vehicles both in weight capabilities and deployability.

          Regards

          Måk

          MOD- Images resized. If youre including large images, you can use the html code

          >img src="your url" width="500" <

          (reverse the >< brackets to make it work)

          instead of the VB code to resize the image and keep things tidy. Thanks.
          Last edited by Måk; 27 April 2004, 16:11.

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          • #6
            That looks like a 105mm in a thermal sleeve, its a vehicle that would fill an Infantry support or Tank destroyer role in most parts of the world, it would be awfully heavy for the Cavalry recce role.
            "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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            • #7
              Hey Aidan / Come Quickly...now it's my time to say.."Whoops- I stand corrected" hehehe..see what i was saying about being human. I forgot about the 105mm CQ..mixed it up with the OTO Breda Cenaturo and its new 120mm gun Please please forgive me

              Regards

              Måk

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              • #8
                The Rooikat entered service with the 76mm but there was a planned (hoped upgrade to 105mm) the Centauro is equipped with a high velocity 105mm gun I haven't been keeping up to date with my AFV stuff but I never heard about a 120mm upgrade.
                I know its a big heavy vehicle but woah, a 120 on a wheeled AFV? Are you sure it was a gun
                "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                Comment


                • #9
                  We've been though all of this before, but the Rooikat belongs to a fairly small number of vehicles, the only really comparable one is the Centauro in terms of weight or ability. Its an ideal infantry support vehicle with the 105mm (NATO standard), specially on long range patrol operations.

                  The most likely (sorry, sensible) AML-90 replacement would be the MGS turret on a PIII chassis, as you know, that weighs in at about 20tons (on the 'Stryker' chassis). But its high, is having development problems and will be very vulnerable even to 14.5mm.

                  The optimum would be to keep the Scorps (upgraded) for the airportable element of the RRF, and bring in a number of other, larger and more powerful AFVs for more dangerous ops, leaving the AML-20s for the typical Cavalry work.

                  On deployability, when was the last time Irish AFVs were deployed overseas via aircraft. Eritria? Because if the vast amount of deployments are going to be via ship, then weight becomes less of a problem automatically.

                  THis has kinda drifted off topic, hasn't it?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes CQ..certain as to the Centauro being offered with a upgraded 120mm main gun. Here is a pix




                    Regards
                    Måk

                    Yes Aidan.. i think its time we stopped "Hijacking " this thread
                    Back to the main course..any new pix of our lads in Liberia floating around yet????
                    Last edited by Måk; 27 April 2004, 16:30.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Still its worth another discussion, Mods? Any chance of a split?
                      "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree.

                        Perhaps we could do a proper evaluation, y'know, post some data on what is in service and what it has been and is used for (both in theory and in practice (without breaching the OSA), and then work out possible 'solutions?

                        (Yes, I'm bored)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Broadband in work is great isnt it:D

                          To get back on topic, if you look at An Cosantor's coverage of what is frankly a gucci looking mission compared to Australia or New Zealand Defender magazine's high photo/high testosterone content it explains a lot about the DFs relatively poor public profile.
                          Lets face it while the armys only regular mouthpiece is filled up with stories about staff courses, creative writing competitions and DF community stuff that really belongs in connect (which incidentally featured yet another spread on the DFs new pride and joy, the Learjet); potent support garnering material such as backdated photos from operations and exercises is only available via private collections and the pictures taken by other organisations and made available through their sites.
                          Is the DF above using these photos and getting itself a strong military image, or would that breach our neutrality?
                          "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                          • #14
                            "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

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                            • #15
                              Ok, so we were talking about an AML-90/20 replacement; strikes me that with these rotating conversations that come up every couple of weeks (like 'we gotta get fighters for the aircorps!"), its probably best to have one proper discussion, and then direct people to that thread whenever the subject comes up again. (Right Mods?)

                              These vehicles are theoretically used in the cavalry role, but on deployment generally tend to be used for fire support/convoy escort/overwatch roles. So, presuming that they will be replaced at some stage in the next 10 years (I know 2005 was mentioned, but lets be realistic), what are the alternatives?

                              Given the roles they are used for, lets presume that the 'pure' cavalry role of reconaissance will be taken up either by the LTVs, or the AMLs themselves, and the new AFV would be intended to provide support to forces deployed overseas as well as more 'armoured recce'. It means a heavier more capable vehicle, in short. (the AML90 is only about 5.8 tonnes, and is vulnerable to anything from 7.62mm AP up).

                              There are basically 4 options;

                              (A) Something on a PIII chassis. Could be a LAVIII style Delco turreted, 25-40mm armed, AFV. Tall, vulnerable, but common to what is already in service. Could also mean the GDLS MGS, 105mm overhead weapons station.

                              (B) A heavier wheeled AFV, put simply, Rooikat 105 or Centauro. Heavier and more expensive to run, but much more survivable (both rate better than 20mm AP on the frontal arc as standard) and capable.

                              (C) A tracked AIFV in the Warrior/Bradley/BMP/ASCOD/Marder class. Pick of the bunch would be the CV9040 as currently used by the Swedes in Liberia. As such, the vehicle could carry a small infantry squad (6-7) which would also be useful. Could potentially be ordered with 105 or 120mm guns. In that vein, the M8 AGS would also be a contender.

                              (D) Dammit, why not a tank? Anything from 2nd hand M60A3 or Leo 1A4/A5 to an only slightly used Leo 2A4 (or Strv121) would be obtainable. All would offer very serious advantages in peace support or RRF type missions. But very expensive to run, train on and use. And it would probably be just too 'military'.


                              So what say you?

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