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  • Originally posted by CTU View Post

    And if the Air Corps think the need a stand alone system, then maybe a Passive Radar System to compliment the Civil ATC Primary maybe the way to go?

    https://www.leonardocompany.com/docu...=1631521293852

    According to Leonardo the Aulos system works by using radio signals from commercial broadcasting towers as the transmitter, with a standalone receiver located separately. And IIRC, RTE alone have a number of tv/radio transmitters along the west coast.
    It’s interesting, basically software defined radar

    http://www.scienpress.com/Upload/JCM/Vol%209_2_3.pdf

    I would say 3 things:
    - altitude coverage is limited to ~15,000 feet
    - are those transmitters powerful enough to get the range we’d need ?
    - what does the future hold for some of those transmitters? Will they be replaced by online radio for example?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DeV View Post

      Austria bought 1 x RAT-31DL in 2002 for €25m and a further 2 in 2006 for €50m

      https://www.forecastinternational.co...m?recno=222455
      Any idea about the Civilan ones?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post

        It’s interesting, basically software defined radar

        http://www.scienpress.com/Upload/JCM/Vol%209_2_3.pdf

        I would say 3 things:
        - altitude coverage is limited to ~15,000 feet
        - are those transmitters powerful enough to get the range we’d need ?
        - what does the future hold for some of those transmitters? Will they be replaced by online radio for example?
        During the weekend I used the Line of Sight website that was in this thread earlier, and noticed that even though Primary Radar Heads in Mayo and Cork may give good High Altitude Coverage, they may still be gaps at Low Level particularly around the South East.

        So while the Altitude Coverage would be an issue on its own, I think Passive Radar may be a possible low cost solution to plug any gaps at low level (Where the Threats don't just include military aircraft, but also General Aviation and Commercial Drones being used by Criminal / Terrorist Elements) in conjunction with any Civil/Military Primary Heads.

        As for the transmitters, well DAB never really took off in Ireland and RTE LW is still surviving, in the short term at least, I think FM will be around for a while yet, as well as TV, and with the abundance of other commercial RF communication systems, I'm sure the system can be future proofed.
        It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
        It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
        It was a new age...It was the end of history.
        It was the year everything changed.

        Comment


        • One thing that might be missed in this discussion is that, while there is short range civilian primary radar at the three State airports, it exists to provide a rudimentary means of recovering aircraft in the event of SSR failures as well as to enable surveillance of aircraft operating without a transponder near to the airports. What this primary radar does not do is to provide any altitude or height information, which is a vital part of military air defence operations. Therefore to simply reapportion or share the existing PSR data with the military would not serve a very useful purpose.
          "Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied."

          Otto Von Bismark

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Eddie Dillon View Post
            One thing that might be missed in this discussion is that, while there is short range civilian primary radar at the three State airports, it exists to provide a rudimentary means of recovering aircraft in the event of SSR failures as well as to enable surveillance of aircraft operating without a transponder near to the airports. What this primary radar does not do is to provide any altitude or height information, which is a vital part of military air defence operations. Therefore to simply reapportion or share the existing PSR data with the military would not serve a very useful purpose.
            But at least they know there is something there

            a lot of the Irish FIR doesn’t have any primary radar coverage and neither does some parts of our territorial airspace

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DeV View Post

              But at least they know there is something there

              a lot of the Irish FIR doesn’t have any primary radar coverage and neither does some parts of our territorial airspace
              Absolutely true but it would be a far bigger capability leap for the country to have full 3d primary coverage which would allow its military to have full surveillance capability rather than a half way house. Surveillance is still only the first step, there's still the glaring gap of not being able to do anything about it but better if the first step is actually a step rather than a shuffle.
              "Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied."

              Otto Von Bismark

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Eddie Dillon View Post

                Absolutely true but it would be a far bigger capability leap for the country to have full 3d primary coverage which would allow its military to have full surveillance capability rather than a half way house. Surveillance is still only the first step, there's still the glaring gap of not being able to do anything about it but better if the first step is actually a step rather than a shuffle.
                No point in us having having F35s (or any other Jet) without knowing when to launch

                absolutely agree on 3D requirement, something I’d forgotten TBH, wonder if any of the civvy spec medium/long range PSRs are 3D ?

                Comment


                • Nice deal for Hungarian Gripens!
                  Saab to Deliver Upgrade for Hungarian Gripen Fleet


                  The Hungarian Government Commissioner Office responsible for defence development and the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) have successfully completed the negotiations for the MS20 Block 2 capability upgrade to the Hungarian fleet of Gripen fighter aircraft. Saab will deliver the upgrade.


                  The MS20 Block 2 upgrade brings a number of improvements. It greatly increases both Gripen’s combat and communication capabilities, as well as access to a wide range of weapons that can be integrated on Hungarian Air Force (HunAF) Gripen fighters. Sensor capability is being enhanced by a radar upgrade to the PS-05/A Mk 4 which means that the air-to-air target tracking range as well as the performance increases significantly. This allows better detection capability of small air- to-air targets, improved clutter suppression, and brings growth potential for further developments in the air-to air and air-to-ground modes.

                  The MS20 Block 2 upgrade for HunAF Gripen fleet also enhances the communication capabilities by enhancing Link16 (NATO Data link) functionality and updated voice communication to the latest NATO secure communication standard. Capability to identify coalition aircrafts will be also improved by introducing the latest Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) NATO Mode 5.

                  This upgrade will allow Hungary to choose from a wider selection of weapons to fit to their Gripens: IRIS-T - infrared Within Visual Range (WVR) Air to Air missile, GBU-49 - modern Air to Ground laser guided bomb and Meteor – an advanced, long-range, radar-guided, BVRAAM that is superior to other missiles of its type.

                  “Thanks to the modernisation of the Hungarian Gripen aircraft, the operational capabilities of the Hungarian Air Force will be significantly increased. Our staff has appreciated a close and fruitful cooperation with the Swedish side on this specific modernization project as well as the cooperation during the 15 years that we have operated Gripen aircraft,” says Major General Nandor Kilian, HDF Air Force Inspector.

                  “During this period of 15 years since first Gripen landed at Kecskemet Air Base, it is clear that the Hungarian Air Force has taken the step to be one of the premiere air forces in Europe and is a real contributor to NATO and EU operations. With these changes introduced by MS20 Block 2 upgrade, Hungary will get an even more efficient and powerful aircraft, capable of competing in every respect with any other next generation fighter aircraft,” says Jonas Hjelm, head of Saab business area Aeronautics.

                  Over 150 million people in five countries on three continents rely on Gripen C/D fighters to protect their sovereign air space and ensuring their independence.

                  For further information, please contact:

                  Saab Press Centre,

                  +46 (0)734 180 018,

                  presscentre@saabgroup.com

                  www.saab.com

                  Twitter: @Saab

                  Facebook: @Saab

                  LinkedIn: Saab

                  Instagram: Saab

                  Saab is a leading defence and security company with an enduring mission, to help nations keep their people and society safe. Empowered by its 18,000 talented people, Saab constantly pushes the boundaries of technology to create a safer, more sustainable and more equitable world. Saab designs, manufactures and maintains advanced systems in aeronautics, weapons, command and control, sensors and underwater systems. Saab is headquartered in Sweden. It has major operations all over the world and is part of the domestic defence capability of several nations.
                  Saab to Deliver Upgrade for Hungarian Gripen Fleet
                  For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    Yup, and that allows them to use Meteor and Iris-T

                    https://www.overtdefense.com/2021/12...ation-program/

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Graylion View Post

                      Yup, and that allows them to use Meteor and Iris-T

                      https://www.overtdefense.com/2021/12...ation-program/
                      By the sound of things, it makes their C/D comparable to E/F in terms of potential armaments, thus further extending their service life (Now that Hungary has chosen to Buy them outright).
                      For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                        By the sound of things, it makes their C/D comparable to E/F in terms of potential armaments, thus further extending their service life (Now that Hungary has chosen to Buy them outright).
                        All they will need next is Saab's new AESA X band radar which will be offered to Gripen C/D operators as an upgrade.

                        https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-...dar-in-the-air

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Anzac View Post

                          All they will need next is Saab's new AESA X band radar which will be offered to Gripen C/D operators as an upgrade.

                          https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-...dar-in-the-air
                          That's a Hell of a radar.
                          For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

                          Comment


                          • So....the Finns are going for the F-35, specifically, 64 of them for around €4.3Bn. Enough to keep Vlad and the Russian Airforce in their box? I guess we'll find out, but one thing for sure, they'll be more useful at that job than eight PC-9's doing the job!
                            Last edited by ODIN; Yesterday, 10:47.
                            What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ODIN View Post
                              So....the Finns are going for the F-35, specifically, 64 of them for around €4.3Bn. Enough to keep Vlad and the Russian Airforce in their box? I guess we'll find out, but one thing for sure, they'll be more useful at that job than eight PC-9's doing the job!
                              Reading some of the commentary (from folk who know a lot more about this sort of thing) in Selecting the F35 Finland also did away with the requirement for a standalone AEWACS platform (or two) such is the ability of its own onboard radar to network and be networked with ground based radar, as well as other aircraft of type.
                              The standstill period passed, all the other vendors are happy with the decision (which is surprising) which in itself speaks multitudes of their belief in their own platform. At the end of the day it is a Gen 5 aircraft, expected to remain in service till the 2060s. To put that into context, it was competing against aircraft that first flew in the 1980s.
                              That would be the same as if a frontline air force today was still operating Grumman Hellcats or North American Mustangs.
                              For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

                              Comment


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                                What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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