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Flight Plans ( split from Search for Missing Aircraft - Wicklow )

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  • Flight Plans ( split from Search for Missing Aircraft - Wicklow )

    Flightpalns are required for crossing through CTRs or operating in Confined airspace and are noramlly closed when the transiting leg of the flight is over
    Would that be for an IFR flight plan, as opposed to a VFR flight plan? I've not taken IFR yet, but over this side I've been taught to close my VFR plan (by telephone, there's a 1-877 number) after landing, not when near the end.

    NTM
    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

  • #2
    Do pilots not check in with the airport while on approach, before closing the flightplan?
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead

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    • #3
      Cal, any flight VFR or IFR into a CTR needs a flight plan. It's a little bit less restrictive in the States. This flight crossed a FIR(Flight Information Region) boundary-ie the point at which UK and Irish controllled airspace meet. It is not to be confused with territorial airspace and is just an ATC boundary. For this reason alone it would need a flight plan.

      Victor that is not necessarily the case. The flight plan closure is requested by the pilot when in uncontrolled Class G airspace at his or her discretion. When flying to an uncontrolled airfield first contact is made after requesting and being granted a frequency change. As this flight was already in uncontrolled airspace and had closed its plan it would merely have to inform ATC of the change to the new frequency. Kilrush is uncontrolled and it is an unmonitored freq used for traffic info between aircraft and possibly if there is someone on the ground to advise runway in use, wind direction etc.

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      • #4
        Flight plans are manadatory even for VFR while transiting CTRs although from memory it hasn't always been the way and The U.S. is different in that.

        If your going into controlled aerospace above level 55 flight plans are mandatory ..I think..GTTc would be the guy to confirm that one.

        I'm working on twenty year old knowledge on this as opposed to current info

        Do pilots not check in with the airport while on approach, before closing the flightplan?
        Really depends on the aerodrome. differnt types.

        Alot of the smaller private fields don't offer AFISO or ATC or even radion assitance.

        Your flight plan is normally closed with ATC when leaving controlled airspace which is normally below FL 55 or 5000ft QNH. Flightplans can be closed while airborne or on the ground depending on the category of airspace you are operating in.

        Smaller airports operate CTRs normally out to about 10 DME up to 5000ft and given the PPR requirement of most airports , flightplans are required.

        Again I'm open to correction on this.
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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        • #5
          Warning: Thread hijack.

          Interesting. Given these differences in detail, would I need to take some sort of certification course before flying in Ireland on my US license?

          NTM
          Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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          • #6
            Murph,

            All correct bar the upper limit of Class G. Its FL75.

            Smaller airports such as Waterford,Galway, Sligo or Donegal are Class C and require flight plans. A call to the tower before you depart is always a good idea and is always appreciated, even with a flight plan filed. Its just common courtesy anyway.

            Cal, there may be some limitations, GTTC is the man to ask.
            Last edited by Jetjock; 30 October 2008, 22:45.

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            • #7
              I'm not saying anyone necessarily did anything wrong, but I think the situation where a flight leaves ATC and doesn't need to check in with someone else seems to have problems.

              Isn't landing one of the most dangerous stages of flight?
              Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead

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              • #8
                Even more interesting differences between the two sides of the ocean, then. Around here, class G (Uncontrolled) tends to stop at 1,200AGL. Class E is more "Controlled if you want it", but there's not requirement for it. Flight plans need not be opened, but must be filed for flights longer than 50 miles. You open it if you're doing something dramatic like a very long flight or going over mountains. Above E is A, at 18k, which is IFR only and must be controlled with flight plans. You've got to talk to the tower at a D airfield around here.

                NTM
                Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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                • #9
                  Victor,
                  A flight operating entirely in Class G can be conducted quite legally without talking to any ATC at all. In Class G, if you do decide to talk to ATC the only service available is called Flight Information Service, ie Information of other aircraft is provided, but separation is not and is solely the responsibility of the pilot. It is always good airmanship to get Flight Info, but you dont have to. Shannon are the main providers of this low level service and it covers most of the country on freuency 127.5 . Dublin also provides a service in the Dublin area , as does Cork Approach for the flight training area south of their zone.

                  Cal is probably used to the excellent FLight Following service in the US.

                  The reason that on leaving ATC you do not need to speak to anyone is more often than not there IS no one on the frequency of the airfield you are visiting. If there is no one on the frequency, this is also a pointer that there are no other items of traffic using the airport and it is safe to proceed. You still announce your approach, join and each leg of the circuit on the radio. You are always vigilant, despite geting no response. If there is another aircraft on frequency position information will be exchanged and mutual separation accomplished.

                  A flight between two such airfields, that nevers enters controlled airspace, say Birr to Abbeyshrule, does not require a flight plan and does not need to talk to ATC. If your flight required you to transit a Control Zone at say Shannon you would need yo file, but as soon as that portion of the flight was complete, you could close the plan. If you were landing at Shannon your flight plan would remain active until leaving the runway at Shannon.

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                  • #10
                    What "are the rules" about closing flt plans, when is it suppose to be done.
                    Surely an issue must the capacity of the aviation authorities to monitor Flts over the state, How can they monitor possible drug smuggling using planes if a pilot just closes his flt plan, Dont want to make an unnecessary noise in relation, maybe another thread would eb appropriate but would like to know how flts are monitored.

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                    • #11
                      Surely an issue must the capacity of the aviation authorities to monitor Flts over the state, How can they monitor possible drug smuggling using planes
                      That's what radars are for. If an airplane is flying in from overseas and you track that it doesn't land at a sanctioned airport, you might be on to something worth sending Customs and Excise to.

                      NTM
                      Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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                      • #12
                        Radars? What are they?


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                        • #13
                          Goldie, there is significant Primary radar coverage and total Secondary radar coverage.
                          There is a distinct difference between both types of systems.

                          Primary radar operates exactly as you would imagine a radar system works. An array emits a signal, it is reflected off an object and it is displayed as a return on a radar screen. Bearing and dstance information is provided, but no pressure altitude.There are three Primary radar sites in Ireland, at Cork, Shannon and Dublin.

                          Secondary Surveillance Radar operates on a different principle. It is a passive system. It is totally reliant on an aircraft having a transponder, and in turn having it's transponder turned on. The radar sends a signal/interrogation which is received by the aircraft's transponder. This signal is replied to by the transponder and the "return" is displayed on the radar screen. There are a number of mdes of operation. In Mode A the return is merely displayed on the radar screen with the squalk code-a four digit identifier that is manually entered in the transponder. There is no altitude information with this mode, however there is altitude information returned with Mode C. This is the most common mode. Aircraft's pressure altitude is encoded and transmitted digitally with the transponder return. There are at least seven SSR sites in Ireland.

                          There is a common squalk code for VFR flights; 7000. For flight planned flights and aircraft operating within controlled airspace, a squalk code is assigned to the aircraft by ATC and entered by the pilot. There are also common squalk codes for emergency(mayday), urgency and hijack.

                          SSR is totally reliant on the transponder of the aircraft being switched on-otherwise there will be no return on the screen.

                          Primary radar is only used as a back up to SSR when an aircraft is in distress(loss of electrics) ,it's transponder has failed , or it doesn't have one in the first place.
                          Primary civilian radar operates on the same principles as military radar but with one distinct difference. Military radars are constantly monitored whereas civilian PSR is merely a used as a back up if a problem exists that precludes the use of SSR.
                          Last edited by Jetjock; 29 October 2008, 21:40.

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                          • #14
                            Would primary radar be much use for aircraft flying in the shadow of the Wickla mountains?


                            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                            • #15
                              Would primary radar be much use for aircraft flying in the shadow of the Wickla mountains?
                              No

                              If an aircraft is transponder equipped SSR can be used but the wicklow mountains etc give off too much clutter for primary. plus its line of site , it can only see you if nothing is in the way.

                              The radar sends a signal/interrogation which is received by the aircraft's transponder
                              Commonly know as a 'squawk number' with some differnt numbers indicating distress or hijack

                              Jectjock has fairly comprehensively answered the questions and relit some of my fading brain cells on the subject.

                              take a look at the Dauphin crash in Tramore in 1999, Primary radar from shannon or cork couldn't pick up on the helo due to the surrounding terrian. no SSR cover.

                              Waterford has ILS , NDB , DME . Localiser, Papis , Vasi's but all these are approach instrumentation and locational devices but will not phyiscally identify an aircraft.

                              Should the aircraft be suitably equiped a signal return will give its location and heading but in audible form as opposed to visual.

                              IFR as opposed to VFR , vfr is visual flight daylight only.. however there is a night VFR rating in the states but is not legal here.

                              You can also have an IMC rating as opposed to IFR rating.. one being Instrument meterolical rating the other being Instrument flight rating.. big differnce as one allows to fly at night where the other allows you to fly on instruments during marginal wx conditions but only during daylight,

                              Brain Tired!
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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