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  • Civillianising the AC?

    Maybe the remaining dauphin 247 should have been kept for vip transport alone. Surely they could have cannibalised the others to keep her flying and therefor free the new helis for training/army co-op. Id imagine the cost would be minimal.

  • #2
    Persoanlly I think the MATs helo time should be bought from civil companies in order to show that heli time costs. Each MATS helo flight reduces airfarme hours available and takes machine s from the DF training loop..if individual departments were made to reconcile ministerial transport from their budget ..maybe helo flights would be more confined.

    might get more use from their mercs if the individual departments were charged for helo time..reckon machines would gather hours far slower.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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    • #3
      Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
      Persoanlly I think the MATs helo time should be bought from civil companies in order to show that heli time costs. Each MATS helo flight reduces airfarme hours available and takes machine s from the DF training loop..if individual departments were made to reconcile ministerial transport from their budget ..maybe helo flights would be more confined.

      might get more use from their mercs if the individual departments were charged for helo time..reckon machines would gather hours far slower.

      Totally agreed, but will any shower that get into government implement this?

      Are the costs of MATS published each year ? Or is it covered up and assigned as general air corps running expenses?

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      • #4
        No, MATS hours as a percentage of flying hours are detailed in the annual Defence Forces report.


        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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        • #5
          the whole MATS thing should be dropped from the AC altogether.

          it is a waste of resources that could be better spent allowing the AC to carry out more support roles for the army.

          let the gov. use civvy helis if they want to open their mates shops or supermarkets!
          if they are going foreign use the national airline, promote it as an irish asset and use it to attract foreign visitors to the country.

          the money spent on the MATS learjets, gulfstream would keep the AC flying army support for a long time. it probably would have even got a true medium lift heli as so many in the AC and on this board would like to see.
          Fate whispers to the warrior, "There is a storm coming"

          And the warrior whispers back "I am the storm".

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          • #6
            Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
            Persoanlly I think the MATs helo time should be bought from civil companies in order to show that heli time costs. Each MATS helo flight reduces airfarme hours available and takes machine s from the DF training loop..if individual departments were made to reconcile ministerial transport from their budget ..maybe helo flights would be more confined.

            might get more use from their mercs if the individual departments were charged for helo time..reckon machines would gather hours far slower.
            Never thought of it like that. And the more I think of it, the more I think it's a very
            good idea...
            "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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            • #7
              Thats how forums work really some body puts forward the bones of an idea and others develop it....now how to pass the concept up the line so it becomes feasible.

              lack of accountability...if the AC were to present each department with an annual bill...or lets say if the department of Defence were questioning why i.e. aeroplane x was costing x to run if some one in the AC..sent them an actual costing of the useage per department...and then let the DoD. jump on someone case because their minister..him or her was percieved to making more use of the facility than others.

              In the case of say minister x and his entourage wanting to visit some delegation in africa..how much would it cost annually to charter a similar aircraft rather than encroach on the DoDs commitments and budgets..or even if the MATs type AC was actually required at all?

              After the SAR thing was chartered out...why not MATs...release funds for military roles as opposed to air taxis?
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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              • #8
                After the SAR thing was chartered out...why not MATs...release funds for military roles as opposed to air taxis?

                Why not include the GASU as well ??

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Vmax View Post
                  After the SAR thing was chartered out...why not MATs...release funds for military roles as opposed to air taxis?

                  Why not include the GASU as well ??
                  They'd have to get rid of the GASU aircraft & lease others instead, since no government aircraft can be flown by a civvy.
                  Last edited by FMolloy; 6 December 2006, 13:48.
                  "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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                  • #10
                    personally i dont think civilian outside companies should/will be utilised in MATS. would it not be considered a security threat? to have pilots (that relatively little is known about....unlike our inhouse trained boys) transporting our ministers. well i suppose some people wouldnt mind that for certain ministers!!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FMolloy View Post
                      They'd have to get rid of the GASU aircraft & lease others instead, since no government aircraft can be flown by a civvy.

                      Now can we please stay on topic?
                      Not technicaly true:wink:
                      Last edited by FMolloy; 6 December 2006, 13:48.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by squigs View Post
                        personally i dont think civilian outside companies should/will be utilised in MATS. would it not be considered a security threat? to have pilots (that relatively little is known about....unlike our inhouse trained boys) transporting our ministers. well i suppose some people wouldnt mind that for certain ministers!!
                        Civilian pilots and companies have been used from time to time to transport our esteemed leaders when Aer corp heli's or crews were not availalble, pacticularly night and IFR flights. It,s not that hard to do background checks on flight crew. In fact it is a civie company that is in charge of the royal heli flight in the UK, taken over from the military some years back, as I understand it!

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                        • #13
                          The mid lift upgrade of the Dauphin fllet would have cost €1.5 million per aircraft (around 5 years ago) it would probably cost a lot more now, plus no guarantee of spares due to the nature of the avionics.

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                          • #14
                            Hi all
                            The Don has used contract pilots on the GIV in the past.The rule about non-carriage of Govt personnel is bollox. After all, how do the lads get to Liberia? In big jets flown by civvies, of course.Most of the Don's functions could easily/cheaply/more efficiently by civvies. GASU could be turned over to the Gardai in a heartbeat.It is deeply ironic that the AC have recieved their training and equipment from police forces in the UK, all of whom are run by civvies.Civilianisation of functions is, of course, not wanted by the DF/Gardai/Prison Service, all of whom have their own agendas.
                            regards
                            GttC

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                              Hi all
                              The Don has used contract pilots on the GIV in the past.The rule about non-carriage of Govt personnel is bollox. After all, how do the lads get to Liberia? In big jets flown by civvies, of course.Most of the Don's functions could easily/cheaply/more efficiently by civvies. GASU could be turned over to the Gardai in a heartbeat.It is deeply ironic that the AC have recieved their training and equipment from police forces in the UK, all of whom are run by civvies.Civilianisation of functions is, of course, not wanted by the DF/Gardai/Prison Service, all of whom have their own agendas.
                              regards
                              GttC
                              An example of this also would be SK 257( I think that was the reg of the S-61), Military reg heli, aer corp crews front and back been trained by civie crews front and back.PC- 9's, 135's, 139's all had civie instructors and safety pilots on board for transits from the factories back to the Don.

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