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  • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    Would having a military primary radar actually change anything? The Russian are not so stupid as to actually enter our sovereign airspace, they are a problem for our control zone but that is all. Radar is just one element of a air defence system and just having one part does not add so much. Having a long range radar that identifies targets is useless unless it can be intercepted.

    Now I know some will now say but we have an agreement with the UK; they will provide Eurofighters cover if we need that capability once. But the UK is divesting from Eurofighter, they will not replace their Tranche 1 aircraft and even the F35 buy is being reduced. So the RAF will be hard pressed to meet their primary missions without providing cover for us. And they are not alone, the reason why Rafales are available is that the too are being phased out. Although in the case of France they are buying replacements to keep the numbers.

    It is now more than 20 years since 9/11 and as the saying goes a day in politics is long and much can change. Politicians have extremely short memories and as nothing like that has happened again they feel secure in not having to have a proper air defence system in this country. And to put even a proper radar and control system in-place would cost several €100m's I do not see the benefit without the other elements. If such capital was available there are many other priorities that would better serve the defence of the nation.
    My answer would be why does it have to be a military spec or DF owned/operated radar?

    The current threat is a “hazard to navigation” outside Irish Territorial Airspace but instead the Irish FIR which Ireland (the IAA) is responsible for the safe navigation of tens of the of flights per year through (pre covid it’s hundreds of thousands). A medium range PSR will improve safety. Of course that threat can change rapidly.

    If we can’t detect the threat does that mean no threat

    Comment


    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

      A number of inaccurate presumptions there.
      The russian presence in sovereign airspace is not the issue, it's their passage, and operation in Irish controlled international airspace where the problems lie. Them flying through without transponder activated is a danger to all other aircraft in transit from the US and Canada.
      Our agreement with the UK is unseen but reports of RAF following Russian Aircraft have revealed one thing. The RAF may transit (briefly) through sovereign airspace (usually up north) but once the russian enters Irish controlled airspace the RAF head for home, sometimes leaving interception south of irish airspace to the French AF/Navy or other RAF QRA. The Large chunk of Irish airspace that stretches 200 miles to the west is never entered by the RAF. Once the russians are in there, they can be monitored by RAF AWACS flying over Scotland. If the russians turn back, QRA is back up.
      Having a military presence at Irish ATC in Ballycasey or wherever would give controllers a direct point of contact should military decision making be required, whether it was to alert the RAF, or even to make a call on radio on behalf of the Irish government making a demand to an aircraft. Obviously ATC already make demands of aircraft and are covered by international regulations, but having a military presence adds another diplomatic level to that demand. Adding primary radar looking west into that 200 mile chunk also helps to show what isn't squalking.
      It’s my understanding (open to correction) that there is a QRA escort the whole way (including AARs) with a handover to the French.

      Advantage off IAA purchased and operated would be it feed into COOPANS and ARTAS.

      then have all that feed into the AC RAP at Baldonnel and elsewhere


      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post

        It’s my understanding (open to correction) that there is a QRA escort the whole way (including AARs) with a handover to the French.

        Advantage off IAA purchased and operated would be it feed into COOPANS and ARTAS.

        then have all that feed into the AC RAP at Baldonnel and elsewhere

        I saw an analysis of interceptions recently on milradar and did not seem to be the case.
        Mil Radar — LiveJournal


        also HJS 'Close Encounters' Report NEW.qxd (henryjacksonsociety.org)
        For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

          I saw an analysis of interceptions recently on milradar and did not seem to be the case.
          Mil Radar — LiveJournal


          also HJS 'Close Encounters' Report NEW.qxd (henryjacksonsociety.org)
          Good find

          we definitely need medium range PSR now

          Comment


          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

            A number of inaccurate presumptions there.
            The russian presence in sovereign airspace is not the issue, it's their passage, and operation in Irish controlled international airspace where the problems lie. Them flying through without transponder activated is a danger to all other aircraft in transit from the US and Canada.
            Our agreement with the UK is unseen but reports of RAF following Russian Aircraft have revealed one thing. The RAF may transit (briefly) through sovereign airspace (usually up north) but once the russian enters Irish controlled airspace the RAF head for home, sometimes leaving interception south of irish airspace to the French AF/Navy or other RAF QRA. The Large chunk of Irish airspace that stretches 200 miles to the west is never entered by the RAF. Once the russians are in there, they can be monitored by RAF AWACS flying over Scotland. If the russians turn back, QRA is back up.
            Having a military presence at Irish ATC in Ballycasey or wherever would give controllers a direct point of contact should military decision making be required, whether it was to alert the RAF, or even to make a call on radio on behalf of the Irish government making a demand to an aircraft. Obviously ATC already make demands of aircraft and are covered by international regulations, but having a military presence adds another diplomatic level to that demand. Adding primary radar looking west into that 200 mile chunk also helps to show what isn't squalking.
            Firstly I said "The Russian are not so stupid as to actually enter our sovereign airspace". As for a RAF fighter entering our FIR, as long as it remains outside the 12 mile limit it can do that provided it clears that with ATC. If it was tracking a "dark" Russian aircraft I am sure this would be forthcoming and indeed the RAF would have an interest in doing so. It would be to display their capability to continuously shadow the intruder.

            Secondly the RAF no longer has any AWACS capacity as they have retired their E3 fleet earlier this year and their replacements will not stat arriving for another two years. In the meantime cover is provided by the NATO AWACS fleet operating out of Geilenkirchen in Germany. The track you showed is of the tanker aircraft that support any QRA launch as it started in Brize and flew several racetrack patterns typical of an AAR aircraft.

            As for a military presence in Ballycasey I agree but is it wanted? It has been reported that during the discussions on the secret agreement the RAF requested that the IAC be involved but it was rejected by our side!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
              As for a military presence in Ballycasey I agree but is it wanted? It has been reported that during the discussions on the secret agreement the RAF requested that the IAC be involved but it was rejected by our side!
              Well the IAA made a submission to the CoDF, in which they have said they believe the DF/DoD should have a part to play in monitoring the airspace, although how they suggest this is done has been redacted for obvious reasons.

              https://assets.gov.ie/136319/214528c...da8f6fdcdb.pdf

              1. Aircraft Range: The Defence Forces should have full capability to detect potential aircraft infringements into our national airspace. At the moment, the IAA are doing some monitoring...>>>REDACTED<<<... and reporting to the Department of Transport (DoT); however, the IAA believes it would be best practice for the Defence Forces/ Department of Defence to have a role in the monitoring, reporting and classification of these occurrences, ...>>>REDACTED<<<... The IAA will be happy to discuss this matter in more detail with the Commission as appropriate.
              It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
              It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
              It was a new age...It was the end of history.
              It was the year everything changed.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                The track you showed is of the tanker aircraft that support any QRA launch as it started in Brize and flew several racetrack patterns typical of an AAR aircraft.
                the link shows that RAF fighters didn’t enter the Irish FIR

                Comment


                • Want to know why SAMs can’t do air policing?

                  listen to the whole thing (but specifically from around 16:00)

                  context is this was a F16 pilot protecting Cheyenne Mountain (NORAD) on 9/11

                  https://youtu.be/SHQMa2jt9Bc

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                    Good find

                    we definitely need medium range PSR now
                    why not long range?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Graylion View Post

                      why not long range?
                      Generally that will be for anti-ballistic missile defence, cost and 120-200 nm range would be plenty

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                        Generally that will be for anti-ballistic missile defence, cost and 120-200 nm range would be plenty
                        Well here is two option's from Leonardo,

                        ATC Primary radar (jointly by IAA/DoD - Most Likely)
                        https://www.leonardocompany.com/docu...=1540998647333
                        Miilitary Air Defence Radar (by DoD only - Least Likely)
                        https://www.leonardocompany.com/docu...=1631522945438
                        Last edited by CTU; 17 December 2021, 11:13.
                        It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                        It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                        It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                        It was the year everything changed.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CTU View Post

                          Well here is two option's from Leonardo,

                          ATC Primary radar (jointly by IAA/DoD - Most Likely)
                          https://www.leonardocompany.com/docu...=1540998647333
                          Miilitary Air Defence Radar (by DoD only - Least Likely)
                          https://www.leonardocompany.com/docu...=1631522945438
                          Yup The ATC one would be a good start. And it is a LongRange one. I see no reason to get a MediumRange one.

                          Edit: anybody know what that thing costs?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Graylion View Post

                            Yup The ATC one would be a good start. And it is a LongRange one. I see no reason to get a MediumRange one.

                            Edit: anybody know what that thing costs?
                            And if the Air Corps think the need a stand alone system, then maybe a Passive Radar System to compliment the Civil ATC Primary maybe the way to go?

                            https://www.leonardocompany.com/docu...=1631521293852

                            According to Leonardo the Aulos system works by using radio signals from commercial broadcasting towers as the transmitter, with a standalone receiver located separately. And IIRC, RTE alone have a number of tv/radio transmitters along the west coast.
                            Last edited by CTU; 17 December 2021, 12:04.
                            It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                            It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                            It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                            It was the year everything changed.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CTU View Post

                              Well here is two option's from Leonardo,

                              ATC Primary radar (jointly by IAA/DoD - Most Likely)
                              https://www.leonardocompany.com/docu...=1540998647333
                              Miilitary Air Defence Radar (by DoD only - Least Likely)
                              https://www.leonardocompany.com/docu...=1631522945438
                              Those are generally medium range in radar terms (but it’s really potato/patato)

                              for example Thales SMART-L carries out space surveillance at a range of up to 2000 km



                              we need approx 200 nm range

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post

                                Yup The ATC one would be a good start. And it is a LongRange one. I see no reason to get a MediumRange one.

                                Edit: anybody know what that thing costs?
                                Austria bought 1 x RAT-31DL in 2002 for €25m and a further 2 in 2006 for €50m

                                https://www.forecastinternational.co...m?recno=222455

                                Comment

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