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  • JSF,Eurofighter, Rafale or ? for Air Corps

    It pretty clear that the aircorps need some sort of aircraft to defend Irish airspace. We cant go on indefintely asking the RAF.

    Whether the government actually goes ahead and purchases aircraft is another matter for debate. However this tread is about what other EU countries are thinking of doing,what direction they are going and what should the Irish government be doing.

    Ireland isnt the poor man any more and is more like countries like Belgium and the Netherlands in terms of wealth.

    The Dutch Government says it is going to join in developing the hi-tech US-made Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft instead of the other two other rival projects - the Eurofighter Typhoon, by a European consortium, and the French Rafael.

    Most European aircraft seem to more expensive than equilivant US aircraft and by time the Eurofighter comes into service, its not going to be cutting edge technology.

    Although the JSF is not expected to be operational until the year 2010 shouldnt Ireland now get invovled in the Joint Strike Fighter to serve the future defence needs of Ireland? A 6 year time frame isnt a long time when you consider what the current level of experise and aer corps infastructure is.

    JSF
    $31-38m per aircraft
    18,000lbs fuel capacity
    15,000lbs missile capacity
    1,100 km combat range

  • #2
    Gripen offers a lightweight short tailed swing role solution for not very much in even 3rd gen terms never mind 4th.
    It would offer the best cost package for a first or nearly new aircraft but if the govt was to think along the same strategy that drives the Army and NS procurement some second hand 3rd Gen aircraft would be more likely.
    Also there is the increasingly tempting option of fourth gen LIFT/Light Fighters.

    But I wouldn't take it as a logical conclusion that the state will shoulder the burden of its responsibilities by establishing a CAP, ADF force.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

    Comment


    • #3
      Andy, did you really write all that yourself?
      :D
      Seriously, there are other alternatives, which could produce better value then the JSF, which does have characteristics which we could easly get away without. The Gripen, or the final[probally] production run of the F-16.
      We have been over all this [rocky] ground before.
      I do not see how Ireland could get involved in this venture anyway, we would probally not be allowed to take part, due to our non-involvment in alliances, for one reason, I'm sure there are others.
      Besides there is no evidence to say that our governments have any intrest in defending the population, not when their most recent purchase for the IAC is the means for some of them to run away.
      But it is a good idea.
      "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
      Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
      Illegitimi non carborundum

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      • #4
        Turkey isn't the F-16 Block 60+ a bit too strike optimised?
        Alot of the default avionics would barely be used throughout their service career since even if we did deploy EAUs they'd be ltd to CAS and recce rather than strategic targets.
        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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        • #5
          I'm not terribly sure CQ, I think, however if you buy off the shelf, then you are more limited in your choice, but if we were to specify a load of equipment we would probally drive the price up, even thou' we would be in effect gettin less product. also, if a policy change came about regarding us using them abroad, we would'ent half look red faced going back to the manfacturer.
          IMHO, buyin the best, and the newest , off the shelf, might be the most sensible approch, buy I am willing to be swayed.

          "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
          Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
          Illegitimi non carborundum

          Comment


          • #6
            Andy, did you really write all that yourself?
            no me got mummy to writed it



            .. there are other alternatives, which could produce better value then the JSF, which does have characteristics which we could easly get away without. The Gripen, or the final[probally] production run of the F-16.
            Well this is a point that I disagree with. I dont think the Irish Government can go on indefintely without having some sort of new Jet Fighter. Most equipment bought for the DF was new and purchasing 2nd equipment just means maintenance all the time.

            The Unit cost of the JSF is pretty cheap when you consider what you are getting capabilities wise, how long it would last in service and purchasing via multi annual budgets.

            8 JSF X $40Million =$320Million or €260million. Thats what, €26million for 10 years?

            Yes there are alternatives but the unit cost of the Eurofighter is pretty high and is a throw back to the cold war. I dont know much about the likes of the Gripen.

            Getting invovled in the Joint Strike Fighter would mean that the DF could specify any extra requirements it needed at minimal cost compared to some of the other fighters being developed. It also sufficiently long enough off to train pilots, develop infastructure. In the medium term the government should have an understand with the UK to provide air cover up until that point.

            Comment


            • #7
              Personally I do not think that the Eurofighter is not in the game at all, and is unecessarly complicated for the Role of air defence, Republic of Ireland.
              [ADROI; new acronym:D ]
              I mentioned both these aircraft types, as they are still in production, there is no need for Ireland to pretend to be the 'poor relation' any more, buying second-hand junk.
              But as the purchase of combat capable fixed-wings must be planned in the context of transport equipment, helicopters, maritime patrol aircraft, ect it is going to be a drawn out process.
              Perhaps it might be better if Ireland were to buy itself into one of the various light-fighter programs, or is that what you are suggesting CQ.
              Last edited by Turkey; 25 January 2004, 00:16.
              "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
              Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
              Illegitimi non carborundum

              Comment


              • #8
                Ok, there is no bloody way Ireland would buy into a fighter program. Why? Well people would do their nut, you see the stink about Irish companys producing "dual use" equipment. It'd become a huge election issue and would quite possibly, on its own, get the government who instigated it knocked out of power, with their replacements pulling out of the program.

                If the government were to buy fighter aircraft its pretty simple how it'd have to be done: quickly and quietly. Once its done its done.

                We are also talking about a quantum leap here in anything the air corps have ever operated.

                If the government are going to purchase anything I think they'll go for new Gripens or the L-159 from the Czechs second hand stockpile.. even though the aircraft are only a few years old, so they'd be rather cheap. I'd like the gripen for its supersonic capabilitys... but.. well what do I know.

                In the absence of new light Heli's and ML Heli's.... not to mention a cessna replacement, I don't think we'll see the fighter issue coming up in the lifetime of this government... UNLESS.. theres an aircraft based terrorist attack on an EU city... then the shit will truely hit the fan. And questions about whether fighter aircraft could intercept a terrorist aircraft/ the morals, will fly out the window because people will be in a panic..

                Anyway just my poorly written 2 cents.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Leasing is also an option. The Czechs and the Hungarians are already doing it. There are lots of F16s available right now. Mr Smith could pick up the phone and ask Tony for the loan and training support for 4 tornadoes tomorrow morning. This would handle the short term say 6 years if you like until Ireland gets ready to buy or lease new aircraft.

                  I'm not even sure that we need 8 jetplanes but we certainly need some.

                  "When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love."


                  Marcus Aurelius Roman Emperor (161 to 180 A.D.)

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                  • #10
                    Here we go again....
                    Meh.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I dont really want to go into whether the Irish government will buy into a fighter program, or how the public will go crazy. Defence is something that a government just simply has to do, and getting invovled in something like the JSF programme is something the government should be implementing. Its the right time frame/cost etc for the aircorps and Ireland.

                      They are making some progress with replacing the A3, bought the PC-9 and may purchase the 2 medium lift helis. Ireland has already purchased radio, anti-tank missiles etc from the US so buying US aircraft is ok but thats another thread.


                      I think most people on the board would agree with that at the moment what the Aircorps need is 8 L-159. However in 5+ years things will probably look completely different and that capabilty isnt going to be up to much.

                      I have to agree with Turkey, the Eurofighter is out of the game, an expensive airframe ,made by governments for a different role ,different time and not exactly future proof.

                      The JSF is probably going to be the cheapest most capable new fighter of its type being produced, the Short-Takeoff/Vertical Landing (STOVL) capability is just what the aircorps and Ireland needs.

                      Renting airframes is defintely an option, but looking at what they paid for medium lift SAR (as far as i can recall) they could have actually bought new helis for that price.

                      Large defence deals have offsets. The €260million (at US Navy prices)price tag is bound to either provide lucerative jobs for Ireland or provide trade offsets.


                      more info:
                      http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/jsf.htm

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        N-E-Foo do you ever actually read anyone elses posts?
                        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ......

                          I was just giving an opinion at 4am. I skimmed through the posts. I have been known in the past to read posts thoroughly. If I went off topic I apologise, but thats hardly a crime committed only by me. I just think the role of the electorate is fundamental in discussing any future aircraft purchases.... anyway..

                          Andy, I agree with your reasons for going for the F-35, but would the CTOL version, the F-35A not be the best option? Do we really need an aircraft with vertical landing capability, it'd be more complex and presumably more expensive too.

                          Heres an interesting guide to various combat aircrafts cost: http://www.military.cz/accessories/prices/prices_en.htm

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I vote that the L-159 be banned form discussion here ever again!!!
                            It was discounted as useless in 2002 yet someone always brings it back up.

                            Thanks for the Link btw
                            "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The F-35, in all of its guises, is almost exclusively a strike fighter. Its also huge, over weight, waaaay the hell overcost. Its pork, pure and simple.

                              If we were in the market for a fighter, and were actually going to do it properly, a Gripen/MAKO stype fighter would be the least (datalinked and with AIM-120/Meteor they'd actually be useful), and a Typhoon/Rafale would be optimal. Typhoon gets my vote. Ask the Austrians.

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