Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Defending the Irish airspace

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I have always believed we only need a basic trainer here, and were we to embark on the Fast Jet route, leave out the in-between completely, as there are so many other larger air arms with LIFT programs.
    The LIFT aircraft, in Irish use has the danger of being seen for something more than what it is. And with a small force such as who we are, would we have enough pilots to stay current on Basic trainer, LIFT, and Fast Jet?(as well as the other operational types). Our climate does not lend to having weather windows for much of our training flying all year round. Indeed you could rule out December to March for much VFR work completely.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

    Comment


    • The risk (danger) calculation can work the other way. Waiting for a future ideal solution that may not eventuate.

      Can Ireland afford to wait over decade or more when we have a deteriorating strategic context to get a squadron sized air combat capability using Gripen/F-16V as the baseline capability up to OLOC? Moreover, is there a guarantee that the LOA3 funding required of around €2 billion when all aspects are included to get that capability established, when there are other competing interests within Defence that will also need to be sustained?

      Military flying in civilian airspace is IFR and MARSA and all flights are planned and filed for both day and night. If the weather is really bad, and it needs to be pretty awful, that is what simulators are for.
      Last edited by Anzac; 14 March 2022, 07:08.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
        The risk (danger) calculation can work the other way. Waiting for a future ideal solution that may not eventuate.

        Can Ireland afford to wait over decade or more when we have a deteriorating strategic context to get a squadron sized air combat capability using Gripen/F-16V as the baseline capability up to OLOC? Moreover, is there a guarantee that the LOA3 funding required of around €2 billion when all aspects are included to get that capability established, when there are other competing interests within Defence that will also need to be sustained?

        Military flying in civilian airspace is IFR and MARSA and all flights are planned and filed for both day and night. If the weather is really bad, and it needs to be pretty awful, that is what simulators are for.
        The Government and civil service have to recognise the “deteriorating strategic context” and the threat to Ireland first.

        The Governments 2IC doesn’t think €3b annually is realistic

        with regard to some kind of LIFT Jet for advanced training & air policing - that will effect availability for air policing. 12 aircraft will not cover both roles and that is before you add in other duties as you suggest

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DeV View Post

          with regard to some kind of LIFT Jet for advanced training & air policing - that will effect availability for air policing. 12 aircraft will not cover both roles and that is before you add in other duties as you suggest
          I think the suggestion there is start with a small squadron of aircraft to help build up the infrastructure, knowledge, and personnel. There was a submission on this that referred to this stage as "embryonic". From there you move to getting more advanced planes for training and air policing.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
            I have always believed we only need a basic trainer here, and were we to embark on the Fast Jet route, leave out the in-between completely, as there are so many other larger air arms with LIFT programs.
            The LIFT aircraft, in Irish use has the danger of being seen for something more than what it is. And with a small force such as who we are, would we have enough pilots to stay current on Basic trainer, LIFT, and Fast Jet?(as well as the other operational types). Our climate does not lend to having weather windows for much of our training flying all year round. Indeed you could rule out December to March for much VFR work completely.
            Good point about LIFT aircraft but there are 300 VFR days per year in Ireland, as an average, and it doesnt have to be absolutely blue skies to get a VFR flight in, even at 120 kts in a PC-9. You can fly most days, unless it's exceptionally windy, wet or low ceiling.

            Comment


            • Trying to build a full scope scheme from ab-intro to flying CAP is not necessary. For pilot training there are enough multi-national schemes which we could use. Remember we will need to develop doctrine et.al and this is easiest done with someone who already does this. That could all be part of the package as it can be very dependent upon the platform we will introduce. If we did go the Saab route then we should have a package including pilot training with the Swedes. If Rafale then with the French and so on. Trying to build up the same capability for such a small force makes no sense.

              Comment


              • A LIFT course for example in Canada with the International Training Program where it is CAN$9m per Hawk course seat will not teach doctrine. It will teach the individual student how to safely operate the aircraft and do it to a very high standard. Air Combat doctrine development comes through exposure to exercises and staff exchanges with other airforces and the unit flying regularly together in their own aircraft over a number of years.

                The most recent Air Force who have chosen to restore an air combat capability from scratch are the Philippine AF, who took soundings from their regional friends the USAF, JASDF, RoKAF, RSAF and RAAF about how to build capability development, recommended that they build capacity within the institution via an interim platform before they took the next step to their frontline fighter.

                So if you are not likely to get LOA3 anytime soon and thus not going to be in a position to have an air combat capability, though that is the ambition, what can you do to kick the process along in the short term under LOA2 - so that you will be ready and far more developed in a capability sense when the funding likely post 2030 kicks in?
                Last edited by Anzac; 14 March 2022, 21:28.

                Comment


                • ;;
                  Last edited by Soarhead2; 20 March 2022, 17:02.

                  Comment


                  • FFS!,
                    NO! Did you just fall in from another planet?
                    Jesus!
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Soarhead2 View Post
                      Another way to defend Ireland's airspace. One or two Grippens for interception & identification but most defence to be Israeli's Iron Dome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWt301HpV9U
                      Discuss please.
                      Just to Keep 2x Gripens on QRA 24/7 you need a Sqn+ at minimum, you know for Maintenance and Training etc..., and considering the type of people who are against any increase in Defence Spending, you can forget about Iron Dome ever being in Irish Service.
                      It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                      It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                      It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                      It was the year everything changed.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Soarhead2 View Post
                        Another way to defend Ireland's airspace. One or two Grippens for interception & identification but most defence to be Israeli's Iron Dome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWt301HpV9U
                        Discuss please.
                        As CTU says you need about 12 aircraft to keep 2 available 24/7/365

                        there is yet to be a SAM designed that can launch at a suspect aircraft, identify it, communication with and escort it

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CTU View Post

                          Just to Keep 2x Gripens on QRA 24/7 you need a Sqn+ at minimum, you know for Maintenance and Training etc..., and considering the type of people who are against any increase in Defence Spending, you can forget about Iron Dome ever being in Irish Service.
                          Even leaving out the issue of it being Israeli, none of the other SAM systems works either, as we aren’t going to be shooting down civilian airliners that don’t reply to Shannon without even looking.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                            There might be the option of the F-36 which could become the cheaper replacement of the vast numbers of F16 that the USAF need to replace. Little is known but if it is what some people think it could be available very soon. Well within the timeframe we would be looking at. As an outside option we could go Korean with their next offering the KF21.
                            That (F-36) is a paper plane. If that. I'd be surprised if that thing was deployable before 2040.

                            Comment


                            • https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/11...s-from-france/

                              More Rafales for Greece.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post

                                That (F-36) is a paper plane. If that. I'd be surprised if that thing was deployable before 2040.
                                In the medium term it is not really needed. The USAF and LM have started PoBIT a major SLEP/SLIP program for 608 current Vipers that will extend their operational life to over 12000 hours leveraging the trickle down effect of of the JSF programme and R&D from their supplier base, including Have Glass V surface treatment which gives it a lower RCS than for example a Block 50/52.

                                LM have the F-16 remanufacturing and F-35 new builds, Northrop Grumman have the B-21 and Boeing (with Saab) the T-7A, which spreads the congressional cash around the big US three manufacturers and states; with the news this week that the Navy and USAF will work on a new joint programme following the RFI for a single source tactical surrogate aircraft based on a single engine twin seat aircraft - which will be based I believe on developing the T-7A because though Boeing have the F-15EX locked in as well, the Super Hornet build is coming to an end and I cannot see that plant staying idle for political reasons.

                                A Boeing-Saab lightweight fighter-attack variant based on the T-7 or an e-Design development of it has a lot of compelling attributes not just as a surrogate tactical air support platform for the USAF/USN as well as advanced weapons and fighter tactics platform for the F-22, F-35 and NGAD programmes, but other smaller air forces around the globe, if it uses as some pundits expect the higher thrust GE F414 (per Gripen E and Super Hornet), AN/APG-84 AESA radar, IRST and the Have Glass V rcs reduction treatment.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X