AW 139 Tail Rotor Problems

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there
The AAIU are civilians and answer to the Minister for Transport and are required, by law, to publish accident reports. The Don's inhouse AAIU are not civvies, report to the Minister for Defence and are not required to publish reports for public consumption, unless the Minister feels that it is in the public interest. The PC-9 crash report will be published on the AAIU website, because both agencies are cooperating in the investigation.
regards
gttC

[danno]

Do the AAIU not have to investigate all fatal incidents in Ireland as part of there role? Not a nice job by any means.

The aaiu investigate all aviation accidents and incidents including events such as near misses/breaching minima etc gliding and parachuting/model aircraft etc can come into their remit.Their role is independent of any GS or coroners inquiry.Some of the investigators are ex Donners.
There are moves afoot to scrap it and have a sinlgle agency to deal with air rail and marine accidents.

[easyrider]

....
There are moves afoot to scrap it and have a sinlgle agency to deal with air rail and marine accidents.

That seems to be a pretty pointless proposal. Where's the overlap between the different expertises required to investigate accidents involving aircraft, trains and ships?

[danno]

There isnt,however each board usually has a secretary,chairman and public member in addition to 2/3 technical experts.Therefore the proposal will have only one set of the above and one secretariat plus the tech members as appropriate to matter under investigation.
The proposal seems to be proceeding in that Yogi Whyte ex Don and on aaiu has lately been appointed to mcib.However thr high standard of reports usual to aaiu has got lost in the move,read the mcib report on Duggies Pride on www.mcib.ie to see what I am referring to.

[Jetjock]

Sounds like something modeled on the NTSB.

[danno]

[QUOTE=SARMAN;335520 Chc for all there faults do publish incident ..[/QUOTE]

SARMAN,have you any links for any such publication by Bond/CHC

[Jetjock]

CHC, like any civilian company are bound by all the rules and regs that apply in the civil aviation world. They are required only to report any incidents and accidents to the relevant authorities. While there are always internal investigations, the primary investigating authority will always be the AAIU and the only publicly available reports will be through same.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Look, even if they do form an NTSB lookalike, the crossover will be limited by the obviously different nature of road, rail, marine and air accidents. Apart from that, there are thousands of accidents and incidents every year in Ireland and thankfully, most are of a minor nature, with no deaths or injuries.
The AAIU are very good at what they do but right now are severly undermanned, which is why, apart from other reasons, it takes ages to get reports out. Also, any suggestion that it's a Donner's cushy retreat is contemptuous. If you think looking into a post-mortem crushed cockpit is cushy, try it yourself.
regards
GttC

[danno]

[QUOTE=GoneToTheCanner;335683If you think looking into a post-mortem crushed cockpit is cushy, try it yourself.
regards
GttC[/QUOTE]

One continual problem the aaiu keep meeting is the result of over enthusiastic firemen ripping up fuselages etc when the unfortunate occupants are clearly T4,to conduct a proper probe the downed craft needs to be preserved like a crim crime scene,even the seating position of occupants can be highly relevant.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there,
True, which is why guidelines for gardai and firefighters were issued to all authorities, right down to station level a few years ago, about how to deal with the crash scene. they are now a lot more aware than before about how to handle the wreck and the immediate area and potentially hazardous material.
Ultimately, everyone understands that preservation of live prevails over minding a wreck, of course.
regards
GttC

[apc]

One continual problem the aaiu keep meeting is the result of over enthusiastic firemen ripping up fuselages etc when the unfortunate occupants are clearly T4,to conduct a proper probe the downed craft needs to be preserved like a crim crime scene,even the seating position of occupants can be highly relevant.

Thats a very sweeping statement would you care to expand especially the quote"One continual problem the aaiu keep meeting is the result of over enthusiastic firemen ripping up fuselages etc when the unfortunate occupants are clearly T4"

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there,
@apc, it has been the case that fire crews have inadvertantly destroyed important physical evidence, ie, flight control runs, electrical control runs and so on, as they attempt to retrieve the crash victims. They have been used to dealing with stronger steel cars or concrete buildings and are less used to dealing with lighter, more fragile aluminium aircraft structures. This is not an attack on their dedication and diligence. From what I know, they do fine work and are always willing to learn.
regards
GttC

[danno]

Thats a very sweeping statement would you care to expand especially the quote"One continual problem the aaiu keep meeting is the result of over enthusiastic firemen ripping up fuselages etc when the unfortunate occupants are clearly T4"

Certainly Sir,please check report 2007-008 re Pilatus B4 on www.aaiu.ie.

[SARMAN]

For all the bleeding hearts out there on the poor investigator's in the AAIU, we all know that they do not have a nice task were fatal accidents have to be investigated but if they do not want to investigate accidents do not become an inspector in the AAIU. Jesus what person applies for a job without knowing the contents of what they are going to have to get involved in? That unit is jobs for the boys and maybe this has to change, there is lots of expert's out there with a stomach

As for the suggestion that the AAIU are understaffed, Good God above will you look at the number of incidents the AAIU are dealing with compared to the Garda traffic corps investigators all over the country, I was talking to one such Garda last week who was telling me he is currently investigating 9 fatal incidents that happened within 5 months.

Danno
As for the over enthusiastic fire and rescue personnel annoying the AAIU investigators you have obviously never experienced being on such a scene and have no comprehension as to what is involved. Fire and Rescue crews are well trained and only cut when the need comes and directed either the medics on scene or there commander as a need for patient extraction or safety of the scene. All Fire and Rescue crews in Ireland are cutting or not cutting every weekend, and are well aware of crime scene preservation, also the Garda on scene have the control of the site and will in most cases be on scene fairly swiftly, certainly more swiftly than the AAIU.
Also as for your use of T4, what exactly does this mean?? I know what it stands for in “Apparently Dead” What does this mean in a court of law?? My answer is feck all, the passenger is either clinically dead or anything in-between is not recognised in the state. PHECC registered Paramedics or Advanced Paramedics and Doctors are the only EMS personnel that have scope to make this call. Fire and Rescue crews in the majority of this country do not have this at there disposal.
Anyone want to get back to the point on this thread??? AW 139’s????? Tail rotors??????????!!!!

[apc]

Certainly Sir,please check report 2007-008 re Pilatus B4 on www.aaiu.ie.

Danno my issue was with your sweeping statement that this was a wide spread and common practice, one incident surely doesnt warrant your remark.

The procedure for any extrication where victim is alive and where the situation is not deteriorating is that the Fire Service extricate under the medical guidance of medical crews

Where a victim is pronounced dead by medical staff then the Gardai make the call as to whether the victim is to be removed or to remain in place pending investigation

All the report stated was that the Fire Service affected evidence by removing an obiviously dead person, this may have been done under Medical or Garda guidance it also may have been done by the Fire Service themselves.

But
As the song says one drop of rain doesnt mean theres a hurricane coming