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  • there must be a dozen air forces nearer home that they could exchange with........@ropebag, rear crew on the Casa can find work if they are prepared to use their imaginations; police aircrew, SAR rear crew, coastguard, cargo loadmaster or flight engineer, if they are prepared to travel.

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    • Other than the UK or US, where could they go that have english as a first language?
      For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, which is published, but after discussion with parties in government will probably commence being implemented in May or June... or July.. hopefully

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      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        Other than the UK or US, where could they go that have english as a first language?
        Canada? I mean avoiding that french zone over there...

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        • The quebecoise are everywhere.
          For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, which is published, but after discussion with parties in government will probably commence being implemented in May or June... or July.. hopefully

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          • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
            There will still be 46 Hornet airframes up for grabs as the Cannucks are taking 25 and flying 18. They paid just A$95m for the actual airframes (But the total project will be around CND$350m). They may have been delivered 30 years ago but had the HUG3.1 upgrade to A++ only a few years ago so in effect they are amongst the most capable Legacy Hornets out there. I don't know what airframe time they have today, but in 2012 following the fleet audit they had around 4600 hours each and have averaged 160 hours p.a since, with only 10 having the CBR completed - the rest were fine. The F/A-18 was designed for 6000 hours, however the Canadian airframes have gone over that, but that 6000 hour life limit was based on constant carrier use, which the RCAF and RAAF birds have never done. The Cannucks are banking on getting 8000 hours out of them until type is withdrawn in 2032.
            Even if we got them for free we could not afford to fly them with the current budget. A single F/A18 costs around €3m a year to operate! Last year the AC had an operational budget of €18m (excluding pay and allowances).

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            • The thing is, Ireland is perfectly capable of affording and operating a batch of second hand fighters. The State airline operated a highly varied fleet of expensive aircraft and for most of it's existence, the State owned the aircraft outright and paid the bills, as well as having another aerial arm, the company known as Irish Helicopters, whose helicopters were every bit as expensive to buy and operate as anything the AC had and in some cases, were more expensive. Also, the State airline was a launch customer for the Boeing 747, which, from day 1, drank fuel, oil and spares at a voracious rate, as did the previous generation of Boeings such as the 707 and the 737-200. The irony was that the State argued the toss over the cost of the Fougas in the early 70s and whinged over every penny spent, yet had no bother shelling out for 737s and BAC 1-11s, which didnt come cheap. In fairness, EI was horsing money away like snuff at a wake but it cleaned up it's act considerably right up to it's sale to IAG and these days, for it's size, it's one of the better parts of IAG...Three million euros to run an F18 for a year is expensive but so is running an A330, which will set you back a couple of hundred million to buy. 18 million for an operational budget, for an air arm, for which sum, you must do everything inside and outside the wire, is small potatoes and evidence of the real lack of interest in the AC by the State. Just the other day, they said they'd put together a hundred million, with half supplied by the EU, to shore up beef farmers, just like that. So, you can guess where the priority of the DF lies in the overall scheme.

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              • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                The thing is, Ireland is perfectly capable of affording and operating a batch of second hand fighters. The State airline operated a highly varied fleet of expensive aircraft and for most of it's existence, the State owned the aircraft outright and paid the bills, as well as having another aerial arm, the company known as Irish Helicopters, whose helicopters were every bit as expensive to buy and operate as anything the AC had and in some cases, were more expensive. Also, the State airline was a launch customer for the Boeing 747, which, from day 1, drank fuel, oil and spares at a voracious rate, as did the previous generation of Boeings such as the 707 and the 737-200. The irony was that the State argued the toss over the cost of the Fougas in the early 70s and whinged over every penny spent, yet had no bother shelling out for 737s and BAC 1-11s, which didnt come cheap. In fairness, EI was horsing money away like snuff at a wake but it cleaned up it's act considerably right up to it's sale to IAG and these days, for it's size, it's one of the better parts of IAG...Three million euros to run an F18 for a year is expensive but so is running an A330, which will set you back a couple of hundred million to buy. 18 million for an operational budget, for an air arm, for which sum, you must do everything inside and outside the wire, is small potatoes and evidence of the real lack of interest in the AC by the State. Just the other day, they said they'd put together a hundred million, with half supplied by the EU, to shore up beef farmers, just like that. So, you can guess where the priority of the DF lies in the overall scheme.
                Except commercial aircraft prove a commercial return and a finance income

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                • The margins are pretty tight these days. Air fungus are one of the few airlines who still buy their own aircraft. Leasing is normal in most similar sized operations. Who ownes the stobart aircraft operated as aer lingus commuters?
                  For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, which is published, but after discussion with parties in government will probably commence being implemented in May or June... or July.. hopefully

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                  • And many of those leasing companies are Irish based

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                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      The margins are pretty tight these days. Air fungus are one of the few airlines who still buy their own aircraft. Leasing is normal in most similar sized operations. Who ownes the stobart aircraft operated as aer lingus commuters?
                      Oddly enough a company that happens to be part owned by its parent company.
                      Last edited by CTU; 30 July 2019, 23:21.
                      It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                      It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                      It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                      It was the year everything changed.

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                      • Aer Fungus does utilise leased aircraft as well as operating its own aircraft. Normally this is done for peak periods where the fleet is not enough.
                        At present 14 out of the top 15 leasing companies are based in Ireland owning more than 5000 aircraft and together they have ordered 17,000 new aircraft to be delivered in the next 10 years (that's around $1 trillion).

                        As a country we could afford not just second-hand aircraft but brand new aircraft. Many Irish will travel to Bulgaria as it is a very cheap holiday destination but they have just ordered brand new F16V's. A place where the average Irish man can have a great night out for less than the cost of a pint at home can afford new top of the line jets but we can't............................................. .......

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                        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                          Aer Fungus does utilise leased aircraft as well as operating its own aircraft. Normally this is done for peak periods where the fleet is not enough.
                          At present 14 out of the top 15 leasing companies are based in Ireland owning more than 5000 aircraft and together they have ordered 17,000 new aircraft to be delivered in the next 10 years (that's around $1 trillion).

                          As a country we could afford not just second-hand aircraft but brand new aircraft. Many Irish will travel to Bulgaria as it is a very cheap holiday destination but they have just ordered brand new F16V's. A place where the average Irish man can have a great night out for less than the cost of a pint at home can afford new top of the line jets but we can't............................................. .......
                          Bulgaria is in a more 'interesting' part of the world and on the Black sea. Affordability isn't the reason why we don't have F-16s. It's a case of differing priorities. I'm sure Bulgarian public spending is far below ours in all other areas.

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                          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                            The margins are pretty tight these days. Air fungus are one of the few airlines who still buy their own aircraft. Leasing is normal in most similar sized operations. Who ownes the stobart aircraft operated as aer lingus commuters?
                            Lingus owns about a third of it's fleet. These days, the make up of the fleet is decided by IAG. The Stobart aircraft are owned by a UK concern and fly into small regional airports for EI and act as a feeder airline for our A330 transatlantic flights.

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                            • Back in the day, the aircraft made less money than any other part of the Aer Lingus operation. In fact, the hotels and associated touriat operation the original Group used to own, made more money than the aircraft did. Aircraft maintenance, the training schools for pilots and mechs and the hire of our pilots and mechs abroad made a pile of money, as did the Irish Helis and Aer Turas operations. The aircraft themselves made more money from cargo than from fares, despite it being a near monopoly at the time. My point is that the State always found money for new airframes, even through recessions, for Lingus and IH, and they were not operated at anything near a commercial return (or rather, to the level aircraft are operated these days) and they cost multiples of the cost of the aircraft bought for the Don. My point is that the State, even in poorer times, always found the money for it's non-military aviation (AC pilots used to drool about the Bell UH-1N and the B0-105 operated by IH) and always kept the AC (and the wider DF) budget on a very tight leash, despite the constant demand to wring as much as possible out of each airframe. At least, the AC has found that leasing works and makes operating for State third parties (Gardai, DFA) easier. Even Beech, as the competitor to the PC-9, made an offer to run the entire cadet syllabus and further PC-9 type operations with four Beech T-6s. In fact, I'd say that the State, in time, will commercialise as much of the AC's operation as is possible and farm it out to third parties. If you look at the RAF, for example, virtually all operations not directly involved with combat or war operations are privatised and the organisation is a shadow of it's Cold War size. Apart from that, going back to the original topic about defence of the airspace, Ireland could easily lease a squadron or sub unit of a squadron of combat aircraft from the manufacturer. If you went to Saab and the Swedish Govt for the rolling lease of a dozen Gripens (four on station at all times), they'd bite your hand off for the work. It would probaly cost no more to the State than leasing an A330 for Lingus. Cheaper than owning them, by a long shot.....The thing about the Irish State is that it has a continued habit of moaning about money, yet it has always found it when it really needs it. and when it suits it to find it.

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                              • The point I’m making is that commercial operations and some public service operations can easily do a cost benefit analysis and find that it will be generate more income than it costs or be cost neutral.

                                You can’t (properly) cost having a safe and secure (militarily) environment.... and successive DoD, DPER/DoF and Governments see it that way. We have a safe and secure environment due to our location (close to the U.K. (ie if there is an issue they will have to deal with it as it will be an issue for them as well due to our proximity)) and our remoteness from mainland Europe and some other less stable parts of the world.

                                I’m not saying it’s right - especially with our geographic position on the edge of the strategic sea lanes and airways of the eastern Atlantic, our massed MNCs, our dependence on imports & exports and our small open economy.... but that’s the way it is.

                                To a degree they are right as well but politically we say we are non-aligned and neutral (can we say that as members of the EU?), while if there is a major war we would more than likely see our “allies” occupy at least some of our facilities.

                                We claim to be an independent neutral country but we aren’t (not have we ever been). If we want to make that claim then we have to be capable of defending ourselves against all comers (including superpowers).

                                If we aren’t then we should just join NATO .... which of course will also mean spending more and being more capable.

                                But ..... we do our own thing

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