Air Corps Not Asked To Tender For SAR Contract

[Tadpole]

How do you know what quality of service the AC could have provided

Non money related prime examples:

1. 5 aircraft couldnt keep one on SAR
2. Aircraft never dedicated to IRCG due to 'Operational control' issues.
3. Aircraft taken off SAR and out off its operational area just to change over crews etc.

Nothing to do with money. When the AC did get 11mil of the tax payers money they squandered it in a brutal attempt to put a 61 in Sligo. Regardless of our opinions of what happened the result was a disaster by the AC as an organisation from its inception and during its implementation.
Fact is history shows service quality from the AC is poor 'Bang for Buck' compared to civil operators. Thats what has them black listed, nothing more, nothing less. Thats also true of nearly every military in the world who are currently outsourcing non combat operations to civvies. Its just a shame that when the civvies take all the ACs non combat roles theres actually very little left for them to do.

[Jessup]

Non money related prime examples:

1. 5 aircraft couldnt keep one on SAR
2. Aircraft never dedicated to IRCG due to 'Operational control' issues.
3. Aircraft taken off SAR and out off its operational area just to change over crews etc.

Nothing to do with money. When the AC did get 11mil of the tax payers money they squandered it in a brutal attempt to put a 61 in Sligo. Regardless of our opinions of what happened the result was a disaster by the AC as an organisation from its inception and during its implementation.
Fact is history shows service quality from the AC is poor 'Bang for Buck' compared to civil operators. Thats what has them black listed, nothing more, nothing less. Thats also true of nearly every military in the world who are currently outsourcing non combat operations to civvies. Its just a shame that when the civvies take all the ACs non combat roles theres actually very little left for them to do.

Everything revolves around money to some extent!

1. Totally money. In terms of parts, hours clocked up, retention of mechanics and of course the aircraft type itself.

2. Money again. Fund aircraft that is exclusively dedicated to IRCG like they did with the Gardai.

3. That's the least defensible, can't argue with you on that. But again, money would have addressed that too.

[Tadpole]

Money is not the answer to the ACs problems. It needs a complete organisational overhaul IF its to survive, either that or it more jobs for the civvies.

[Tadpole]

Fund aircraft that is exclusively dedicated to IRCG like they did with the Gardai

They do. They are provided by CHC

[Jetjock]

One of the Mods is the tooth fairy too I suppose and another is Santa Claus.

You tell me, you're the one with the overactive imagination.

If a healthy professional skepticism towards anyone in a position of authority earns me the title of a tin foil hat wearer then I wear it with pride.

I think you are mistaking this for some state sponsored information website. This is a voluntarily run privately owned website. While there is always a place for skepticism why you need to apply it "professionally" here makes me wonder just exactly what the hell that means.

Anyway, back to the discussion. Do enjoy!

[FMolloy]

Welcome to IMO Ivor Callely

I'm amazed. Even after you were proven to be completely off the mark with regards to posting in the news section, you persist in believing that there is a deliberate effort to stifle discussion on the topic. Your paranoia is unreal.

I'm officially tired of arguing with someone as deluded as you. You want to discuss the AC and SAR, fine. I will not allow any further off-topic nonsense from you in this thread, if you're not happy with that you can complain to Boomer or another Admin.

[Jessup]

Money is not the answer to the ACs problems. It needs a complete organisational overhaul IF its to survive, either that or it more jobs for the civvies.

A bit of "ethnic cleansing" needed for sure, some of which started before I left the DF and I understand has continued (albeit slowly) ever since.

CHC are making a profit on the €500million and in that industry the margins are very high. I'm 100% sure the AC could provide an excellent SAR service with those funds and change left over. Maybe it's a sense of patriotism but I hope I'm being more rational than that.

As for the outsourcing issue my experience in civvi street is that the vast minority of outsourcing contracts are NOT for quality reasons. Mostly it's cheaper option. Often it's a quick fix to avoid tackling the issue properly. On other occasions it's a 'needs must' with the organisation over tasked in other areas as you alluded to with current developments in other military forces.

Are the UK outsourcing theirs? I don't think so. Did I not read recently that Prince William is heading that way in Wales next?

This just goes against all common business sense. Economies of scale and all that. What's next Blackwater to take over CITs and Olive to take over the Hotel?

[warthog]

A bit of "ethnic cleansing" needed for sure, some of which started before I left the DF and I understand has continued (albeit slowly) ever since.

CHC are making a profit on the €500million and in that industry the margins are very high. I'm 100% sure the AC could provide an excellent SAR service with those funds and change left over. Maybe it's a sense of patriotism but I hope I'm being more rational than that.

As for the outsourcing issue my experience in civvi street is that the vast minority of outsourcing contracts are NOT for quality reasons. Mostly it's cheaper option. Often it's a quick fix to avoid tackling the issue properly. On other occasions it's a 'needs must' with the organisation over tasked in other areas as you alluded to with current developments in other military forces.

Are the UK outsourcing theirs? I don't think so. Did I not read recently that Prince William is heading that way in Wales next?

This just goes against all common business sense. Economies of scale and all that. What's next Blackwater to take over CITs and Olive to take over the Hotel?

unfortunately,it doesn't look like it

[Tadpole]

I'm 100% sure the AC could provide an excellent SAR service with those funds and change left over.

As for the outsourcing issue my experience in civvi street is that the vast minority of outsourcing contracts are NOT for quality reasons. Mostly it's cheaper option.

Im confused. Are you saying that the civvies are cheaper or more expensive, cant have it both ways or in the ACs case is it:

Often it's a quick fix to avoid tackling the issue properly.

ie the AC cannot in its current form provide any kind of reliable service. Reasons for that are mute, its an internal problem that wont be fixed by throwing money at it.

I think it should also be remembered here that the AC have mainly only provided one SAR base not a SAR service as lauded in the press and the times when 2 were attempted only doubled the problems.
The civvies have continually provided a good standard of service at an acceptable cost, the AC didnt which allowed the civvies to replace them completely.

Are the UK outsourcing theirs?

Yes they are. Its called SAR-H. Again the press are fast to show that this is under review becasue of cost. Yes it is, and the primary cost driver in SAR-H is the inclusion of the military. Watch this space, currently 4 civviy bases and 8 mil. It will soon go to a min of 8 civ and the 4 mil may be made limp along with an amalgamation of assets from the current 8 bases. SAR-H isnt under review because of the civvies its under review because of the military associated cost drivers.

This just goes against all common business sense.

It makes perfect business sense. The AC, regardless of what assets they are given, are currently inefficient and ineffective. To give them a role they cannot fulfil because of organisational issues would be an absolute waste of tax payers money.

[warthog]

well said Tadpole,they had their little "experiment in Sligo" and rightly made a balls of it
and trust me that wasn't just because of wages

it's such a shame that the CHC ex donners aren't allowed to speak to the press,I'd love to see Lorna Siggins print that

[Jessup]

My point about outsourcing in general is that the service provider always profits and the service receiver frequently looses whatever the motivation for the outsourcing. That can be the canteen at work, the cleanliness in our hospitals or the call centre for your insurance.

In this case I think the decision is to avoid tackling a challenging issue. Just because it's challenging doesn't mean it shouldn't be tackled. Added to that with the form in this country who knows what a tribunal may or may not discover in the future!

As for ex donners working in CHC that adds to the case that the AC could do it. There's obviously nothing wrong with the skill base. To quote the Waterford report it's the 'systemic' issues that need to be addressed.

Outsourcing or privatisation of security/emergency services to for profit organisations is littered with disastrous results. Leaving the recent carnage with PSCs aside the two that spring to mind is the prisoner detention and transport in the UK and the ambulance service in US with companies just refusing to service certain areas etc.

I hope it keeps well for CHC not for CHC's sake but for those who originate the distress signal. When one talks about the quality of the service intangibles such as oath versus a contract and a duty versus a Service Level Agreement should also be considered as well as the appropriate funding.

[Aidan]

I'm 100% sure the AC could provide an excellent SAR service with those funds and change left over.

You are in a very small minority I'm afraid.

As for ex donners working in CHC that adds to the case that the AC could do it. There's obviously nothing wrong with the skill base.

Thats kind of selective, isn't it? There has never been any question as to whether or not the AC had people with the operational skillset to do the job, the question has been around whether they had enough of people with those skillsets, and could manage a service properly on that basis, including scheduling maintenance, training, leave etc. The answer to that has been an unequivocal 'no'. Calling this a 'systemic issue' glides over the fact that the Irish Air Corps, as currently formulated, is entirely unsuitable - a few tweaks wouldn't cut it, and I suspect a root and branch reform would probably (a) take years, and (b) actually reduce the capacity of the organisation to operate for a period while they got their stuff together.

And all of these begs the question as to whether the AC should even be doing SAR? Why does it have to be them? What is it about SAR that makes it a military function? They had the job from 1963 because they were the only body that had access to helicopters, just like in many European countries. That no longer pertains, and the general international experience has shown that it is generally far more efficient and effective to use civilian operators.

Meanwhile, the AC has finally gotten some military roles - we might argue that they have the wrong helicopters for that, and that they can't deploy abroad, but at least they're moving in the right direction. A couple of more years, and a good shake-up post White Paper, and they should be a lot better positioned. In the meantime, all of this wailing and moaning about the AC not being 'asked to tender' is completely irrelevant, that function is gone from them, and rightly so too.

More to the point, State Bodies don't tender for a role - they are either assigned it or it is put out to tender.

[Tadpole]

My point about outsourcing in general is that the service provider always profits and the service receiver frequently looses whatever the motivation for the outsourcing.

Over 20 years of civil SAR would indicate otherwise.

In this case I think the decision is to avoid tackling a challenging issue

]
Even this would only pertain to ONE base. Even you eluded to economy's of scale. The majority player, civvies, therefore should be doing it all.

As for ex donners working in CHC that adds to the case that the AC could do it. There's obviously nothing wrong with the skill base.

Could, not can. The skill set has mostly left and whats left hasnt done 24hr operations in over 5 years. Its gone.

Added to that with the form in this country who knows what a tribunal may or may not discover in the future

Finished slagging crews, now its time to allude that CHC have in some way bribed their way into the contract. Bitter little man.

When one talks about the quality of the service intangibles such as oath versus a contract and a duty versus a Service Level Agreement should also be considered as well as the appropriate funding

Which exact era are you living in? Contractually the service provider must do as in the contract or get hit in the pocket, very effective against a commercial company. Oath and Duty, while a noble thought, has always and will always take second place to being at home in front of the fire with the kids or the nixer. Then when Duty and Oath dont work and the service is falling apart there is no 'Big Stick' to hit people with, there is no control. Thats why civvies, who dearly protect their profit, provide such a good service. Its called pleasing the 'customer'. A concept that the AC just dont work towards. In fact in most cases they dont even recognise that they have a primary 'customer' ie the Army.

[DeV]

Even pre the Waterford accident I'm sure AC SAR had clocked up a few DSMs.

SAR Squadron wass probably one of the most decorated units in the DF.

Can someone clarify this issue about CHC 'owning' the new choppers after the contract has expired? Is the Irish State not paying for these choppers in full as part of the contract? Surely this doesn't mean that if the State wanted to replace CHC then there would be no choppers for a new operator?

They are and will remain CHC helicopters.

Non money related prime examples:

1. 5 aircraft couldnt keep one on SAR
2. Aircraft never dedicated to IRCG due to 'Operational control' issues.
3. Aircraft taken off SAR and out off its operational area just to change over crews etc.

Fact is history shows service quality from the AC is poor 'Bang for Buck' compared to civil operators. Thats what has them black listed, nothing more, nothing less. Thats also true of nearly every military in the world who are currently outsourcing non combat operations to civvies. Its just a shame that when the civvies take all the ACs non combat roles theres actually very little left for them to do.

There are many reasons for that the 2 main ones being the fact that they were multi-roled (not just SAR) and the Dauphin was very hard to maintain.

It could be argueed that the AC provides more "bang for buck" as the aircraft do other jobs as well.

I think it should also be remembered here that the AC have mainly only provided one SAR base not a SAR service as lauded in the press and the times when 2 were attempted only doubled the problems.

The AC had 2 at one stage for a number of years - Dublin and Finner.

The West coast contract (that goes back to the 80s I think) was only supposed to be temporary until the Government provided the AC with medium lift helicopters.

Meanwhile, the AC has finally gotten some military roles - we might argue that they have the wrong helicopters for that, and that they can't deploy abroad, but at least they're moving in the right direction. A couple of more years, and a good shake-up post White Paper, and they should be a lot better positioned.

They always had those military roles, but with the more capable (and maintainable) aircraft they have now (and without SAR) they have the time to give more hours to the army.

It is Government policy that the AC doesn't deploy aircraft overseas, not necessarily DF policy.

[Jetjock]

War of words over search and rescue deal

By Shane Phelan Investigative Correspondent
Wednesday August 11 2010


A WAR of words has broken out between the head of the Irish Coast Guard (IRCG) and a former Air Corps boss over the cost of a new €500m maritime search and rescue contract.

IRCG director Chris Reynolds has taken ex-Air Corps brigadier general John O'Brien to task over claims that tens of millions of euro could have been saved if all or part of the lucrative contract went to the Air Corps.

The deal, which will run from 2012 to 2022, was instead done with Canadian firm CHC Helicopter.

CHC will be paid €50m a year to make new generation Sikorsky S92 helicopters available 24 hours a day at bases in Shannon, Sligo, Dublin, and Waterford for coastguard search and rescue missions.

The fee is almost double the €27m-a-year CHC currently gets for providing maritime search and rescue.

Mr O'Brien told the Irish Independent last week that the costs would have been substantially less if the Air Corps was involved, but it was not asked to tender.

He also claimed the existing Air Corps AW139 helicopters could, with a small amount of modification, be upgraded to a 24-hour capability and used as part of the search and rescue service.

However, IRCG director Chris Reynolds hit back at Mr O'Brien's claims.

He said a cost analysis by the Department of Transport had shown that using the Air Corps would have been €100m more expensive than using a private operator.

Mr Reynolds also said the Air Corps was in no position to tender for the contract as it would have needed a prohibitively long lead-in time. "It would take the Air Corps five years to get to that capability from a standing start," he said.

"With the best will in the world, they wouldn't have the time."

Mr Reynolds also said Mr O'Brien was not comparing like with like when he suggested current helicopters could be modified for 24-hour availability.

"The new S92 helicopters will be much more sophisticated, have a larger capacity and a longer range," he said.

Mr O'Brien, who retired in 2002, wrote to Transport Minister Noel Dempsey in May seeking a meeting to make the case for Air Corps involvement in search and rescue. However, Mr Dempsey refused to meet him, as the CHC deal was close to being finalised. A spokesman for Mr Dempsey said the Department of Defence had advised his department in June 2008 that the Air Corps was "not an option".

The Air Corps had been involved in search and rescue for 40 years before being stood down by former Defence Minister Michael Smith in 2004, when a private contract was awarded to CHC.

- Shane Phelan Investigative Correspondent

Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...l-2291800.html