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  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

    That train has already pulled out of the siding and is running downhill at speed. Too late to back it up and send it back to the shed now.
    Mid life upgrade at a later date…. What’s the alternative?

    only use them for fishery surveillance, SAR etc and buy something else as well ?

    sell them before they come into service ?

    Comment


    • 2 wasn't enough to begin with, buy more with the full ASW suite. Better yet, Buy P-8.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • The FA-50 is a light weight fighter aircraft with a limited ground attack capability. While the F414 engine and Phantom Strike radar will enhance its performance as a light weight fighter there is no integration of ASMs currently planned. IMHO integrating an ASM into this airframe would be asking a bit too much as it lack much of the defensive systems found on a JAS39. The Gripen is a full up multi role fighter and thus is equipped with a comprehensive range of active and passive defence systems. On the FA-50 these are not to the same level as the main operator does not use this aircraft on its own but as part of a much larger force with more capable aircraft.

        A potential naval target would be equipped with long range sensors and a multi layers defence system. Even an AESA radar such as the Phantom Strike would have a more limted range against maritime targets. Thus the target would likely see and be able to engage a FA-50 on a strike mission before it gets into range.

        The primary mission we want an aircraft like the FA-50 to undertake is air policing, showing the flag to long range bomber and MPA aircraft. We would not intend it to go head to head with other fighters or engage something like a DDG. It would be to show the Russians that we have close some of the backdoor to the UK. And if we are honest if we are to close it completely we would possible need some means of intercepting an air launched cruise missile as this is where our neighbour is vulnerable. They lack the means of intercepting such attacks and although the CAMM systems could provide some defence the Brits only plan to buy the standard version and not the CAMM-ER version.

        If we do want to have some form of "maritime strike" then lets arm the Navy first with the C-295 providing OTH targeting while staying out of range of shipborne SAMs.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          The FA-50 is a light weight fighter aircraft with a limited ground attack capability. While the F414 engine and Phantom Strike radar will enhance its performance as a light weight fighter there is no integration of ASMs currently planned. IMHO integrating an ASM into this airframe would be asking a bit too much as it lack much of the defensive systems found on a JAS39. The Gripen is a full up multi role fighter and thus is equipped with a comprehensive range of active and passive defence systems. On the FA-50 these are not to the same level as the main operator does not use this aircraft on its own but as part of a much larger force with more capable aircraft.

          A potential naval target would be equipped with long range sensors and a multi layers defence system. Even an AESA radar such as the Phantom Strike would have a more limted range against maritime targets. Thus the target would likely see and be able to engage a FA-50 on a strike mission before it gets into range.

          The primary mission we want an aircraft like the FA-50 to undertake is air policing, showing the flag to long range bomber and MPA aircraft. We would not intend it to go head to head with other fighters or engage something like a DDG. It would be to show the Russians that we have close some of the backdoor to the UK. And if we are honest if we are to close it completely we would possible need some means of intercepting an air launched cruise missile as this is where our neighbour is vulnerable. They lack the means of intercepting such attacks and although the CAMM systems could provide some defence the Brits only plan to buy the standard version and not the CAMM-ER version.

          If we do want to have some form of "maritime strike" then lets arm the Navy first with the C-295 providing OTH targeting while staying out of range of shipborne SAMs.
          Equally CASA could do OTH targeting for FA-50 or Gripen

          a problem with the FA-50 being it lacks the integration of an anti-ship missile or medium range AAM ….. as indeed to most light fighters

          ranfe and endurance also being lower
          Last edited by DeV; 26 July 2022, 08:18.

          Comment


          • We could start by putting ANY sort of missile on a naval vessel.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DeV View Post

              Equally CASA could do OTH targeting for FA-50 or Gripen
              Target engagement yes. But a vanilla CASA MPA might take a fair bit of technical surgery and pots of cash to complete the kill chain for another platform or conduct it itself. Putting the Harpoon on the P-3K's 25 years ago was looked at and then quickly forgotten about when the dollars started to enter the hundreds of millions.

              Originally posted by DeV View Post
              a problem with the FA-50 being it lacks the integration of an anti-ship missile or medium range AAM ….. as indeed to most light fighters

              ranfe and endurance also being lower
              AGM-65 Maverick E2/L is already integrated and qualified into the current mission computer and E/LM-2032 fire control radar.

              With a new AESA GaN radar you will have pre integration into a wider suite of sensors and weapons. Sniper ATP now offered at Block 10 will give BVR targeting capability using the existing E/LM-2032. But scalable AESA GaN radars like the AN/APG-83 or AN/APG-79v4 which have now been given the green light by LM will do that in spades.

              “Potential candidates for the mid-range air-to-surface missile include Kongsberg and Raytheon's Joint Strike Missile (JSM), Roketsan's Stand-Off Missile (SOM), and the Taurus KEPD 350K-2 from Taurus Systems. That said, South Korea's Agency for Defense Development (ADD), which is also involved in the FA-50 upgrade, has also expressed its intension to develop such a missile.

              https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...-upgrade-plans

              One of the advances in the FA-50 of late due to the T-X programme was the ability to do both P&D and boom A2A refuelling as well as the addition of an extra 300 gallons fuel to extend range and endurance.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Anzac View Post

                Target engagement yes. But a vanilla CASA MPA might take a fair bit of technical surgery and pots of cash to complete the kill chain for another platform or conduct it itself. Putting the Harpoon on the P-3K's 25 years ago was looked at and then quickly forgotten about when the dollars started to enter the hundreds of millions.
                it would require an ability (on the C295 and the (insert fighter) to datalink probably

                C235 (not ours) has ability to carry Exocet…. Not sure about C295



                AGM-65 Maverick E2/L is already integrated and qualified into the current mission computer and E/LM-2032 fire control radar.

                With a new AESA GaN radar you will have pre integration into a wider suite of sensors and weapons. Sniper ATP now offered at Block 10 will give BVR targeting capability using the existing E/LM-2032. But scalable AESA GaN radars like the AN/APG-83 or AN/APG-79v4 which have now been given the green light by LM will do that in spades.

                “Potential candidates for the mid-range air-to-surface missile include Kongsberg and Raytheon's Joint Strike Missile (JSM), Roketsan's Stand-Off Missile (SOM), and the Taurus KEPD 350K-2 from Taurus Systems. That said, South Korea's Agency for Defense Development (ADD), which is also involved in the FA-50 upgrade, has also expressed its intension to develop such a missile.

                https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...-upgrade-plans

                One of the advances in the FA-50 of late due to the T-X programme was the ability to do both P&D and boom A2A refuelling as well as the addition of an extra 300 gallons fuel to extend range and endurance.
                Maverick range is about 22 km so well inside a semi-capable vessel’s engagement area

                good to know

                Comment


                • Let's look at the F15 ex seems to be flagged as 33% cheaper than the Raphael and grippen
                  "Why am I using a new putter? Because the last one didn't float too well." -Craig Stadler

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by gaff85 View Post
                    Let's look at the F15 ex seems to be flagged as 33% cheaper than the Raphael and grippen
                    Do the maths again there I'd say. It isn't even being mentioned as a failed contender in any recent competition involving Gen 4, 4.5 or 5 aircraft.
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by gaff85 View Post
                      Let's look at the F15 ex seems to be flagged as 33% cheaper than the Raphael and grippen
                      Why would you want to look at an aircraft that based on its USAF delivered Gross Weapon System price is $20 million more expensive to acquire than a F-35A and costs a further $5000 in cpfh.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                        Maverick range is about 22 km so well inside a semi-capable vessel’s engagement area

                        good to know
                        Even within its primary AAD screen of say an ESSM2 or SeaCeptor a pair of small fast movers vectoring at 600kts and 50 ft armed with AGM-65 will still cause most corvettes and frigates problems. Enough for the fast mover to stay out of their CIWS like Phalanx 1B and forcing them to use their soft decoy systems. It is a deterence factor in itself to possess a capability like Maverick, Penguin and Exocet. If a nation is out to disrupt by the use grey zone tactics such as AIDZ intrusions they will certainly not stop skirting the fringes of a countries territorial waters or loiter in shipping lanes with the EEZ with their vessels.

                        Comment


                        • The most modern vessels in the Russian Navy are the Admiral Gorshkov class of frigates. They are equipped with a 32 cell Redut VLS capable of launching 9M96 missiles (40km range) or the larger 9M96D (120km range). These are design to be able to engage low flying targets OTH with their active radar. The former has a top speed of 1000m/s meaning it would reach the AGM65 launching aircraft in 22 seconds! If the plane is using an AGM65E2/L it has to stay LoS of the target as these weapons are laser guided and need the target to lased!

                          The Admiral Gorshkov class also have the Palash CIWS equipped with the 9M337 Sosna-R missile (a bit like SeaRAM) so any missile would have to get passed this as well.

                          As of today there are not ASMs integrated onto the FA-50 and this would take time and money as it does not seem that the RoKAF sees an operational need to do so. They have bigger and more capable fighters plus a load of shore batteries of ASMs. Not to mention their substantial naval fleet equipped with a large number of ASMs.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                            As of today there are not ASMs integrated onto the FA-50 and this would take time and money as it does not seem that the RoKAF sees an operational need to do so. They have bigger and more capable fighters plus a load of shore batteries of ASMs. Not to mention their substantial naval fleet equipped with a large number of ASMs.
                            The fact that the RoKAF have an inventory of highly capable strike aircraft has no bearing on what KAI and LM and their export driven commercial strategy for the FA-50's development will deliver to other end users to meet their requirements. The selection of a ASEA GaN radar like the scalable APG-79(V)4 will open up the aircraft to deliver the weapons and sensors that are already integrated into the APG-79(V)4. When the RNZAF upgraded the A-4K in the early nineties with the Westinghouse APG-66 multi-mode radar we were able to deploy the same combat systems that were found on then current F-16A Block 15 that at that time used the same radar and software tape loaded into the Smith Nav/Attack computer. Instantly we had AIM-9L Sidewinder, GBU-16 Laser Guided Bomb and the AGM-65 Maverick family.

                            In 2014 KAI qualified the anti-ship variant of the AGM-65 on the FA-50.

                            Comment


                            • Reports from the Korean Defence Blog are that the Polish will receive from next year 12 TA-50 Block II’s, which are effectively Block 0 FA-50 sans Link 16. From now on all T-50 derivatives will be built on the base FA-50 airframe including the standard LIFT T-50. The following 36 FA-50 PL Block 20 aircraft of the 48 aircraft order valued at USD$2.3 Billion will follow between 2025-2026. Once they are delivered the 12 Block 0 aircraft will be upgraded to Block 20 standard to achieve fleet commonality, which is to include an AESA radar.

                              The TA-50 Block-II is full-spec FA-50 without Link-16 equipment. It retains full combat capability, survivability, and airframe of the FA-50. In contrast, original TA-50 used T-50 airframe. All T-50 variants produced now are built upon the FA-50 airframe because original T-50 airframe is no longer in production. FA-50 airframe has slightly different vertical stabilizer and other minor changes compared to the T-50. Distinction between new-build T-50, TA-50, and FA-50 now all comes down to internal equipment.

                              The Drive has a good summary of the deal as well.

                              The FA-50 is a fairly logical choice for Poland, as they operate the Block 52+ F-16C/Ds and will be getting the F-35A, as well. FA-50s are remarkably capable in the configuration Poland will be getting them in, which includes an AESA radar. They will be able to execute precision attack missions and air policing duties, as well as work as advanced trainers and even adversaries for Poland's rapidly evolving advanced air combat fleet. They can do these things at a fraction of the cost of, say, an F-35A, and preserve precious airframe life on more advanced types. It isn't clear at this time what aircraft they will replace, but Poland needs to displace its aging Soviet-era MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-22 Fitter fleet. The FA-50 seems like a very cost-effective but capable way of doing so.

                              https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...s-k9-howitzers

                              Elsewhere it suggests that the radar selected for the FA-50 PL potentially could be the SABR APG-83 as it is part of the Polish F-16 Viper upgrade and the rationale behind the FA-50 acquisition was to achieve as much commonality with the Polish F-16 as possible. Moreover that the Taurus 350K-2 antiship missile will be of eventual interest to the Poles as well.

                              ​​​​​​https://gbp.com.sg/stories/taurus-sy...k-2-prototype/

                              Comment


                              • The T50/FA50 is racking up a number of orders, an oder from Columbia, a top-up from Indonesia and now the Polish order. Interestingly earlier in the year Wiki had Ireland as a future potential user but that community has since removed that speculation. The FA-50PL would be a fantastic piece of kit to have and a squadron or two would not only finally provide us with an air defence capability but also do more for recruiting than any amount of other advertising. If only Newbridge had not already killed off any chance of it happening, it would be something to look forward too.

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