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Cessna Replacement - The Options

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  • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Hi there
    The McAlpine contract is worth about E1.2M, which is not small potatos in this day and age.The rumour of CHC closing a base came from a CHC man, so a contract from somewhere else might keep him in a job.As for actual maintenance, if the aircraft are maintained by EASA qualified and rated personnel to civil standards(just like the MATS aircraft), then there is no issue.
    regards
    GttC
    €1.2 million is a small amount of money in the run of things, having said that look after the cents and the euros will look after themselves.

    CHC provide contracted SAR from Dublin Airport, Shannon Airport, Silgo Airport & Waterford Airport (all of which provide important SAR cover).

    Maintenance - that isn't the problem, the problem would be personnel to do the task. http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/do...25735B0032C9A3

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    • Hi Dev,
      The laugh was at the rumor, not the loss of a SAR base. It just isnt going to happen this side of 2012, then to win a contract everything is fair game.

      GTTC,
      For the aircraft to remain on the civil register or be re-reged at a later date they MUST be maintained by a JAR 145 approved maintenance facility regardless of the techs qualifications. The Don is not a JAR 145 approved organisation. Not sure where you got your info on the MATS aircraft but if it is purely based on individuals qualifications rather then the organisations approvals then I wouldnt like to be selling them on.

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      • If the Air Corps are stuck with the MATS job - which seems to be the case - then here's a very cheap option: the Embraer Phenom 100, one of the new breed of 'Very Light Jets', costs just €2million.



        According to www.flightglobal.com, "The Pakistan air force has taken delivery of the first of four Embraer Phenom 100 very light jets on order. The handover marks the first delivery of an Embraer type to Pakistan, where it will be used to transport government officials. This is also the first Phenom 100 to be operated by a government," says Embraer, adding: "The country's air force chose this model after carrying out a detailed analysis of the aircraft's performance, comfort, technology, acquisition price, and operating costs, among others. The six-seat Phenom 100 has a range of 2,185km (1,180nm), which enables it to fly nonstop from Pakistan's capital Islamabad to the country's financial capital Karachi or to Kathmandu, Nepal, says Embraer.

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        • Originally posted by easyrider View Post
          If the Air Corps are stuck with the MATS job - which seems to be the case - then here's a very cheap option: the Embraer Phenom 100, one of the new breed of 'Very Light Jets', costs just €2million.



          According to www.flightglobal.com, "The Pakistan air force has taken delivery of the first of four Embraer Phenom 100 very light jets on order. The handover marks the first delivery of an Embraer type to Pakistan, where it will be used to transport government officials. This is also the first Phenom 100 to be operated by a government," says Embraer, adding: "The country's air force chose this model after carrying out a detailed analysis of the aircraft's performance, comfort, technology, acquisition price, and operating costs, among others. The six-seat Phenom 100 has a range of 2,185km (1,180nm), which enables it to fly nonstop from Pakistan's capital Islamabad to the country's financial capital Karachi or to Kathmandu, Nepal, says Embraer.
          Why would they want this?its virtually useless as we still have the learjet, which has alot of life left in it yet, besides the emphasis would be on replacing the G4, which in itself imho, a complete waste of money.You could buy a MLH from Agusta for the money required or just pop over to the Russians and buy 4-5 for the same price.

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          • Originally posted by pilatus View Post
            Why would they want this?its virtually useless as we still have the learjet, which has alot of life left in it yet, besides the emphasis would be on replacing the G4, which in itself imho, a complete waste of money.You could buy a MLH from Agusta for the money required or just pop over to the Russians and buy 4-5 for the same price.
            I was thinking about the need for a King Air replacement. The Phenom 100 costs just €2 million, not €20 million. You wouldn't even get a new Beechcraft for that money.

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            • Originally posted by easyrider View Post
              I was thinking about the need for a King Air replacement. The Phenom 100 costs just €2 million, not €20 million. You wouldn't even get a new Beechcraft for that money.
              But the fact it has jet engines is enough to sink that idea as it will be seen as a government transport.You wont get a new Kingair for that money but you'll still get a nice seond hand one for that price with 15-20years left on the airframe.

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              • If it was replacing the King Air as a multi-engine trainer would it not have to be a turbo-prop?

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                • The Phenom 100 is for executive transport, the king air replacement surely has to be a jack of all trades, fulfilling training for Casa Crews light transport missions, etc.

                  As for replacing the cessna, what about the 208? The Iraqi airforce has even ordered some fitted with advanced ISR equpiment and capable of carrying Hellfire missiles, along with King Air 350ER again fitted for ISR, useful in places like Chad I would have thought.
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by paul g; 28 March 2009, 22:17.

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                  • Didnt a 208 crash in clonbollogue recently?


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                    • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                      Didnt a 208 crash in clonbollogue recently?
                      Not sure, I'm not an expert but there are 1500 of them in service, many with militaries, and it would seem to be a sensible option for the air corps to replace the cessna `172, and the many duties they perform.
                      Last edited by paul g; 28 March 2009, 22:52.

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                      • It needs to be twin engined.

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                        • Bin the concept of maintaining both single and multi-engined fleets.

                          the multi's should provide the teeth - the CASA's and a new King 350/ER fleet, based on MP and ISR roles - that is useful to the state at home (fisheries/mineral resource protection, maritime policing and internal security) and overseas (ISR and C3).

                          the singles provide nothing but training for themselves, the AC produces so few aircrew because of its size that it would be far cheaper to train crews commercially to multi standard and them bring them to operational effectiveness through an OCU.

                          the singles are of no use to man nor beast, and the argument that "we must keep single engine currency for the day we buy fast jets" is balls, firstly because Ireland will never buy fast jets, and secondly because even on a completely ME fleet, the crew will all learn to fly on SE's, and conversion from ME to SE operational types isn't beyond the wit of man - even the RAF manage it.

                          ditch the 'in house' flying training - either go commercial or send them to the RAF - ditch the PC-9 'willy-wavers' and Cessnas, ramp up the side of the IAC that can actually be useful - and whisper it quietly - actually deployable. Focus on roles you currently underdake and expand them within those feilds - Maritime Patrol, Intelligence Surveillence and Reconaisence and maybe even Air Transport using types you already have.
                          Last edited by ropebag; 30 March 2009, 11:42.

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                          • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                            Didnt a 208 crash in clonbollogue recently?

                            There was a crash in Clonbullogue a couple of weeks ago..it was a turbine 206, complete write off. Rumour has it ran out of fuel. They also crashed their Porter in 2008. Not having the a great time with turbine ops down there.

                            Guys a twin engined machine is overkill for a Cessna 172 replacement. Two engines-twice the maintenance. You couldn't allow newbie pilots off on their own as they do do now in the Cessnas and instantly the number of airstrips you could operate them from would be cut by half in one foul swoop. It is only a Cessna, and it's simplicity is one of the primary reasons it is 38 years in the Army Co-Op role. Forget what PWC said...how long ago was that report written?
                            Last edited by Jetjock; 30 March 2009, 12:24.

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                            • Some Cessna/Beechcraft replacement options:

                              Replace the Cessnas with EC120B helicopters; 6 of them at around €1.2 million each, and they're relatively cheap and easy to operate and maintain. Can do anything a Cessna can in terms of army co-op, and a lot more besides. Could also do the helicopter training and some of the VIP transport and release the EC135s for more useful work.

                              If there is a continuing need for multi-engine training, a couple of Diamond DA42s at €500,000 each. They're the standard aircraft used by flying training schools for this purpose, also cheap to operate. If there's a need for ISR aircraft, then the MPP version of the DA42 could be considered. Costs around €3 million, but that would be cheaper than a new King Air with similar sensors, and they're already in operation with the RAF, so they have military cred.

                              The AC needs to get into the tactical transport business. But these days the money isn't there for two or three C-27Js or C-295s - €25-30 million each?. Start with a few CASA C212s, or PZL M-28s, costing less than €5 million each.

                              Total cost of the above is around €35 million. Spread that over five years and it's only €7 million a year, or 0.7% of the Defence budget.

                              As for the PC-9s, they do seem to be a waste as trainers, unless they're to be used as a serious light attack aircraft.

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                              • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                                Forget what PWC said...how long ago was that report written?
                                circa 1998-2001, funny PWC said the Cessnas need to replaced by a twin engine aircraft for safety reasons as it routinely has to fly over urban areas!

                                ditch the 'in house' flying training ... Focus on roles you currently underdake and expand them within those feilds - Maritime Patrol, Intelligence Surveillence and Reconaisence and maybe even Air Transport using types you already have.
                                You do realise there is a recession and the Government are trying to cut billions from the public finances. Your proposal would leave the AC with probably less than 12 aircraft! And no hope of purchasing any more for proberly at least 5-10 years!

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