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  • #31
    Aidan

    A, pre-1940, nobody expected the germans to reach the french coast, Ireland was caught completly by surprise, as was everybody else.

    B. When the merde did hit the fan, and we scrabled around to buy things, the British couldn't sell us anything because they were desperate for supplies themselves.

    C) the british didn't give a shit about the Czechs, that why they sold them our, while it did give the brits an extra year to prepare, it also gave Hitler valuable time to prepare as well, with Czech Skoda tanks


    D. Talking about light fighters is like wondering what would happen if Cameron Diaz walked into my bedroom tonight and told me she wanted to have my babies, it ain't going to happen in my life time.

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    • #32
      You'd be surprised, (not about the fighters though) I really just started this topic in order to have a nice nerding section about these aircraft, maybe with a few pretty pictures; So please if you want to make serious points do it in the think tank at you know where
      "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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      • #33
        Ooops, sorry C-Q. Couldn't resist. I wuz bored ...

        Sorry to hear about the lack of Cameron Diaz in your life Paul, she just won't stay away from me. She just keeps ringing, calling round, begging ...

        She just won't take a hint, dammit!

        Drifting back to reality for a moment, regarding the 1930s thing, well, there was a war a comin' anyway, forecastable Blitzkrieg or not, and no one here was doing anything to prepare until it was much too late(not that we could have afforded all that much anyway). The point stands. In a modern war you 'run what you brung'.

        And C-Q, if you want to nerd about airplanes, try this as a source;

        http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us

        When it works, of course

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        • #34
          Yikes, I never want to be that much of a nerd
          "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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          • #35
            Saying that while saving the link of course:confused:
            "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

            Comment


            • #36
              Ah Aidan, used to have that problem when I was younger, but were Cameron to walk in i think Stefania might object.

              Irish defence planning pre-ww2 should be taken in the context of the time, nobody expected the french army to colapse so quickly, and compared to countries like Denemark and Holland the D.F were actually in quite a good shape taking into account the economic war etc.


              As for light fighters, there is an obsession with air defence on this board that really isn't waranted. Dublin isn't on the wider scheme a target for Osama bin laiden, we face no conventional threat from a a soverign state with an air force, and there are far more pressing needs. It would be nice to have some, especially for ground forces training, but having had the chance to look through the thread in more detail, (was away for Easter), the point aidan raises about EU-RRF support is apt. Basically ireland should be capable of deploying two battalion groups overseas, supporting at least one of them with helicopters. And when the AC can't move an infantry platoon or support realistic training exercises, talking about fighters is about the same as me wondering what would happen if Cameron was joined by Sarah Michelle Gellar, I'd love it to happen, I even think and hope for it, but then again.


              Anyway, something to ponder, Columbia has an airforce, and Spain recently offered them 8/10 Mirage F-1 that they acquired from Qutar and upgraded but hardly used, all for free, but Columbia didn't want them because the cost of operating them would be too much for the capability they offered.


              Anyway from the top of my head, this is the air corps I'd like to see in 2010

              8 PC-9
              3 Cn-235MPA
              1 C-295
              6 Cessna Caravans
              1 Gulfstream IV
              1 Citation III
              10 S-92IU ( 6 SAR, 4 S-92IU)
              8 Utility helicopters


              Now that is achievable and minimalist, and we all know deep down that the A.C is not going to be anyway that good.

              edited in case the wife ever reads
              Last edited by paul g; 23 April 2003, 20:01.

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              • #37
                Aidan: "Really? Are you sure? First of all, wheres ‘there’? Secondly, are we to expect to have an aircraft ready on the ramp all the time?".

                Well, 'there' might be a vital global plant Leixlip.

                Secondly, why should Typoons suddenly come swooping in from the east. (Apart from them not being in service) Would they be on patrol in the UK in case Ireland is attacked so they could come swiftly to our aid? - would they F...... so, yes a jet from Baldonnel would get there quicker. Jeez.


                Thirdly - there's zero chance of us getting anything even remotely more able than an L-159. There's isn't even the sniff of such a plan in the Department of Defence.

                One jet on stand-by in Ireland shouldn't be too big a deal. Though Norad had just 4 along the entire US eastern seaboard on 9/11.

                As I said there's no big super power off the coast ready to attack with all of its advanced military might. So, light combat jets would be adequate for Ireland. As, actual combat is highly unlikely. In its entire history, the Irish Air Corps has never intercepted a single aircraft.
                :p

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                • #38
                  Don't worry C-Q, I won't tell anyone. And anyway, you're in good company.

                  Tucco ...

                  Well, 'there' might be a vital global plant Leixlip

                  It might, but tell me, what terrorist is going to want to waste their time (and their life, most likely) attacking a boring old factory? The 9/11 attacks (which unsurprisingly haven't led to a spate of similar incidents) were predicated on they're being very very public. The physical damage and loss of life was a mere side effect of the real intent, to drive the point home that America is vulnerable, and to do it on national television, and then to force a response. And if your goal was to cause maximum economic disruption, there are many targets which would cause much more damage. Simply put, we have no targets worthy of similar attention. I'm sure you could find some on mainland Europe and in the UK, but there really are none here.

                  "Secondly, why should Typoons suddenly come swooping in from the east. (Apart from them not being in service) Would they be on patrol in the UK in case Ireland is attacked so they could come swiftly to our aid? - would they F...... so, yes a jet from Baldonnel would get there quicker. Jeez. "

                  Not necessarily, as of now we know that the RAF have F3s on a ready ramp to defend London. Also, our friendly suicide bomber would have to 'come from' somewhere. Either West or East (If its a domestic flight, then no plane is going to catch it in time anyway). Presuming that theres some form of warning (cos if there isn't, its academic) our engagement radius might extend over most of the UK and several hundred klicks out into the Atlantic. In terms of flight time for a modern jet airliner, we're talking very little time and relatively long distances. That means any interceptor will need to be fast. Fast enough to spool up, launch, locate, track, engage, positively ID, and, in the worst case, open fire. If you've got a 'light-fighter, 'turning the corner' on a airliner or biz-jet coming at you is going to be a nightmare (mainly because your going to need all the energy you've got just to keep up once you do get the nose around). These engagements have to be set up over a long distance, otherwise they just don't work. If our putative suicide bomber come from the East, and theres a warning, he'll have a pair of grey shadows, bearing Skyflashes, who /will/ do him. If the threat is from the West, the same applies. They can be 200km off the west coast at 35,000 feet, waiting for a plane to arrive, a lot faster than anything wheezing off from Baldonnell.

                  Don't have precise figures (obviously) but outside of a fairly small ring around Baldonnell, they can get there faster. Its as simple as that. And once they get 'there', they have the weapons and radar to do something about it ...

                  And the Typhoon is entering service this year. The first production models are flying now.



                  *Edited to remove possibly obscene material about Cameron Diaz, Alyson Hannigan, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Liv Tyler, Elize Dushku and this girl I used to know.
                  Aidan
                  Closed Account
                  Last edited by Aidan; 24 April 2003, 11:50.

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                  • #39
                    Ooh Eliza Dushku...

                    As I said I wanted this to be purely about aircraft, so lets just forget about Irelands case and talk about the aircraft themselves.
                    Tucco an F-5 costs about the same as an L-159 and is a much more respectable aircraft...why buy an untested unwanted converted trainer which is based on technology older than the F-5, which is a battle proven aircraft with many satisfied customers.
                    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                    • #40
                      Agreed, but as I said the chances of getting anything much fancier than a PC-9 are almost non existant anyway.

                      Also, as Aidan has so accurately pointed out the fact that we're the only country in the entire world that has no need of defence makes it even more unlikely that we'll ever get interceptors.

                      However, I think I'm accurate in my presumption that if one were to simply look at likely targets ,purely from an Irish point of view, the plant in Lexilip would quite likely be on it. But then Aidan says I'm wrong, so I must be.

                      So the likely requirement of airbourne defence needs only to be light and effective enough to fly CAP around air exlcusion zones.

                      So that's it then, Aidan is absolutely correct in everything he says and is beyond reproach. In fact his arguments and points are so well made that he is simply fabulous.

                      Now, back to the discussion on the types of aircraft that would be nice.

                      (taking account of the fact that the RAF have a whole section of their on order Typhoons set aside for the defence of Ireland, at least that's what Aidan thinks, so it must be true):D

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                      • #41
                        No need to get catty, as I said there is a thread for the discussion of these things elsewhere.
                        I also feel uncomfortable with the fact that we are reliant on the RAF without any formal arrangement for our defence, and just because I'm not arguing alernatives now it doesn't mean that I won't come back with new arguments at a later stage.
                        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                        • #42
                          Aahhh, finally the respect I deserve :D

                          Somebody give the man a map and a clue.

                          C-Q, if its gotta be anything, some F-5Es in the short term leading up to a netcentric setup with MAKO (and AMRAAMS) in the medium term. In our climate, anything without a proper radar is a toy.

                          Your completely right when you say the F-5 is battle proven, the real story of its use in IPGW (Iran-Iraq) is only coming out now, but it's main use has been in CAS, with a little A-A on the side. Weather is the key, the basic radar fitted (Emerson AN/APQ-153) doesn't really allow for proper detection and tracking, something like 10 miles (IIRC), there was a later radar (AN/APQ-159?) which was better but I can't remember by how much. So most operators have upgraded the radar (some have used the Griffo, others an Elta unit), so, in this hypothetical situation, we'd probably have to do something similar, or buy already upgraded aircraft. Which might be tough for obvious reasons.

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                          • #43
                            I think it's a shame we have to rely on the Brits.... Me thinks if Adolf rolled into Dublin our Government(s) would have taken "Defence" a bit more seriously!!

                            I am amazed we havent got out the begging bowl & asked the US for some free gear..... GW ya can drop it off in Shannon on the way to Iraq!!

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                            • #44
                              At one stage someone tried fitting aan APG-66, but I think it cost more than the rest of the aircraft put together.

                              Bud Fox, the US and the "Brits" have offered us very capable aircraft for delivery price before....several times in fact, the fact is that the government can't or won't make the infrastructural investment or pay for the running costs, where as an F-5E costs very little to run and is one of the lowest maintenance aircraft going.
                              "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                              • #45
                                ... It is low maintenance, but parts for those J-85s are not going to be around forever, unless you want to see yourself depending on such luminaries as the Iranian government and their 'unofficial' copies. Unless you could lay your hands on a stockpile of parts along with a 'buy'.

                                Think Taiwan wanted to put an APG-67 into their Tiger IIs as part of an upgrade (same radar as the Ching-Kuo?), worked too except they didn't have the cash to update the fleet.

                                Interesting piece of data, Chilian F-5 Tiger III (!) have the ability to launch R-Darter and Derby AAM (including a HMS)-radar is the Elta E/L-2032. And a datalink, which is nice. Singapores (the S/Ts you mentioned earlier in the thread) have AMRAAM launch ability, even if they don't have missiles yet. Nice.

                                Was at home over the weekend, found a picture I drew of a Tiger II wearing IAC markings ... in about 1988. Very scary.

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