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  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Ever since we replaced the sea fires with vampires we have been downgrading our air defence capability. We went from the equivalent of the F16 of its day to a 1st gen jet trainer, which we replaced with.... a 1st gen jet trainer that didnt have ejector seats. More recently replacing that with a turbo prop trainer with ejector seats. It's like we have maintained vigorously our 1950s level of capability.
    It is great to see the discussion is being had by experts in the field. The required investment is scary though.
    It would take at least a billion, today to get us in the game, including primary radar operated by Air Corps.
    That's before you consider where the staff will come from. Consider the logs trail, and the extra staff this capability growth would require.
    How do Finland manage?
    I suppose they don't have to hit the ground from a standing start, their investment is just building on last generation investment rather than as you say trying to move from the 50's to the 2020's (also they have a budget over over 3 billion rather than our 1 billion). It's a huge issue that isn't going to get any cheaper if there's intention to change it. But yeah it's interesting that we are actually having such debates/discussions and they are being reported.
    Another issue that I just thought of, how long before you'd have complaints from the rest of Dublin if you had significant increase in jet noise from Baldonnel?

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    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      Ever since we replaced the sea fires with vampires we have been downgrading our air defence capability. We went from the equivalent of the F16 of its day to a 1st gen jet trainer, which we replaced with.... a 1st gen jet trainer that didnt have ejector seats. More recently replacing that with a turbo prop trainer with ejector seats. It's like we have maintained vigorously our 1950s level of capability.
      It is great to see the discussion is being had by experts in the field. The required investment is scary though.
      It would take at least a billion, today to get us in the game, including primary radar operated by Air Corps.
      That's before you consider where the staff will come from. Consider the logs trail, and the extra staff this capability growth would require.
      How do Finland manage?
      How does Finland manage? With over 3 times our defence budget

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      • The finns also, in the 90s managed to jump from ancient saab draken and mig 21 to F18. The rest of their military air arm otherwise bore striking similarities to ours. They also used fougas, learjets and currently use pc12 and casa 295.
        This from a country with a population of just over 5.5m, living alongside a neighbour who occupied them many times in their history. Also PFP and EU members.

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        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          The finns also, in the 90s managed to jump from ancient saab draken and mig 21 to F18. The rest of their military air arm otherwise bore striking similarities to ours. They also used fougas, learjets and currently use pc12 and casa 295.
          This from a country with a population of just over 5.5m, living alongside a neighbour who occupied them many times in their history. Also PFP and EU members.
          They also historically I think had a stronger economy than we did pre-90's which would have had an impact, along with of course the fact that they run Conscription.

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          • I see no one is covering the embarrassment of a former Ambassador standing up and rigorously trying to claim that "Ireland never has, nor never would, resort to calling in the British for assistance for air support".

            She was laughed out of the room

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            • Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
              I see no one is covering the embarrassment of a former Ambassador standing up and rigorously trying to claim that "Ireland never has, nor never would, resort to calling in the British for assistance for air support".

              She was laughed out of the room
              Which fecking Ambassador did that, Christ what a disgrace.

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              • Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
                I see no one is covering the embarrassment of a former Ambassador standing up and rigorously trying to claim that "Ireland never has, nor never would, resort to calling in the British for assistance for air support".

                She was laughed out of the room
                Yes - that was the talk of the place today. Either DFA are completely ignorant of the situation or they choose to lie. One of the ex Air Corps participants was apparently abused by the DFA for saying that we had no primary radar cover of our airspace.
                “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
                ― Thucydides

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                • Originally posted by Shaqra View Post
                  Yes - that was the talk of the place today. Either DFA are completely ignorant of the situation or they choose to lie. One of the ex Air Corps participants was apparently abused by the DFA for saying that we had no primary radar cover of our airspace.
                  Wait is this former Ambassador still part of the DFA or not? I wouldn't be surprised if few if any within DFA would be aware whether we have Primary Radar systems.

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                  • Originally posted by Shaqra View Post
                    Yes - that was the talk of the place today. Either DFA are completely ignorant of the situation or they choose to lie. One of the ex Air Corps participants was apparently abused by the DFA for saying that we had no primary radar cover of our airspace.
                    Were they willing to point out where our primary radar are? Because otherwise, the man spoke the truth that was nor a secret.

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                    • It was heresy beyond bearing, since it was true.

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                      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                        Were they willing to point out where our primary radar are? Because otherwise, the man spoke the truth that was nor a secret.
                        Where are they?
                        Dublin Airport
                        Shannon Airport
                        Cork Airport

                        All have primary radars

                        Then there mobile DF radars (when deployed)

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                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          Where are they?
                          Dublin Airport
                          Shannon Airport
                          Cork Airport

                          All have primary radars

                          Then there mobile DF radars (when deployed)
                          Speek engrish man.
                          The Air Corps have no primary radar. They have no access to Irish ATC information. They barely have access to the Airspace within the don itself. Anything taking off needs permission from Dublin first. Anyone flying with transponder off is invisible.
                          The Mobile Radar used by the DF are again for local control only, and only useful in the air defence role, not for vectoring aircraft onto other flying targets.
                          The Primary radar at the location you mention are purely for local ATC only. Not much use at the boundary between Ourselves and Shanwick.

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                          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                            Speek engrish man.
                            The Air Corps have no primary radar. They have no access to Irish ATC information. They barely have access to the Airspace within the don itself. Anything taking off needs permission from Dublin first. Anyone flying with transponder off is invisible.
                            The Mobile Radar used by the DF are again for local control only, and only useful in the air defence role, not for vectoring aircraft onto other flying targets.
                            The Primary radar at the location you mention are purely for local ATC only. Not much use at the boundary between Ourselves and Shanwick.
                            Anyone flying within primary radar coverage of those 3 airports is visible (even with no transponder off).

                            Is it good enough no but that is fact

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                            • It is a pity then that our airspace extends much further north, south eas and west from those airports.

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                              • Offical attitudes to defence in Ireland have been ever the same - spend as little as we can get away with and rely on Britain as our shield.
                                It mightn't be a particularly noble attitude, but I suppose you'd have to say that it has worked out thus far.

                                Even fen See Chermans were rampaging across Europe, landing agents within the state and accidentally bombing Dublin, we did no more to prepare for the defence of our airspace than buy a handful of Gladiator biplanes and a couple of Hurricanes.

                                Maybe it comes from the realisation that if we ever attacked by a serious adversary, any resistance that even the best airforce we could possibly afford would be no more than token.

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