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  • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
    If we want to stick with the small end of medium, these 2 are the candiates. Buy 18 + 6 AW 101, or 18 AW 101 or something to that effect.
    What would you do with 18 AW101? it's a very big aircraft with a nasty downdraft.

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    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

      What would you do with 18 AW101? it's a very big aircraft with a nasty downdraft.
      fundamentally I am going with submission 199. And the size gives you a lot of tactical mobility. And it does not seem to have the issues of the NH 90

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      • IMHO the AC needs the ability to lift at least an Inf Pln (which of course covers other eventualities as well) anywhere in the State at short notice.

        if we are talking about a section sized heli, that means 4 on the flight line and serviceable. Which means probably 7-8 required.

        Also IMHO we should be looking to have the capability to deploy 4 helis overseas at any one time. Helis are a critical requirement for UN and other operations and always in short supply (with UN ops there could also be financial benefits to offset the cost).

        but realistically the best option is probably bigger than something section sized

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        • A factor to remember is that ‘Atts and Dets’ are a part of the package. A Pln may not be three sections of nine plus a HQ. If you look back at MINURCAT, an Irish Pln level patrol by air was actually 45 strong when you included CIMIC teams, interpreters and an element to secure the HLS. This meant you needed three Mi 8s to move a platoon in one lift instead of two.

          If the overall policy is to continue ops in parts of Africa, then similar numbers are likely, which means that even if an AC heli never serves overseas, that’s the numbers that will be required to be lifted on MREs. If you have the personnel to do this with lots of light mediums, fine. If you don’t then you need bigger aircraft for the same amount of crew/ techs. Note though that most forces will still have a smaller platform for urban ops.

          I reckon you’re still looking at two types for ops and potentially another for training.

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          • Originally posted by Declan View Post
            A factor to remember is that ‘Atts and Dets’ are a part of the package. A Pln may not be three sections of nine plus a HQ. If you look back at MINURCAT, an Irish Pln level patrol by air was actually 45 strong when you included CIMIC teams, interpreters and an element to secure the HLS. This meant you needed three Mi 8s to move a platoon in one lift instead of two.

            If the overall policy is to continue ops in parts of Africa, then similar numbers are likely, which means that even if an AC heli never serves overseas, that’s the numbers that will be required to be lifted on MREs. If you have the personnel to do this with lots of light mediums, fine. If you don’t then you need bigger aircraft for the same amount of crew/ techs. Note though that most forces will still have a smaller platform for urban ops.

            I reckon you’re still looking at two types for ops and potentially another for training.
            As in:
            EC135 (or similar replacement)
            AW139 (or similar replacement)
            and
            a larger medium lift

            ?

            Comment


            • If you’re going for a bigger main fleet, and a smaller operational type, the smaller type could still be a trainer ie 145/101 combo. If you’re going light, medium, heavy you could go with a smaller trainer like keeping a 135 fleet ( only more of them).

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              • The 135 (or 145 for that matter, given the current pilot training story) are excellent aircraft with a multitude of uses. Their relatively small footprint and generic appearance make them ideal for military use. We should have a lot more than the 2 currently in service.

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                • Originally posted by Declan View Post

                  I reckon you’re still looking at two types for ops and potentially another for training.
                  Submission 199 reckons as one option 12 AW 13/49 and 6 CH47. I'd rather go with one type, hence AW 101

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                  • [QUOTE=Graylion;n728622]

                    Submission 199 reckons as one option 12 AW 13/49 and 6 CH47. I'd rather go with one type, hence AW 101[/QU

                    "light type" could be 8 EC145/645 for training, air ambulance, domestic counter terrorism, possible overseas! Belgium has deployed AW109 in Mali as Medevac. Maybe 2 more for GASU.
                    "medium type" could be 8 Puma/Cougar/Eh101 etc for troop transport/national SAR/firefighting/overseas, should be enough to maintain a 2/3 aircraft detatchment.

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                    • I think we can rule any Puma variant out of the future mix. It's a 50 year old design. Rotary wing tech has moved on. Even Airbus are not offering it as a replacement for Puma.

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                      • It is no surprise that for the RAF Puma replacement both the AW149 and H175 helicopters are being offered, this is what most think the UK will look for; a cheap replacement not just for the SA330s but also the Bell 212/412s and AS365s in service today. Neither the AW149 nor the H175 are true military aircraft lacking many of the features that modern purpose designed medium military helicopter. But we should not forget that the original SA330 Puma only has a MTOW of 7000kg and can only carry 16 troops. This is a long way from the more modern H225 which has a MTOW of 11,200kg and carries 28 troops!

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                        • There is always going to be a case for having a small LUH, such as the H135/145. These are now normally the entry level training helicopter but as seen by the recent request for and deployment of German SF H145Ms to Kabul they also have an operational niche; rapid deployment for SF actions.

                          Now I will probably be in a minority of 1, but if a proper medium lift helicopter is to replace the AW139s then it should be the NH90 and more specifically the Italian MH-90A (MITT) variant. This is the modified naval version of the TTH with the folding rotors etc. This is primarily a troop transport but one that is designed to operate from ships as well. I know it has issues at the start but it is now a mature product and if we are honest many of the issue were due to the procurement processes rather than the aircraft itself. But I also know that NH Industries would never get a chance to offer the aircraft as its majority owners (Airbus 62.5%, Leonardo 32%) have competing products.

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                          • and small-ish helicopters also have the advantage of being easily transported in a C130 or similar aircraft, on ships or even on trucks so they can be shifted quite quickly to the sharp end..........with regard to the Puma, it was originally supposed to replace the Wessex in RAF and BA service yet not be as big as a Sea King (too big for confined LZs) and be able to lift a field gun or a ton of munitions or water or POL but it was disliked by them for having a high C of G,which made it unsafe on some surfaces. It was also meant to fend off the UH-1 Huey as a competitor.

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