How much would it cost?

[Goldie fish]

We had vampires,ejector seats and 20mm cannon,then we went Backwards and got the Fougas, no ejector seats,7.5mm machine gun...Any Jets earlier than that?

[Come-quickly]

the fouga stories just get worse and worse, 7.5mm mgs, who the hell used 7.5mm other than France and maybe its former dependencies

[paul g]

As for the German alpha Jets, sure the airframes were free, the overhaul they needed to get them flying again was the expensive part of the deal , and they were only offered free on the condition you went for the upgrade.

The trend though in other airforces has been to reduce the number of jet trainers LIFT. Though I'm not an expert in the field, it appears that computer technology has made simulators more effective, and a larger part of fast jet pilot training will be carried out on them, since its a lot cheaper and safer. Finland is for example reducing their hawk fleet, and so are the switz. The PC-9 are a big enough step up for the aircrops as it is. As for the government turning a surplas into a decifit, slowdown in the global economy was responsible for that.

But i think the chances of us getting fighter jets is about the same as Sarah michelle Gellar and Rachel Stevens fulfiling my fantasies tonight

[Come-quickly]

Yeah I'm afraid they're all booked up for tonigh:D

[ias]

Sorry to get back on track, SMG sounds really tasty (not PC I suppose), however regarding the Alpha Jets, Thailand purchased 16-20(?), for almost 0, the refurbishment, by Donier, was approx. US$1.5 million per unit, excluding a new ejector seat (an extra US$400K p.u.), therefore 8 for less than €16 million.


IAS

[Come-quickly]

Even so they would have been a good purchase then but not now

[paul g]

Then again, the alpha jets would have required two types of trainers to be maintained increasing costs, Why go to the bother to have a fairly neglible combat capability by modern standards, when an advanced Torbo-prop does the job. There is no point in having jets just for the sake of having jets, there has to be some sort of viable plan. For example, the Fouga were bought because the air corps needed to have an airplane in case there was a skirmish between the DF and IRA, (read that in Flight international 1987 special on the Air corps)

Nobody will disagree that it is difficult to get money for defence spending, and that if there were a billion or so to spare, a metro for Dublin or a national stadium would get priority, therefore, i think few will disagree that in the absence of any imediate threat, that F-16s are not a priority, and that the turbo-props were a good buy. Though on frank grealish's board somebody related that the rumour was that F-16s from Belgium would be based in Baldonnel during the E.U summit, they did borrow a Puma for the pope.

[Film Guy]

Belgian

J***s
My friend goes out with a Belgian who lives in Cork, the bloody shame of them providing air-cover in our own country, do we have no flippin pride?:confused:

[yeehah1]

30-09-03
So, based on what ias had to say, Alphas would have been a viable deal afterall. As for the deficit being blamed on the gobal economic downturn, that's just more of the same horse manure we hear everyday re: job cuts etc...
It's an old tune that just doesn't fly anymore and even the Boyos in the dail don't use that old chestnut these days.

The Air Corps and our defence forces are suffering form the same thing they have always suffered from....being funded by a government without wit, pride nor imagination. No foresight or vision either.
I know and accept all that has been said about the PC-9's. But guys, this is the 21st Century. Time to grow up and stand tall and fend for ourselves.
As for a metro for Dublin, well, there is more to Ireland and it's needs than Dublin. I reckon "national" security is far more important than a toy train for the dubs. Look at the mess they made of the LUAS. They even hired a company that was incompetent.
Why would anyone on this forum or any other forum believe they would do anything clever like keep our defense forces current and modren?
What will happen is that something horrible will happen, accusations will fly and we'll just mosey on, flying, sailing and using equipment that's either 20 years out of date or so cheap it's scary.
We'll never have jets boys.

[yooklid]

Originally posted by yeehah1
30-09-03
So, based on what ias had to say, Alphas would have been a viable deal afterall.

Yes, but again the government let us down. However, the general argument that LIFTS are NOT the way to go still holds true. But, it's better than nothing.

As for the deficit being blamed on the gobal economic downturn, that's just more of the same horse manure we hear everyday re: job cuts etc... It's an old tune that just doesn't fly anymore and even the Boyos in the dail don't use that old chestnut these days.

Ireland is an open trade based economy which relies on massive amount of inward investment to function. The strategy of the government has been to encourage investment by reducing the amount of corporation tax these investors pay. The net effect of this is that personal tax has to be raised. This works fine as long as people are working and can pay tax to furnish public expenditure. The populist nature of Irish politics mean that even though we are now closer to full employment than ever, we have perhaps the largest social welfare
expenditure in our history. This translates into sponsoring expensive public expenditures which though popular at the time result in borrowing, longer term this means trouble. ie Buying votes in the short term.

Ireland was dealt a severe blow by the economic downturn due to its reliance on the tech industry. If you think that this is horse manure, come to Silicon Valley and ask around. Jobs are still being created,
but they are in India. That's where Irish (and other) jobs are now going as we become more expensive to operate.

The Air Corps and our defence forces are suffering form the same thing they have always suffered from.... being funded by a government without wit, pride nor imagination.

The governemnts of Ireland have enough "wit pride and imagination" to know what their constituants want, and it is not F-16s. The people on this board espousing more defence spending are in a distinct minority in
Irish society.

No foresight or vision either. I know and accept all that has been said about the PC-9's. But guys, this is the 21st Century. Time to grow up and stand tall and fend for ourselves.

And buying fighter jets is the way to do this? Please explain how.

As for a metro for Dublin, well, there is more to Ireland and it's needs than Dublin. I reckon "national" security is far more important than a toy train for the dubs. Look at the mess they made of the LUAS. They even hired a company that was incompetent.

The majority of politicans are from *outside* Dublin due to the constitutions rural bias. As are Civil Servants. At present almost 40% of the population live in the greater Dublin area, rising to 50% by the year 2010. Will they have 50% of TDs? I don't think so. So much for real democracy. Proper infrastructure is hardly a "toy" for one section of the population. Do rural TDs not secure for their constitiuencies advantageous funding. I will write no more on this, it is off topic
(Moderators?!?!?!)

Why would anyone on this forum or any other forum believe they would do anything clever like keep our defense forces current and modren? What will happen is that something horrible will happen, accusations will fly and we'll just mosey on, flying, sailing and using equipment that's
either 20 years out of date or so cheap it's scary. We'll never have jets boys.

Not until we really need them. Despite the fact that he is grossly unpopular, Smith has done more in his tenure than most other ministers ever did.

We simply have no rational for jets at this time.

What we need are

1. Helicopters. Preferably a lot of a good design. (EH 101) They should be used in a 2:1 search:transport ratio. Moving to a 1:2 ratio during time of emergency.

2. Transport planes. Preferably something that can carry the mowags so we can deploy properly

3. A whole heap of other things. Sadly, though I love jets and would love to seem them with an IAC roundrel on them, there are other much more relevant priorities.

-Yooklid

[Lordinajamjar]

xxxxx

[Come-quickly]

Don't ask, Yeehah I'm also a member of a distinct minority that doesn't like being referred to as someone's boy.
The fact is that the cost of equiping and operating a functional fighter force would be more than enough to re-equip the army to a modern expeditionary standard, in fact it could do wonders for all three services.
If you're really worried about the DFs relevance try looking at solutions for our more pressing needs, namely getting well equipped battleworthy forces that can self deploy overseas and impress the hell out of everyone, including the Irish electorate, preferably without anyone getting killed.

[FMolloy]

The Sikorsky contract was cancelled due to budget cuts. Something had to go, and since the helicopter contract was tied up in the courts due to Eurocopter's appeal against the Sikorsky choice it was the easiest thing to axe.

[yeehah1]

01-10-03
The Sikorsky contract fiasco is excatly what I am talking about here. It's so much wether we need nor what jet type we can afford...but when someone in Government DOES try to help our Air Corps step up into the 12st century, there is no guareentee that they won't make a mess out of it.

I agree, helicopters are needed, but I recall that the Puma we borrowed for a year on evaluation was used mainly for moving hay bales around. It proved a valuable assest and yet they passed on it!! And I have it on good authority that the helicopter they are evaluating right now is inferior in the role they want it for when compared to the EH101 which i believe has twice the range, load carrying capabilty and is cheaper to run and easier to operate!! As usual, they chose the lesser vehicle and wonder why theings later go to crap when the chips are down.

While is may be off topic, the problems within the economy and the govenments lack of intelligence to deal with it are entirely relevant and have a direct bearing to this discussion since if they had actually devined a plan that worked instead of trying to show up the Big Fellas in Europe, maybe we could resupply our Airforce with our own BOUGHT , small jets, as opposed to "borrowing" someone elses for the year we have the EU presidency.
Just look at this morning's Star (and other newspapers) re: Government wastage in spending, in which it has been reported that the majority of our finacial problems are due to incredible wastage and over-runs on budgets on the "public" spenditure approved by the government, such as the social welfare office redecoration that went from a hundred thousand to almost half a million euros!! and this is jus tthe tip....

As for the grow-up comment I made, is it not the fact that the RAF are on standby to "defend " our shores should any acts of terrorism occur, and that this arrangement has come around due to our lack of suitable aircraft to preform this duty ourselves?
Ireland, as a free state, is nearly 100 years old, yet we still place our problems and our responsiblities on someone elses doorstep!
This is not good enough. We are a country with a proud tradition in UN an so on. We are capable, if allowed, in devining our destiny.

I never made an arguement for F-16's as I think they'd be wasted here and cost too much. But a small, light modren jet would be useful and there is no reason, other than a lack of funds and foresight, why we shouldn't get them.
The LUAS system is seen as necessary only by Dublin politicains, not necessarily by the Dublin people who are now having their daily life thrown into chaos by the white elephant plonked on their doorstep.
This project has gone grossly over-budget and is now in crisis becuse they now admit, half-way thru construction that they chose the WRONG process, the wrong construction method and the wrong route into and out of the city.
The budget thay have p****ed away may have built a hospital, several schools or bought and funded several aircraft of any discription for the Air Corps.
And while there maybe more politicians outside the capital, nothing gets done in this country until it directly affects Dublin itself.
The fact that industry is moving to India, well, that's been happening ever since we joined the EU but is only now been seen in the light of day since we adopted the euro.
Industry, especially multi-national, have no loyalty to anyone but naked profit and this situation has just been waiting to happen.
Dell have a plant built and waiting in Eastern Europe. They're just waiting for the word.
As for being too expensive to employ, lads, you did it to yourselves.
All i can say is that I never voted for them.
But one day....our pilots will fly again. I only hope it's not a squadron of Radio Controlled Aircraft.
Actually, maybe we need to buy a few of those Predator thingies and despense with the Air Corps altogether!!

[Come-quickly]

Please just read the other topcs on this subject instead of reiterating points that have already been raised and discussed in detail if you want to discuss them again thats fine, but at least make yourself aware of whats already been said.