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  • RAF introduced austere air to ground capability to their Tranche 1’s in 2008
    https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircraft/typhoon-fgr4/

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    • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
      The Eurofighter does cost a lot to keep servicable and cpfh rates are pretty steep which is why most "New" Europe countries are likely to keep going for the JAS-39 and F-16. However, would the EU do a deal whereby the early airframes are gifted or sold cheap but with any required upgrade is paid for by the buyer Baltic nation and NATO subsidises the flight operations and training assistance programme? The US has never been adverse to doing excess defence article deals to move old stock and for bi-lateral - strategic reasons.

      Airbus Defence are developing an upgrade package for Tranche 1 birds that integrates Tranche 2 and 3 capabilities and last year iirc Spain are the lead customer. The is a follow up downstream with Meteor integration and E-Scan radar.

      All operational Tranche 1 have been upgraded to Block 5 for some years now.
      Given the Austrian experience you'd have to wonder would there be many takers for hand me down airframes? They estimate the hourly operating cost at a whopping at €70,000 for their 12 Trance 1 Block 5 aircraft.

      Regarding the B61 and a possibe Eurofighter integration, US industry provided the Germans with a 3-5 year timeframe for same. They would, wouldn't they?

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      • Experience may have shown how slow upgrades are on the Eurofighter.

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        • what on earth are they doing that costs 70 grand an hour? that must be them dividing the cost of computers and absolutely every other spare part and manhour consumed over hours flown?!! Even the fuel cost alone is only a few thousand per flight?

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          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
            what on earth are they doing that costs 70 grand an hour? that must be them dividing the cost of computers and absolutely every other spare part and manhour consumed over hours flown?!! Even the fuel cost alone is only a few thousand per flight?
            They are certainly "accounting" figures that include fuel, crew, spares and most importantly depreciation. (Which you wouldn't have on a gifted aircraft)

            But it's actually right in the ballpark. Cost to the RAF is £70k with Germany at €74k.

            For comparison the USAF puts the hourly cost of a long paid for F16 at around $25k. Sweden claim circa $7k for the Gripen. Very affordable.

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            • How does the KAI FA50 compare?
              Given that we haven't the political will for anything remotely agressive, let alone the financial ability, Does the KAI FA50 offer anything in terms of value for money? Argentina intend to replace their Skyhawks with the type (once the Coronavirus thing passes).
              Indonesia got 16 T50 for $400m. Phillipines got 12 FA50 for $420m

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              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                How does the KAI FA50 compare?
                Given that we haven't the political will for anything remotely agressive, let alone the financial ability, Does the KAI FA50 offer anything in terms of value for money? Argentina intend to replace their Skyhawks with the type (once the Coronavirus thing passes).
                Indonesia got 16 T50 for $400m. Phillipines got 12 FA50 for $420m
                It is a capable light fighter with a lot of American know how in the design and fit out. I would be out off purely by the lack of local operators in Europe with the resulting supply chain complications and lack of local operational experience to draw on.

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                • I think it shares lots of commonality with the F16, in terms of engine and avionics, its just packaged in a different airframe.

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                  • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                    Given the Austrian experience you'd have to wonder would there be many takers for hand me down airframes? They estimate the hourly operating cost at a whopping at €70,000 for their 12 Trance 1 Block 5 aircraft.

                    Regarding the B61 and a possibe Eurofighter integration, US industry provided the Germans with a 3-5 year timeframe for same. They would, wouldn't they?
                    The €70,000 is the system cost per hours, this includes not just the cost directly related to a flight hour but also the fly-away cost, R&D, weapons, spares, infrastructure and all the ground support equipment. This is different from what is included in the hour costs quoted by Saab for the JAS-39 which only covers the spares. Always be careful with costs and what is included and what not.

                    The Spanish claim that the Eurofighter requires only 9 hours f maintenance per flight hour compared to 27.5 for the F/A-18A.
                    http://www.defensa.gob.es/Galerias/p...UROFIGHTER.pdf
                    Last edited by EUFighter; 11 April 2020, 22:14.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      How does the KAI FA50 compare?
                      Given that we haven't the political will for anything remotely agressive, let alone the financial ability, Does the KAI FA50 offer anything in terms of value for money? Argentina intend to replace their Skyhawks with the type (once the Coronavirus thing passes).
                      Indonesia got 16 T50 for $400m. Phillipines got 12 FA50 for $420m
                      The T-50 is powered by the GE F404 which can be found on the JAS-39 (A-D) and the F/A18 (A-D). It has an Israeli radar the EL/M-2032, which is similar to the AN/APG-68 of F16C/D's. The aircraft was first designed as a modern advanced trainer and then into a light weight fighter with the FA-50 variant, so very similar to the T-38/F-5 development. As we would only be using it for air policing it would be perfectly capable of performing this task. It would not be expected to go head-to-head with 5th generation fighters but rather intercept and shadow unresponsive aircraft entering IAA controlled airspace.

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                      • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                        The T-50 is powered by the GE F404 which can be found on the JAS-39 (A-D) and the F/A18 (A-D). It has an Israeli radar the EL/M-2032, which is similar to the AN/APG-68 of F16C/D's. The aircraft was first designed as a modern advanced trainer and then into a light weight fighter with the FA-50 variant, so very similar to the T-38/F-5 development. As we would only be using it for air policing it would be perfectly capable of performing this task. It would not be expected to go head-to-head with 5th generation fighters but rather intercept and shadow unresponsive aircraft entering IAA controlled airspace.
                        But it can't be used for VIP transport (or even air ambulance) so it would never be deemed suitable for Irish needs by the decision makers...
                        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                          But it can't be used for VIP transport (or even air ambulance) so it would never be deemed suitable for Irish needs by the decision makers...
                          It can be used as a VIP transport, there is a seat in the back! Don't know where the dog is suppose to fit?

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                          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                            It can be used as a VIP transport, there is a seat in the back! Don't know where the dog is suppose to fit?
                            Doesn't even need to land to let the Minister out to reopen the Off Licences when the Lockdown is lifted.
                            It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                            It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                            It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                            It was the year everything changed.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CTU View Post
                              Doesn't even need to land to let the Minister out to reopen the Off Licences when the Lockdown is lifted.
                              Can do a victory role above the offie

                              Comment


                              • The RoKAF report low maintenance man-hours per flight hour (MMH/FH) of 5.2 with their FA-50 fleet and a US$5500 operational cost per flight hour (OCP/FH) which is a third of their F-16K's.

                                As the aircraft was originally designed as a advanced supersonic trainer its annual flight utilisation rate was targeted to be 360 hours per annum over a 25 year period with an airframe lifespan of 8500 hours. This is around double of other combat aircraft such as the F-16 or F-18 in which 250 hours p.a is regarded as heavy utilisation and around 160-180 annual hours per airframe on squadron is normal. Which for small budget air forces like the Phillipines with just 12 airframes is a huge factor in that it can mean a smaller fleet required to meet training outputs (both pilot and wider force needs as JTAC for ground forces and ship strike simulations) yet retain the latent capacity to generate within that an operational flight of 4-6 airframes for air constabulary roles such as airspace interceptions/patrols.

                                They are rolling out Block upgrades over the next few years such as CFT hump and A2A refuelling (both boom load and P&D), fitting of the EL/M-2052 AESA radar, integrating Saab-MBDA Taurus KEPD 350-K2 anti-ship missile, and swapping the uprated F-414M powerplant instead of the standard F-404-102 which will give 18% more power. Sniper AN/AAQ-33 (ATP-SE) is already on the options list such as BVR capabilities which the Phillipines added on three of their airframes. Those solutions should all solve the initial inadequacies of the FA-50 in terms of range, power to weight, lack of an adequate maritime strike capability and BVR engagement. Capabilities needed in the real world to take it from being a 2nd tier also ran to being a very competitive player not just on cost but capability.

                                KAI are expecting to integrate further capabilities via pylon mountings such as Rafael’s Sky Shield Electronic Jamming Pod and Elta's ELM-2060P Pod which would give the FA-50 to detect moving ground targets up to distance 170 km away in day - night in all-weathers.

                                The FA-50 is a parts bin aircraft other than the airframe using widely know western defence component suppliers and of course has the global sustainability and support footprint of Lockheed Martin behind it.

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