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**FMolloy** · 18 November 2006, 13:38

Originally posted by criodan View Post

Why did the government purchase the trainer air craft?
I ask because we don’t seem to need any fighter jets nor can we afford any that would be of any use to us and the RAF can patrol if need be so why purchase trainer planes when we wont be buying fighter planes?

The trainers are not just there to train 'fighter' pilots, they are there to train all pilots. They are also used to provide a fig-leaf of air cover at certain events and to assist in the training of the Army & the NS as well.

Originally posted by criodan View Post

Couldn’t those who fly the marine patrol plane get trained in the UK or elsewhere and outsource the VIP travel to some local company. Having said that are there any professional companies who can be trusted to carry government officials etc?

Are you suggesting sending the cadets abroad for their basic flight training or sending the pilots abroad for their twin-engined training? The VIP thing might work though.

Originally posted by criodan View Post

Let the Gardaì be responsible for their plane/helicopter(s) and have all related costs come out of their cost centre? It would mean that the money that currently goes into the defence budget would simply be allocated into Phoenix Park budget and the money saved from the purchase of those new air craft could go either within the air corps or elsewhere.

I was under the impression that the Gardaí are footing the bill for the GASU, the AC are doing the flying because legislation prohibits anyone else from piloting state-owned aircraft.

Originally posted by criodan View Post

Could the money have purchased modern helicopters (I know there are some new ones arriving over the coming year but a couple more wouldn’t hurt for the AWR or possibly one of the new ships to be purchased over the coming years could do with one????? either way outsourcing the VIP would free up the new ones at least.

If the AC loses it's ability to train it's own pilots then it'll be very hard to get it back, for that reason & for the reasons I outlined above the PC-9's were a necessary purchase. There's no point in buying helicoptes if you can't train the pilots in the first place.

**ZULU** · 18 November 2006, 17:02

Its a lot harder to fly a heli than a plane. A very good pilot friend of mine said its like trying to dance with a pig on roller skates!

**DeV** · 18 November 2006, 17:39

All AC & GASU aircraft are on the military (as opposed to civil) register AFAIK it means that they can get clearance to fly in areas where civil aircraft are banned.

**FMolloy** · 19 November 2006, 12:54

Originally posted by DeV View Post

All AC & GASU aircraft are on the military (as opposed to civil) register AFAIK it means that they can get clearance to fly in areas where civil aircraft are banned.

They're on the register, that doesn't mean the AC pay for them.

**Itchy** · 19 November 2006, 13:09

How much is the CHC contract worth? When is it up for renewal? and who pays for it?

**DeV** · 19 November 2006, 16:29

Originally posted by Itchy View Post

How much is the CHC contract worth? When is it up for renewal? and who pays for it?

There are 4 helicopters based between Dublin, Shannon, Waterford and Silgo, and 1 available as a reserve.

The renewal was announced on 12 May 2006 by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (DCMR). CHC Helicopter Corporation will provide Marine SAR services untill July 2010 (with the option of extension to 2013).

The new contract will see an upgrading of the current helicopters and a second reserve aircraft being made available.

The contract is worth CDN$74 million (e53 million) over the fixed 3 year term.

The taxpayer pays for the service via the DCMR and the Irish Coast Guard.

Not Found

http://www.chc.ca/press_releases_details.php?rkey=1405125756&view=2123-0&Start=10

**Tucco** · 20 November 2006, 09:39

Em, can I can I ask this question to put to bed a casual reference that is used time and again in relation to Ireland's air defence?

The RAF can patrol if need be????

OK, can someone tell me exactly when Ireland signed up to an agreement with the government of the UK and the OC of the RAF that states we can call on them at a moments notice to patrol and defend Irish airspace?

Can anyone confirm that the overstretched RAF, who are unable to supply sufficient aircraft to Afghanistan and Iraq, are keeping aircraft in reserve in case Ireland needs them?

**Turkey** · 20 November 2006, 11:45

Quick answer; anyone who thinks he RAF can defend our airspace is very optimistic, I do not think that they are capable of defending their own area, at present. But that is only my opinion, however the possibility of a conventional attack is quite low at present, but that may not remain the same.

**Aidan** · 20 November 2006, 12:29

Equally quick answer - the RAF have fighters on ground alert QRA 24/7 to deal with 'emergencies' in their airspace. Our airspace is contiguous to theirs, and all of the really juicy targets on these islands lie on Britain, therefore its a safe assumption that they would be in a position, and interested, to intervene in an emergency 'here' because it would more than likely be an emergency 'there' in a very short period of time (the QRA is based at Coningsby in Lincolnshire for the moment - about 140miles from London - whats the flight time from Dublin west coast of the UK?).

As for formal arrangements, well, if there are any, its not likely anybody here would be privy to them.

Now, could they defend our airspace against a coherent military threat while also defending theirs? Of course not, but that hardly seems likely in the short term.

**criodan** · 23 November 2006, 00:31

Originally posted by FMolloy View Post

The trainers are not just there to train 'fighter' pilots, they are there to train all pilots. They are also used to provide a fig-leaf of air cover at certain events and to assist in the training of the Army & the NS as well.
ok the last part i didnt know about and that appears important but the "fig leaf cover" part, what events?

Are you suggesting sending the cadets abroad for their basic flight training or sending the pilots abroad for their twin-engined training? The VIP thing might work though.
Yes I am, if and only if it is financially viable to do so.

I was under the impression that the Gardaí are footing the bill for the GASU, the AC are doing the flying because legislation prohibits anyone else from piloting state-owned aircraft.
I f this is correct and I truly cant comment, there's room for change in the legislation I should think?

If the AC loses it's ability to train it's own pilots then it'll be very hard to get it back, for that reason & for the reasons I outlined above the PC-9's were a necessary purchase. There's no point in buying helicoptes if you can't train the pilots in the first place.

I am not sure we ever need "to get it back" and what pilots are fying the new helicopters over and where did they get the training? again if financially viable why not do it. this isnt having a go at anyone, just wondering if anyone can comment on cost etc

**FMolloy** · 24 November 2006, 20:52

So you'd be quite happy for all AC pilots to be trained by third parties? No basic flight or advanced flight training, no training of instuctors, no training of Army & NS personnel?

The pilots flying the AW-139's are Ac pilots who went to Italy for some familiarisation, this is what happens when the AC gets new aircraft.

**Rooster** · 20 January 2007, 12:52

Originally posted by Turkey View Post

Quick answer; anyone who thinks he RAF can defend our airspace is very optimistic, I do not think that they are capable of defending their own area, at present. But that is only my opinion, however the possibility of a conventional attack is quite low at present, but that may not remain the same.

Am pretty sure that if a fighter or two were needed in Irish airspace for a short time that there would be a couple of Tornadoes or Typhoons over here in a short space of time, if needs be they could be supported from Aldergrove. I take it that your talking about a 9/11 type scenario? if so then I'm sure no-one would object to a few British aircraft over the 26 counties for the common good, a bit like when Irish or British SAR helicopters encroach in each others airspace, its not like we're at war anymore is it?

**GoneToTheCanner** · 20 January 2007, 21:15

Hi all
Criodan's points are worth good comment....the Don could perfectly well cut it's costs by having it's trainee pilots screened by civilian organisations, just like the mighty USAF. If it's good enough for the greatest air force in the world, it's good enough for the Don.....the trend is toward civilianisation of any viable part of the Don, which is why the maintenance of the Garda helis is carried out by civvies.....the prohibition of State aircraft being flown by anything other than Donners is cobblers, quite simply because any true Garda pilot would be, by default, a servant of the State. Don pilots fly the GASU helis because the Don bosses have fought vigourously to prevent anyone else getting their hands on the helis. Ralph James' first priority is to his pilots, by design and by tradition. The rest of the human race manages just fine with civil or police pilots because they have no self-serving agenda....the AW139s are not true military helicopters, just warmed-over civil-certified aircraft and are too small. The minimum size should have been a Puma-class aircraft.....the Don could do a lot more to be truly efficient and effective, but internal and external politics prevail and making change is like trying to move a mountain.
regards
GttC

**Itchy** · 21 January 2007, 12:45

Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

....the Don could perfectly well cut it's costs by having it's trainee pilots screened by civilian organisations, just like the mighty USAF...

Eh...PARC screen potential cadets, is that what you mean?

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