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  • Alternative TTH solutions?

    To get away from the fighter loop for a while, what about the need for a Troop Transport helicopter establishment to meet the Army's operational needs?
    We have been commited to a two type model (and at the moment a "Cadre" TTH fleet), but what scope is there for manouvre in that model?
    For instance why cant the LUH have a limited TTH capability?
    Admittedly it would require a light medium lift rather than the EC-135 class, but then again the AIII is undoubtedly the IACs most utile aircraft and it was contemporary to the UH-1B.
    Therefore I would like to suggest the possibility of using a light medium lifter like the Bell 212 or W-3W Sokol both of which are in use as light assault transports backed up by heavier more capable but less agile helicopters.

    The second vital component of the fleet would be a capacious MLH capable of moving a battalion in less than forty lifts and with sufficient sling load to carry an L118 or LTV.
    The problem is cost, a fleet of MLHs is likely to be over a 100m Euro.
    The possibility of a gradually developed mixed fleet based on essentially the same airframe should not be overlooked though.
    For instance a small number of Cougars (2-4) forms the basis of the fleet while cheaper but compatible airframes and avionics sets, Cougar-100/ IAR-330M are acquired over a 6 year period to flesh out the fleet to the point where the army can actually integrate helicopter mobility into its operational planning as something other than a negative.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  • #2
    The W-3W is actually in the same class as the Dauphin but it is used to carry between 6-8 Polish aircav soldiers at a time, but then they Fastrope onto the target so its probably 6-8 Bergenless Soldiers.
    Seats 12 Passengers in non-tac configuration or 8 survivors and three attendants in SAR.
    All in all a nice little bird.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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    • #3
      Heard that we could get 3 blackhawks second hand for less than 15 million to start off a light / medium TTH capability. That would leave the door open for expansion to H 92s at a later date but would give a credible air lift capacity for development in the roles we are talking about. Unfortunately, it also raises questions of what to train pilots on in the first place if we are stuck with two types. Nice dream tho...

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      • #4
        2 or 3 Blackhawks would be great (i reckon we ned 3 minimum).

        Surely more of these will come onto the market now that the americans are looking into newer things like (for example) the Osprey project. Theyre keen on multipurpose equipment, in its a heli, no its a plane, no its a heli :D but i heard about it years ago and its still got teething problems, impressive platform for rapid extremely flexible and mobile troop movements.

        Back to the thread, I doubt Ospreys will ever grace the Don with IAC roundels on them, maybe the solution is looking to place a tender for second hand medium lift helis with offsets (surely cheaper than purchasing new ones??) with our history of maintenance (the AIII's are still in the air for Gods sake!) we could really get good use out of them (if they arrive reasonably well maintained)
        "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
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        • #5
          While the Dreaded Osprey is held back with endless delays,the Department of Defense (US) is considering a US manufactured version of the EHI01 Known as the US101 to fulfil the role.


          Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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          • #6
            Sikorsky fancy their chances with the S-92, if it comes to that.
            .
            .
            .
            With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

            Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

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            • #7
              According to AFM , CHC are supplying 10 Cougars,5 new and 5 refurbished to the German goverment (police I think).Would this be a runner for the A.C. 2-4 cougars along with a smaller number of the new light heli ( my few euro would be on the EC135)
              What do you all think.

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              • #8
                I think what is needed is a ramped heli like the EH 101 or the S-92 which could move light vehicles, mostly the ARW's recce and intervention vehicles where they are needed anything smaller would be limited tactically
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                Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

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                • #9
                  CHC were one of the tenders in the final competition for the infamous Medium Lift helis,intending to lease a number of Cougars/Super Pumas.

                  I agree that the ramp should be a requirement though,for ease of deploying troops,whether or not they have vehicles. The step into the cabin of a puma is a bit on the high side...


                  Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mutter nutter
                    I think what is needed is a ramped heli like the EH 101 or the S-92 which could move light vehicles, mostly the ARW's recce and intervention vehicles where they are needed anything smaller would be limited tactically
                    You've clearly never heard of sling loading then?
                    It is in fact quite common practice.
                    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                    • #11
                      Yes of course I've heard of slingloading I also know that the vehicles/cargo have to be specially prepared for it and that it limits the speed and g-load of the heli so it is not used in the intial assault phase of a landing as it would be too easy a target, it is used to move larger pieces of equipment such as 155mm towed artillary and larger vehicles by larger cargo heli's like the chinook or ch-55 which I think you'll agree are a wee bit bigger then what the Air Corp are looking for
                      Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

                      Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

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                      • #12
                        Well a H-60 alone can sling load a vehicle in the HMMWV class or an L118, as for preparation being needed its not quite a case of just driving a jeep up the ramp anyway, in fact you really only want to be carrying something that big in a heavylift helicopter with a volumous cabin which as you say is bigger than we're looking at.
                        I'm no fan of the H-60 in particular (infact Id regard as a triumph of good avionics over a not very good aircraft) but it should be noted that a helicopter needs to be judged by more than just its cabin capacity.
                        The only aircraft we have ever seriously looked at with a rear ramp was the EH101 which is rrreeally expensive
                        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                        • #13
                          I get what your saying all I was trying to say was that maybe we should get something with a bit of growth potential to be able to take on new tasks/missions instead of a smaller more assault orientated helo like the h-60, we are never going to get a multi layered helo force so I do genuinely think we should go for as much capability as possible if that is the EH-101 than it should not be dismissed because of cost so easily


                          ps: I thought the S-92 had a ramp:confused:
                          Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

                          Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

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                          • #14
                            Some variants do. http://www.aerospace-technology.com/...s92/index.html

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                            • #15
                              I see that page as not been updated, they still think we are getting the S92
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