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  • While my preference would be SAAB Gripens, I think in reality the most realistic / most likely solution is the KAI FA-50

    If I recall correctly, a recently published comparion of airframes suggested that 8 x FA-50's could be in place for €20 million per annum - not much higher than the €12 million per annum current spend on the PC-9M fleet
    Silver
    Sqdn. Ldr
    Last edited by Silver; 29 March 2022, 10:33.
    IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

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    • Originally posted by Silver View Post
      While my preference would be SAAB Gripens, I think in reality the most realistic / most likely solution is the KAI FA-50

      If I recall correctly, a recently published comparion of airframes suggested that 8 x FA-50's could be in place for €20 million per annum - not much higher than the €12 million per annum current spend on the PC-9M fleet
      Ah no, not you too?
      (Hi Silver, by the way, long time no see).

      The Cost benefit of the Korean product would be cancelled out by the lack of a presence in Western Europe. If you consider how often the Helis, the Pilatus and the casa have had to return to their factory (under their own power usually) for mechanical checks, and you consider the Logistics required to do the same to Sacheon.
      However if the Sloval deal goes through, and they have an assembly hub on this side of the planet, it may become a practical alternative.

      If you want LIFT that is.
      It doesn't have the speed to do air policing. Thats a dealbreaker. Mach 2 or forget it.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • A few F22s will be floating around soon enough:

        https://freepresskashmir.news/2022/0...-fighter-jets/

        Surely a sensible purchase for the likes of us /s

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        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

          Ah no, not you too?
          (Hi Silver, by the way, long time no see).

          The Cost benefit of the Korean product would be cancelled out by the lack of a presence in Western Europe. If you consider how often the Helis, the Pilatus and the casa have had to return to their factory (under their own power usually) for mechanical checks, and you consider the Logistics required to do the same to Sacheon.
          However if the Sloval deal goes through, and they have an assembly hub on this side of the planet, it may become a practical alternative.

          If you want LIFT that is.
          It doesn't have the speed to do air policing. Thats a dealbreaker. Mach 2 or forget it.
          The reason the aircraft go back to their manufacturers for overhaul is because the contracts are so tightly written in their favour (and it suits the AC to do so, has been the case since before the Casa days started). There is nothing required on any of those airframes that could not be conducted in Ireland. Ireland has always had the ability to conduct deep (and I mean Deep) overhauls on airframes as big as 747s and a lot of the skillset is still on hand. We used to overhaul the CFM -56 but a lot of that is gone now but Aer Lingus, DAL and Shannon still have a great deal of the skills and tools on hand. Irish companies routinely perform major C checks on Airbus and Boeing aircraft, carry out minor and major modifications on them and still command the respect of the aviation industry worldwide. You could probably conduct virtually all overhaul jobs on any AC aircraft without leaving the island.

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          • Originally posted by Jaque'ammer View Post
            A few F22s will be floating around soon enough:

            https://freepresskashmir.news/2022/0...-fighter-jets/

            Surely a sensible purchase for the likes of us /s
            If they sell them to anyone (they won't) we'll be at the very bottom of the list. The Saudi's wanted them, money no object. DOD said hell no. Rumour has it that Canada is the next newest member of the F35 club.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

              If they sell them to anyone (they won't) we'll be at the very bottom of the list. The Saudi's wanted them, money no object. DOD said hell no. Rumour has it that Canada is the next newest member of the F35 club.
              I was being sarcastic, don't worry

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              • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

                The reason the aircraft go back to their manufacturers for overhaul is because the contracts are so tightly written in their favour (and it suits the AC to do so, has been the case since before the Casa days started). There is nothing required on any of those airframes that could not be conducted in Ireland. Ireland has always had the ability to conduct deep (and I mean Deep) overhauls on airframes as big as 747s and a lot of the skillset is still on hand. We used to overhaul the CFM -56 but a lot of that is gone now but Aer Lingus, DAL and Shannon still have a great deal of the skills and tools on hand. Irish companies routinely perform major C checks on Airbus and Boeing aircraft, carry out minor and major modifications on them and still command the respect of the aviation industry worldwide. You could probably conduct virtually all overhaul jobs on any AC aircraft without leaving the island.
                If we had the personnel to do it

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                • Originally posted by Jaque'ammer View Post

                  I was being sarcastic, don't worry
                  Becoming harder to tell lately.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                    If we had the personnel to do it
                    No shortage of aircraft techs in Ireland but pay scales vary from very good for say, B1 or B2 Type rated (EU70K not unknown) to abysmal, especially for hangar/workshop people (barely above minimum wage) so a lot have left or retired and gone to tech or pharma. Skills are there, tooling and parts there but pay definitely not. Retention is not just a DF problem. The leasing companies soaked up a lot of people from the mainstream maintenance firms and the airlines but Covid and Ukraine have damaged that, to a certain extent. So, the end result is that their equivalent in Spain, France and Switzerland get the work, better pay, conditions and importantly, pensions and our aviation industry is in a race to the bottom and our State air arm suffers as a result. be careful what you wish for...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

                      No shortage of aircraft techs in Ireland but pay scales vary from very good for say, B1 or B2 Type rated (EU70K not unknown) to abysmal, especially for hangar/workshop people (barely above minimum wage) so a lot have left or retired and gone to tech or pharma. Skills are there, tooling and parts there but pay definitely not. Retention is not just a DF problem. The leasing companies soaked up a lot of people from the mainstream maintenance firms and the airlines but Covid and Ukraine have damaged that, to a certain extent. So, the end result is that their equivalent in Spain, France and Switzerland get the work, better pay, conditions and importantly, pensions and our aviation industry is in a race to the bottom and our State air arm suffers as a result. be careful what you wish for...
                      The AC aircraft are going to the manufacturers for the higher levels of servicing that would previously have been done with the AC because they don’t have the personnel

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                      • my point is that they are leaving the country for tasks that could easily be accomplished here. No shortage of talent, just pay and conditions.

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                        • Originally posted by Silver View Post
                          While my preference would be SAAB Gripens, I think in reality the most realistic / most likely solution is the KAI FA-50

                          If I recall correctly, a recently published comparion of airframes suggested that 8 x FA-50's could be in place for €20 million per annum - not much higher than the €12 million per annum current spend on the PC-9M fleet
                          Where did you get that €12 million figure from? Seems a bit wild.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Silver View Post
                            While my preference would be SAAB Gripens, I think in reality the most realistic / most likely solution is the KAI FA-50

                            If I recall correctly, a recently published comparion of airframes suggested that 8 x FA-50's could be in place for €20 million per annum - not much higher than the €12 million per annum current spend on the PC-9M fleet
                            Wasn’t that put forward by the firm in the Commission submissions? Not sure I’d trust their figures without an independent look.

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                            • Came across this in my travels https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srMoZhn4kzI

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                              • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post

                                Wasn’t that put forward by the firm in the Commission submissions? Not sure I’d trust their figures without an independent look.
                                You're thinking of the Leonardo submission which just offhandedly mentioned their trainer as an option.

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