Rotor leasing clean up on the Dauphins

[DeV]

It would work out cheaper & more cost effective to buy the more capable AW139, than upgrade the remaining Dauphins and then have to replace them in a 10 years or so when the Government may not have the money to do it.

The Dauphins urgently needed to be replaced/upgraded, the instrumentation was one of the contributor factors to the Tramore accident, read the AAIU report on the crash!

[Aidan]

From Janes;

"Four new Eurocopter AS 365N3 Dauphin light utility helicopters are being delivered to the Army Air Corps (AAC) component of the UK Special Aviation Wing. The first helicopter arrived in October after it was transferred from UK civil aircraft registry to the UK Ministry of Defence, opening the way for the Dauphins to replace four Agusta A 109A helicopters that had been used by the AAC's 8 Flight since the early 1980s"

[Claudel Hopson]

Yup, have to agree with all you know alls, having looked at the videos for the Dauphin, it sure was a waste of time refurbishing the Dauphins to that standard. The knockers who said that the AirCorps were right to sell them need to have a good look. Do you all mean to tell me that their isnt one ex-Dauphin pilot in Baldonnel who would say "No I am not flying that because its 20 years old. Get a grip lads. They would more than taken up the slack from the retiring of the Alouettes and Gazelles.

[Tadpole]

Have a look at the first page of the rotor leasing website.
They deny selling to the chilieans althought that may be the final detination. They also deny the huge price tag.

On another note have a look at this:
http://www.rotorleasing.com/AS365Dauphins.htm

At the bottom of the page is a link to a trailer for the Dauphins. It is one of the best heli sales videos I have ever seen. Clean, crisp, excellent editing and the music is just perfect.
Something like that as a recruitment video would be first class, if you needed recruits that is!

[riflemangundy]

guys is there an auction when selling off vehicles or is it all on tender?? if so where and when,,remember seeing something bout the gardai selling off vehicles years ago

[Goldie fish]

Defence Forces Equipment.

105. Deputy Charlie O’Connor asked the Minister for Defence the procedures involved in selling off large items of disused military equipment such as aircraft, ships and APCs; if he is satisfied that the system is working effectively; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42731/08]

Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea): The position is that tender competitions are usually run by my Department for the disposal of major assets such as aircraft and ships when they have reached the end of their economic working lives in the Defence Forces. Examples of these are the sales of the Naval Service ship, L.E. Deirdre in 2001 and a Gazelle helicopter, four Dauphin helicopters and six Marchetti helicopters in 2006. Earlier this year my Department ran a tender competition for the disposal of six Alouette helicopters. It is expected that the sale of the Alouettes will be completed before the end of the year.

In the particular case of the sale of the Dauphins which attracted recent newspaper headlines, the position was that the sale of the helicopters was advertised on the Department of Finance’s e-tender website. The tender documents were also available from the Department of Defence’s website and were made available to military attachés. An advertisement for the sale of the helicopters was also placed in Flight International magazine. The records show that over eighty sets of tender documents issued in connection with the competition, which was fully transparent and open to all interested parties. The same procedure applied to the tender competition for the disposal of the Alouettes earlier this year.

It is not generally the practice to sell defensive equipment such as Armoured Personnel Carriers. Such equipment is normally scrapped when it is considered to be defunct and past its operational use. I am fully satisfied that the tendering procedures used in the disposal of major assets are appropriate and that my Department achieves a fair price for these assets through an open and transparent process.

Also

106. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Defence the amount raised by the recent sale of four Air Corps AS365 helicopters; if his attention has been drawn to reports that these aircraft were subsequently sold on at a substantial profit; if he is satisfied that his Department got value for money in regard to the sale of these aircraft; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42767/08]

Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea): The four Dauphin helicopters, special tools and spare parts were sold following an open tender competition to Rotor Leasing Incorporated in the USA for €311,000 in October 2006. The sale of the helicopters was advertised on the Department of Finance’s e-tender website, the tender documents were also available from the Department of Defence’s website and were made available to military attachés. An advertisement for the sale of the helicopters was also placed in Flight International magazine. The records show that over eighty sets of tender documents issued in connection with the competition. The tender competition also included the sale of one Gazelle helicopter. Five tenders were received, three of which made offers for the Dauphins. Rotor Leasing submitted the highest bid in relation to the Dauphins and were awarded the contract for the sale of the helicopters and spare parts. The sales agreement was completed in October 2006.

It was estimated at that time that each aircraft required a major inspection and avionics re-fit at an estimated cost of €3,000,000 - €3,500,000 per helicopter in order to meet the operational requirements of the Air Corps if the aircraft were to remain in service. Even following such an investment, the Air Corps would still have 20 year old aircraft which would continue to require more extensive maintenance and would provide less output than their modern equivalents. A policy decision was therefore taken not to proceed with the required maintenance given the cost involved, in favour of a re-equipment programme. This programme has seen the acquisition of 2 EC135 helicopters and 6 AW 139 helicopters for the Air Corps, with the final AW 139 helicopter delivered earlier this month.

When the aircraft in question were taken to the United States, Rotor Leasing set about restoring them. This involved doing the major inspections and overhauling components, with a total of between 5,000 and 5,500 man hours being devoted to each aircraft. It is my Department’s understanding that the aircraft were then sold on by Rotor Leasing to Eurocopter, the original equipment manufacturer, in South America where the aircraft are being outfitted with specific mission equipment for the Chilean Navy. In this context, it is perfectly reasonable to expect that the market value of the aircraft would have increased in line with the cost of the major refurbishment work.

I am not in a position to confirm the reported sale value to the Chilean Navy. The very significant extent of refurbishment undertaken, the outfitting with mission specific equipment and any additional contract terms such as warranty, supply of parts or servicing would also have an important bearing on the contract value and is a matter outside the remit of my Department.

I am quite satisfied that the tendering procedures used in the sale of the Dauphins were correct and that my Department achieved a fair price for the aircraft with due cognisance to their age and condition at the time of sale.

[hptmurphy]

The DF decided to cut their losses on the machine.

If they Dauphin had be retained in service I doubt the AC would have recieved the AB 139s, while not a great fan of the machine it is a positive step forward from the SA 365Fi.

The option to move on was the best one available to the AC and the right choice was made.

The Dauphins were never going back to sea with the NS , that was an experiment that failed for various reasons.

It will take a new larger helo and ship before that is ever tried again.

The NS and the DF as a whole is far too small now to support an independent airwing.

[Goldie fish]

Taxpayers ‘did not lose out in sale of army helicopters’

By Juno McEnroe
GOVERNMENT ministers have denied that the taxpayer lost out on millions of euro following the sale of four Irish army helicopters.


The four Defence Forces helicopters were originally sold to a US company for a mere €311,000 but, according to weekend reports, were then resold to the Chilean navy for nearly €19 million.

However, Junior Defence Minister Pat Carey yesterday said it was “factually incorrect” as claimed in reports that taxpayers had lost out on the deal.

The Dauphin helicopters were 20 years old, he explained, and had been in need of serious and costly repair.

“They had been taken out of a lot of operational matters including search and rescue. Their capabilities were extremely limited.

“The other issue was the avionics in them were first generation and would have needed replacement and the reality is it wasn’t possible to get avionics for them or spare parts,” he told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland.

The decision was taken to sell the army aircraft in 2006 after internal department inquiries estimated that the cost of doing up the aircraft could have been up to €3.5m for each one, added Mr Carey.

The price received was the “best price got”, he stressed.

“We believe the correct course of action was taken because replacement helicopters and other planes for the Air Corps were necessary,” he added.

The four helicopters were sold to Colorado firm Rotor Leasing.

Company official Christopher Bateman yesterday said: “None of them were airworthy, two of them hadn’t flown in four years. The other two had been more recently taken out of service.”

The aircraft had been due for significant inspections before being sold by the Government but were in various states of disrepair, he added.

The US company had incurred huge costs bringing the helicopters across the Atlantic, repairing them and then had put them on the market a year and half ago, the company official added.

Mr Bateman told RTÉ that the original price for the helicopters was a fair one. He would not say how much they were sold on for but admitted the price had been at least 100% above the original sale price but only after the repairs had been completed.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishex...143-qqqx=1.asp

[parade boy]

Do we really want to spend €3 million (per heli) on 20 year old aircraft?

[warthog]

The Dauphin was killed off because it was a nice little scapegoat for Tramore
it's that simple.

[hptmurphy]

Err, was'ent there some report about the Chilian navy building a ship very similiar to our HPV there a few years back?

Didn't happen as Gen. Pinochet was in charge at the time and the Irish Government were not going to be seen to do business with a right wing dictatorship at the time.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Careful, paul, that would imply some kind of illegal collusion in the bidding, which would also imply that the sealed tender process is not safe.
regards
GttC

[paul g]

it has been known for one company to approach three others companies and ask them to put in slightly lower bids. The civil servants look at them , and said, ah well, its the best we'll get, and take it. The three other companies then get sub contract work from the winner.

However, that is not to say it happened in this case, they did need an upgrade, but apart from that still had years of life left in them. My own opinion is that the Dauphins should have been upgraded and used to provide a dedicated naval squadron for operation off the new EPV, as indeed their new owners will be using them.

[Tadpole]

Well done Rotor Leasing. I bow at the alter of capitalisim

[DeV]

The other pertinent question is where the decision or pressure to sell the Dauphins so quickly came from ...

The Special Report on the AC & NS, approx 2002
The AAIU report into the crash at Tramore
The fact that the decision to upgrade/sell the Dauphin had to be made urgently

etc etc