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  • Idle speculation Air Corps

    I have had an interest in the Irish Air Corps for as long as I can remember, blame the uncle who put me in the cockpit of 162 [now the Grace Spitfire] when I was barely able to walk, I would love to say I have watched it grow and develop but, I have sadly to admit that that has not been the case.
    Now, don't get me wrong, despite some stories I have heard , which are appalling in their stupidity ,not being repeated here for various reasons [admin, not flying], there are many dedicated people in Bal', who are doing their best, despite clueless management within Bal', the DoD, the government and the bean counters.
    The current reality of the Air Corps is that in my opinion, it is little more then a waste of time and money. And now the discovery of oil on the south coast has heightened the problem.
    So, what should be done?
    Stressing that this is my own opinion, but based on ideas shamelessly plagiarized from other people, from inside and outside this site, indeed inside and outside this state, I believe that we face one of two choices:
    [A] Either disband the entire organization, and let the NS and the Army operate the assets they need from it.
    [B]Fix the damn thing. This would be difficult, and complicated, this is some of the things that might be done [This is by no means an exhaustive list]:
    [1] Subject the service to a new and separate independent audit, done by people that know what they are talking about, i.e. not bean counters, not civil servants with questionable agendas.
    [2] Ensure that whatever conclusions /recommendations that are made are carried out, no cherry picking as happened with price-waterhouse and the white paper.
    [3] Find a reasonable budget to run proper Military Air Service using military equipment, not half baked civil equipment that looks well in a coat of green paint.
    [4] Engage a PR consultant, preffably an exer, not necessarily ours, to make sure the people of this country know what their money is being spent on and why it's being spent. P.R. is vital in this day and age. When I was a brat our heroes were the likes of Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong, nowadays it's 2 talentless tossers from Lucan with stupid haircuts.
    [5]Redesign Bal' to meet the demands of a 21 century Air Service, Demolish everything apart from the dining hall, Church, the tower, hanger 5 and the best 1917 hanger [which if possible should be restored to original condition for the museum, the whole hanger, not half, as they have now, the money for this should come from the LOTTO fund, not from DoD]. One large hanger facing directly onto the ramp should be enough, using Hanger 5 as a service/repair area. While we are at a rebuild, extend the accommodation to take all the units from McKee and CBB and any other personal as necessary.
    [6] Other considerations which might be implemented, and would help are a better road entrance, a bigger aircraft arming berm, Fuel hydrants on the ramp, and a proper staff and public car park.


    NOW THE REALLY DIFFICULT AND IMPORTANT POINTS.

    [7] Identify and establish a role[s] for the Air Corps, the foundation is already there, The DF is customer driven, the customer is the Government, on behalf of the Taxpayer but the Air Corps is slightly different, it's ''customers'' are the 2 other services. These are the people who should set the role[s].
    There are only 3 roles for the Air Corps, in no particular order; Combat support, troop transport and ISTAR. They should have no other fixed roles apart from emergencies, by emergencies I mean natural or man-made disasters, not some TD wanting to go to a wine and cheese reception in downtown Paris. Goodbye Garda, goodbye air ambulance/HEMS. [Conditional; HEMS, now established should be retained until a properly funded public/private service is deployed to replace it.]
    [8] But in order to carry out these roles, something else is needed, something which is missing from many aspects of Irish society and Irish public service. The Air Corps needs to establish a backbone, in common modern Irish yuck speak, THE IRISH AIR CORPS NEEDS TO GROW A PAIR OR BECOME PART OF THE HISTORY OF THIS STATE.
    In order to do this, an esprit de corps must be made, an ethos has to be established, the Air Corps must become the best Military Air Support unit in the world. Using this as a reference:
    http://people.exeter.ac.uk/acking/Papers/RMethos4.doc, supplied to me by a fellow member of IMO who is remaining anoymous, this is where I would start:
    The new White paper must send them overseas as The Air Corps.
    Flying officers must be allowed to concentrate on flying duties.
    No admin duties while assigned to fly.
    A formal process must be put in place to enable any OR who is capable and wishes to, to be able to pursue flying qualifications even as air-crew.
    All Officers and OR’s must be trained as infantry to a useable standard.
    All staff must face a compulsory deployment during the summer months: Glen , Curragh, Cork, Shannon, European air show circuit, the reason is simple: So that every beach, every reserve camp, every significant summer event sees them, clocking up the hours, and becoming as familiar to the public as [spew] jedward.
    Apart from that learning to live rough is easier to learn in the summer[well what passes for a summer in this rain soaked rock].
    If someone in HQ wants a trio of troop transports parked halfway up Errigal for a weekend then the Air Corps should have no trouble doing it.
    They should have comfortable tents and reasonable food but should be out in what one would class as Disaster relief/combat conditions, they would have to survive on what one aircraft can carry for them.I am not expecting infantry conditions for them but some common sense is needed.
    The new motto must be the 3 ‘’A’’s Anytime, Anything, Anywhere.
    Three new levels of aspiration;
    [1] NCO’s can become Pilots.
    [2] Pilots can win themselves a season on the display team.*
    [3]The best of the pests get a deployment to America to learn to operate F-18’s+




    * Display team, the one I would get Bord Failta/National Lottery to pay for
    + suggested practical/useful example only, this is speculation; nothing is etched in rock ....yet!

    Ok, my fireproof suit is on, fire away......
    Last edited by Turkey; 2 April 2012, 19:54. Reason: being nice to the spelling police
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  • #2
    A very well thought out piece Turkey, looks pretty comprehensive covering all bases, excuse the pun.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think putting it to perspective with larger air wings would show how much a fallacy the AC has become, If the RAF need to have 130 Tornadoes to put 30 in the sky at anyone time, we are then ****ed if it came to non selective operations where the AC couldn't pick and choose what they do.

      If the army need helos let the army have helos and buy them like mowags, enough to move one battalion, one type fits all. same goes for the NS and fixed wing MPA...anything else is just shite.

      Buy your pilots off the shelf from some of the training colleges, short term contracts to let them 'hour build and move on'.

      Farm out maintainance on a contract basis etc etc.

      Its had the guts of 90 or so to get it right, failed miserably, move on.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

      Comment


      • #4
        All Officers and ORs must be trained as Infantry to an acceptable standard? When would they fit in time to fly or service aircraft? real airforces keep their aircraft mechs as far from infantry tasks as possible because it takes four years to train them. You can churn out basic infantrymen in a few months. try again.

        regards
        GttC

        Comment


        • #5
          Also, in real air forces, pilots rotate to ground duties after three year flying tours, quite simply because it's essential to any officer's career path that he does so and because they get too cocky if they don't. Air Forces need more than pilot officers, they need a myriad of other officer-level post holders to do the regular mundane shit, such as keeping the aircraft supplied with parts or keeping boots on feet or petrol in fuel tanks or food in mouths and so on and so on.
          I've said it before: cut the Garda helis and aircraft away from the Don entirely and let the DoJ pick up the tab; assign two helis to the NS full-time and train NS pers as pilots and mechs; give the rest to the Army. Move the Casas to Shannon, full-time. Move the MATS entirely to DoFA and let them pick up the tab, it's how it's done elsewhere and it works. For pilots, ATC, medics, engineers and all the other specialists, bring in a full-time two or three shift, 24-hr day. Sell the Cessnas and get four Caravans and give one permanently to the ARW. Order two new casas, as the current ones will be knackered in five years anyway.
          Kick ass and take names, DF wide. Dossers and fat lifers out!

          regards
          GttC

          Comment


          • #6
            The GS never wanted the Air Corps to fly for them, some of the original GASU crew were already rated on the Squirrel, which they had completed on their own time.


            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

            Comment


            • #7
              While in a totally different operating budget - its interesting to look at the UK Commando Helicopter Force. I'm not suggesting that the DF use the model as a comparison but their operations and capabilities are interesting

              845 SQN - 250 personnel - 10 x Sea King Mk4

              846 SQN - 250 personnel - 10 Sea King Mk4s (Replacing with Merlin Mk4s)

              847 NAS SQN - RM Aircrew and Pilots - Recce Task Force - 4 x Lynx AH7 (Replacing with Wildcats)

              848 SQN - Train 60 Pilots/Aircrew and 150 Maintainers Per year
              "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                All Officers and ORs must be trained as Infantry to an acceptable standard? When would they fit in time to fly or service aircraft? real airforces keep their aircraft mechs as far from infantry tasks as possible because it takes four years to train them. You can churn out basic infantrymen in a few months. try again.
                I love to agree with you, but the Air Corpse is 2 divided forces, something has to be done to sort that out, considering I am speculateing on an expanded Air Corps, they will have the time, there is no try again, there is now only make the feckin thing work or get rid of it. so unless you have a better idea......

                Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                Also, in real air forces, pilots rotate to ground duties after three year flying tours, quite simply because it's essential to any officer's career path that he does so and because they get too cocky if they don't.
                No disagreement here, one of the Air Corps problems is that the Pilots do a lot of hours, rotation would be a very good idea, but Pilots while assigned to flying should only be concentrating on flying. After almost 50 years of studying what air forces do I am aware of what else is required to get aircrafts into the air. Again an expansion is probally the best idea.
                I mostly agree with what else you say, except the either keep the Casa's where they are, or disband and split the Air Corps, the whole service is too small to fragment as it's not just moving the Casa's to shannon, but also a whole raft of other people to look after them.
                As for equipment, I have deliberately avoided mentioning that except in general terms, on THIS thread.


                Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                Kick ass and take names, DF wide. Dossers and fat lifers out
                definite agreement there, but start with some of the mummified gits at the top, and in the civil service...
                "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                Illegitimi non carborundum

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                  While in a totally different operating budget - its interesting to look at the UK Commando Helicopter Force. I'm not suggesting that the DF use the model as a comparison but their operations and capabilities are interesting

                  845 SQN - 250 personnel - 10 x Sea King Mk4

                  846 SQN - 250 personnel - 10 Sea King Mk4s (Replacing with Merlin Mk4s)

                  847 NAS SQN - RM Aircrew and Pilots - Recce Task Force - 4 x Lynx AH7 (Replacing with Wildcats)

                  848 SQN - Train 60 Pilots/Aircrew and 150 Maintainers Per year
                  Interesting comparision there, 24 aircrafts[admittidly all helicoptors] but look at the numbers of pilots involved...
                  "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                  Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                  Illegitimi non carborundum

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                    All Officers and ORs must be trained as Infantry to an acceptable standard? When would they fit in time to fly or service aircraft? real airforces keep their aircraft mechs as far from infantry tasks as possible because it takes four years to train them. You can churn out basic infantrymen in a few months. try again.

                    regards
                    GttC
                    They train them to Pln level do they not?

                    As in they could defend their station if attacked?!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I liked this post, my phone didn't, while the air corps should be able to defend bal' this is no my primary reason for this, air and ground crew and others must learn to work together as one service , not an us and them situation.
                      "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                      Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                      Illegitimi non carborundum

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The Air Corps have a number of serious issues, some they can sort, some they cant.

                        1. In Ireland the IAC have NO credible military role. There is currently very little, if nothing at all, that cannot be carried out by civilian contractors. Despite this the IAC continue to chase after civilian roles, roles that they can and eventually will be pushed out of every time. History is there to be learnt from, yet the Air Corps refuse to learn from it. They should be carving niche operations that nobody else can do. They, over the last 30 years, have been the masters of their own downfall.

                        2. The units are too small for overseas deployment. EG if one helicopter was on 24/7 call it would require at least 2 machines, 6 pilots, 3 aircrew and at least 6-10 techs. Now imagine the current strength deployed for 2-3 months at a time. Every staff member would be spending about 2-3 months overseas in every year of their career. Simple solution; increase numbers, but then what do you do with the huge numbers sitting around the Don with nothing to do except wait for the next trip abroad. The IAC just isn't set up for or capable of operations overseas.

                        3. Support the Army properly, don't just do it when its pleasant or suits in the lead up to an aircraft tender. Get out there and get the boots dirty. Do the IAC have the capability to deploy with troops 'in the field' and I don't mean to do some flying and head home to the nearest airport, I mean muck in with the troops and prove the concept that the IAC can actually do field ops. When is the last time the IAC deployed into a field with troops on exercise for 24 / 48 / 72 hrs? Has it ever happened? Should it?
                        A prime example of what happens when you don't train for these types of operations and then do them is the Shannon airport deployment that left 40+ IAC staff with no drinking water. Logs issue? Maybe but if these deployments were practiced then all the logs would be known quantities.
                        PS Dont pull helicopters off the Army at the first sniff of a civiy role such as HEMS, it pisses off the people who should be your best customers.

                        4. Grow up and except that in military operations aircraft get shot down and people die. Either get behind the operation 100% and support it fully or stop playing soldiers and let somebody else do it.
                        Last edited by Tadpole; 3 April 2012, 09:25.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                          All Officers and ORs must be trained as Infantry to an acceptable standard? When would they fit in time to fly or service aircraft? real airforces keep their aircraft mechs as far from infantry tasks as possible because it takes four years to train them. You can churn out basic infantrymen in a few months. try again.

                          regards
                          GttC
                          Nobody does this. Waste of resources. Not everyone can be a pilot - they of the "winged master race" as well as the equally important "techs" are skilled specialists who are best left doing their niche roles. Infantry types can be trained relatively quickly in comparison. If needs be have a "Field Defence Squadron" of infantry types in blue ala RAF Regiment, without giving them the delusion they are some kind of elite ranger wing unit.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by northie View Post
                            Nobody does this. Waste of resources. Not everyone can be a pilot - they of the "winged master race" as well as the equally important "techs" are skilled specialists who are best left doing their niche roles. Infantry types can be trained relatively quickly in comparison. If needs be have a "Field Defence Squadron" of infantry types in blue ala RAF Regiment, without giving them the delusion they are some kind of elite ranger wing unit.
                            I have spoken to a number of Officers and OR's[flying and non flying, serving and retired] of other services, including US Marines, USAF, USN, RAF, and Isralies and they have all done infantry training during their services, some did get a bit close mouthed when pressed for details, so as far as I'm concerned, that where my questioning ends. But since my plan includes moving 4 infantry battlions and sundry Corps units to within the blue fence, there is certainly no need to have plainly absurd notions about ''elite ranger wing units''. I am talking about some kind of commanality of training to creat a bond between all the people involved in getting aircrafts up into the sky so they can work better together, it's not rocket science, but neither is it there, I am baseing this on the thinking of the royal marines, who have being experienceing difficult working since 16-0-splash.
                            But it is everyones right to pick small holes in the plan without suggesting ideas of their own..
                            "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                            Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                            Illegitimi non carborundum

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Turkey View Post
                              I have spoken to a number of Officers and OR's[flying and non flying, serving and retired] of other services, including US Marines, USAF, USN, RAF, and Isralies and they have all done infantry training during their services, some did get a bit close mouthed when pressed for details, so as far as I'm concerned, that where my questioning ends. But since my plan includes moving 4 infantry battlions and sundry Corps units to within the blue fence, there is certainly no need to have plainly absurd notions about ''elite ranger wing units''. I am talking about some kind of commanality of training to creat a bond between all the people involved in getting aircrafts up into the sky so they can work better together, it's not rocket science, but neither is it there, I am baseing this on the thinking of the royal marines, who have being experienceing difficult working since 16-0-splash.
                              But it is everyones right to pick small holes in the plan without suggesting ideas of their own..

                              The thing is, everyone in the Air Corps does the "full infantry training" you mentioned, although some moreso than others. OR's all do the three star infantry syllabus, including the apprentices who do it at the very end of their training. The officer types vary - if they fly it means they left the cadet school after the section level tactics phase, whilst those who didn't get their wings find them back in the cadetschool, backclassed with the grunts and do the full army cadetship and all that this entails. With the best will in the world however, you can't have aircrew/techs carrying out a "squadron in attack" on foot to the same standard as infantry and have them be able to perform their air role and maintain the required number of operational hours.

                              The "delusion" comment comes from things I have anecdotally heard about the RAF regiment. They are not simply airfield guards as the line infantry would have you believe, however they're not SF either which is what I've heard some of them think they are - though with the British regimental system there is a tendency to believe everyone's own capbadge is the best. They're basically a specialised infantry unit with a very specific tasking and specific equipment to get the tasking done.
                              Last edited by northie; 3 April 2012, 14:21.

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