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  • Vulnerable heli crews.

    Just an observation folks but having looked at the recent pics of the ARW 30th anniversary and how they were using Helis to "takedown" a hostile convoy a thought struck me.In order to speedily get to the target vehicle and carry out whatever it was they were doing (HVT snatch?) the helis had to flare and land pretty damn close for comfort.IE within range of anybody who could shoot back.So the question is should our pilots and aircrew be equipped with body armour for such situations?
    What do we know before all kinda comments are made.
    1/ AW139 & EC135 are not armoured.
    2/Normal infantry general service CBA is probably too cumbersome and restrictive for their use.
    Now i know what is gonna be said.
    1/ They had sniper top cover(what about someone hiding in one of the cars)
    2/ GPMGs can be fitted for self protection to the 139 (rarely seen)
    3/ Crew already have battlevests with provision for sidearms for protection(Not armour and also never used)
    Discuss.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

  • #2
    If there were doing that for real they'd have the gpmg's fitted, with one heli most likely circling above.
    Don't stand there GAWPING, like you've never seen the hand of God BEFORE!!

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    • #3
      I think if it was a HVT, then an intel led sortie would be the reason it was launched. I would think every one else would be expendable based on the intel or the value put on the target.

      My thoughts would be that top cover would be on station with one group going in.

      I reckon the pictures were more photo ops than actual tactics
      "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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      • #4
        If you seen the RTE News on the day of the anniversary it showed the white Nissans engine being shot out (just pyros on this Ex above the front bumper of the Nissan).
        This was done from the air probability by the sniper.
        If you look at the pictures all of the enemy are kill before the helicopters land.

        A moving aircraft is a very hard target to hit with small arms even when flying low and slow.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by apod View Post
          3/ Crew already have battlevests with provision for sidearms for protection(Not armour and also never used)
          Discuss.
          A tender is out there for aircrew body armour, not sure what stage it's at though.

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          • #6
            Most Heli's are not armoured to any great extent. I think they rely on their maneurvability to get them out of the way at times. I know the pilots here (Afghanistan) wear body armor and some of them carry M-4's as well as M-9's with them. A good example of how it would work tactically is the scene in Blackhawk Down where they stop the car to lift Adaid's guys (can't remember his role exactly).

            Blackhawks here have door gunners and the CH-47's have multiple gunners too - sure it's risky for the pilots - they do seem very exposed (not my cup of tea) but the ones here I've talked to seem to view it as an occupational hazard.
            There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

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            • #7
              I believe that a 135 was providing top cover with a sniper team, to initially stop the vehicles.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by fiannoglach View Post
                I believe that a 135 was providing top cover with a sniper team, to initially stop the vehicles.
                There was and it was the same for the forced entry into the building. It just was not captured in any of the photos.
                "Fellow-soldiers of the Irish Republican Army, I have just received a communication from Commandant Pearse calling on us to surrender and you will agree with me that this is the hardest task we have been called upon to perform during this eventful week, but we came into this fight for Irish Independence in obedience to the commands of our higher officers and now in obedience to their wishes we must surrender. I know you would, like myself, prefer to be with our comrades who have already fallen in the fight - we, too, should rather die in this glorious struggle than submit to the enemy." Volunteer Captain Patrick Holahan to 58 of his men at North Brunswick Street, the last group of the Four Courts Garrison to surrender, Sunday 30 April 1916.

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                • #9
                  I remember back during the time of the 'Troubles', helicopter pilots sometimes wore 'flak jackets' and carried sidearms if they were flying border patrols.

                  The other question that arises is the need for armed escort helicopters. Something more than a sniper or a GPMG in the door is required: fixed or turreted 50 cal or 20mm, and rockets/missiles.

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                  • #10
                    Some good points raised lads keep em coming.
                    I saw all the footage of the event.Yes they had Sniper top cover.Yes the snipers would probably take out any main threats but as i said what about the bloke hiding in the back of the target vehicle or inside a building that the snipers didnt get?Heli lands on and whack he opens up at the cockpit hitting a pilot or two.Slick operation gone to dogshit.Now you have casualties to deal with,possibly a wrecked cockpit preventing extraction.Not good at all.IMHO the heli crews are no less deserving of protection than their passengers who if they are ARW probably have top of the range CBA.
                    If the lads are training to go in harms way,which they are,clearly,than they should be protected.The lads dont do SAR training without immmersion suits do they????Whay should this be any different.
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think the training is to familiarise the guys in the back, rather than those wearing helmets with built in sunglasses. The air corps lads will never deploy the aircraft, so in their opinion they are only going through the motions.
                      Its not right of course.


                      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by easyrider View Post

                        Pic's a little misleading, that's an EC635, militarized version of the EC135. AC operates the civil EC135 P2, you can't just mount gun/missile pods, no wiring/structural mounts on the airframe.

                        The Gazelle however was a military version and could have been fitted with weapons if the kit had been bought for it.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA342

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                          I think the training is to familiarise the guys in the back, rather than those wearing helmets with built in sunglasses.
                          whats with the attitude,cant just call them pilots.
                          Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                          The air corps lads will never deploy the aircraft, so in their opinion they are only going through the motions.
                          How do you know whats planned for the future or indeed what the opinion of those"wearing helmets with built in sunglasses" is. I dont believe youd be privvy to be such information nor are you telepathic with the ability to read pilots minds.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Peon View Post
                            Pic's a little misleading, that's an EC635, militarized version of the EC135. AC operates the civil EC135 P2, you can't just mount gun/missile pods, no wiring/structural mounts on the airframe.
                            A .5 or 20mm cannon can be mounted in the cabin of a 135 turning it into something like a Rhodesian K-Car.
                            Attached Files

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                              I think the training is to familiarise the guys in the back, rather than those wearing helmets with built in sunglasses. The air corps lads will never deploy the aircraft, so in their opinion they are only going through the motions.
                              Its not right of course.
                              What about the cash escorts/ vip protection/ counter terrorism ops at home?
                              "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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